Believer:

I will try but must qualify my remarks as being nothing more than my opinion. I learned something pretty powerful this week from my counselor -- appreciation and recognition of achievement are two very powerful seducers. That was certainly true in my case and to me, it sounds like your H is in the same mode.

Like most A's, I suspect, your H's started as an EA. Helping the OW out I am sure gave him quite a charge and a tremendous feeling of being needed. He may have not felt that with you for whatever reason -- poor communication on his part, complacency on his part and yours or perhaps, you are the strong, independent, stable type that may have left him with the impression that you really didn't need him. Someone else did and wow, he got to put on that shining armor for the day...then another day...and another. Before you know it, a year has past.

Given the history you described for the OW, she probably is a repeat offender and chances are, he will end up a victim. Sadly, you can't make him see that. He needs to come to that conclusion on his own.

I see his want/need/attempts at reconciliation as a positive for your M. It shows me there is hope. Even though he is realizing some positive, powerful ego stroke from his relationship with the needy OW, he can not emotionally remove himself from you or your M. The fact that he comes around every 10 days tells me something.

What to do? Color me clueless. You could play the game and test his reaction -- do something to demonstrate that you need him. Play to his strength -- perhaps he fixes things well around the house, if so, play that card. It very well may jog his memory a bit and create a slight breeze to lift the fog, even if for a short time. Any clarity is clarity and it may lead to something more positive for you both.

You may also talk sympathetically to him about his not being able to retire -- something he always wanted -- because of the present circumstances. He may open up to you on the topic. Be understanding, but direct the conversation toward those things he is giving up, things he always wanted to do, by not retiring. Be sympathetic and understanding, not judgemental. If y'all planned on traveling once he retired, mention it. That too may help him snap out of it.

I probably violated every rule known to MB with this advice. But I'm just throwing out suggestions, from the viewpoint of bottom feeding WS.

All the best. Do what you have to do but keep your safety and sanity in mind.

LB

Thanks for the advice. I will try that. I have been very independent and very unsympathetic.

I am changing the way I feel about him. I do love him, and hate for him to lose everything.

Believer:

Good luck. I read your post again and have given it more thought. You mentioned that these actions are totally out of character for your H. That doesn't surprise me.

For whatever reason, he got involved in an A. Nothing can justify it, but it happened. He was seeking something and found it, probably because like me, he wasn't able to sit down with his W and say "I feel very vulnerable because I need this or that from our relationship."

The emotional attachment grew and he moved in with the OW. Naturally, you were upset, devastated and betrayed. Your H found himself in a very conflicted world.

Those "needs" were being filled by the OW as a reward for being needed and helping her out. Those things lifted his spirits and made him feel better about himself and some twisted way, justified his actions. Meanwhile, he sought reconciliation with you repeatedly.

But chances are, the A created (and justifiably so) anger and hurt, which you expressed from the day of discovery on. He wanted back, but perhaps his dealings with you were marked with this anger and hurt. The "safe place," even though it may be a facade, existed with the OW who filled his life with the "good stuff."

From his actions, I don't think he has given up on you or the M. He very well be a victim of basic learned responses. Like a rat in one of those tests -- he avoids places where he gets shocked and seeks places where there is a reward.

Does this justify the A. Absolutely not. It's just my take on the situation from this vantage point. Love him for what he was and and is capable of being. Don't feel sorry for what he may lose in all of this and allow those feelings to determine your actions. Rather, work with him on what he may gain by returning to the M.

My two cents and probably worth nothing more....

LB

Lostbird - I'm so happy you are here today. I talked to WH last night about retirement, the plans we had, etc.

I told him that I didn't want his life to spiral down anymore than it had. Well guess what. He hugged me and told me he was so glad that he married me. And get this - He is going to go in today, tell them he changed his mind, and ask them if they will still give him a chance to retire.

So I don't know if this is good for me or not. But I have really changed since I came to this place. I no longer hate the OW or am even mad at WH. I do think they made a mistake that caused a lot of pain, but don't want them to have miserable lives.

lostbird -

Just talked to WH. He went in and asked if he could still get the offer to retire, and they said yes. So he signed the papers and now will be retiring.

Last Friday, he had turned down the offer, and that was the final date. But after I took your advice, he tried again and was accepted.

So thanks to you, he will now start on a new life. He is still with OW, but told me today that I have been a good helpmate and that he loves me. I have peace about this, because I decided that I have changed. I want him to have a good life, with or without me. I believe he is a good man.

Lostbird

I have so many questions for you as a WS about some of the things my WH does. I am going to try to go back and read all your posts on this thread before I reask things you have already talked about. If I have any questions about your feelings during certain times can I ask you? If you don't feel like answering I understand. I just really need some help understanding my WH, where he is, why he did this. I am not particularly waiting for him to come home anymore as I feel recovery for me is just not possible. But I still need to understand. I am a grudge type of a person, I hold one forever. Therefore, recovery isn't in my life with him. It has taken me all this time to realize this. I still need some understanding. I will post back after I read this whole thread, which may take me a couple of days.

Thanks.

NY

HopefulinNY:

I will do what I can to help. Everyone is different but I suspect the WS plague has a lot of common symptoms.

I am sorry you are here. Heck, I'm sorry all of us are here but just the same, being here helps. Coming here keeps me from just throwing up my hands, giving up and living the remaining years as a hermit.

Others far wiser than I will probably advise you to toss the grudge. I suspect that holding a grudge is little more than a negative emotion that will prevent you from fully feeling happiness. Ridding yourself of those feelings will probably be quite liberating.

Let me know how I can help. Trust me, I am no expert on anything. But I may be able to offer a shred of insight.

LB

lostbird - I know you are no expert, but your advice worked for me. My WH is now retiring. It is like a miracle for me.

Okay LB,

I read this whole thread, took a long time believe me. These are my concerns......WH came back into marriage for six weeks, went through withdrawals and then left for OW. What do you think it takes to get through the fog? I have tried plan A, we are now in Plan B, but there are so many things like the house, the finances, our son, stuff like that it is really hard to be in a total Plan B like it says to be. He left his 3 YO Son, behind. He has depression and he won't do anything about it. He was on Paxil for about 6-7 months and he was the greatest man I ever met. I told him that and he just looked at me and said I didn't like them I didn't think it made any difference to me. I wish I could just sit down with him and say, please try Anti-Ds again and then relook at life. But he won't, and none of his family members are with me. They just don't see the depression I guess, or they are used to it. He has consulted with an attorney now, I just found out today. I am sure OW has talked him into that. I have never wanted anyone to die before her, and I ask for forgiveness everyday for feeling that way. She has a 4 YO son and it makes me feel terrible that I have those feelings.

He has become a total scumbag. I am dead serious, I don't think he even showers. My mom said his hair is always stringy and greasy. I don't understand when he will hit the bottom of the pit. When will he hit rock bottom and say I need help? Any suggestions on what I can do to get him on meds? He really needs help, but won't admit it. This would be a really great first step for him. Thanks.

NY

okay lostbird, i just read this entire thread and my questions to you are:
have you NC the OW yet?
if so are you back at home?

Believer:

Wonderful news. It's a step and progress is progress. Let's hope there are more positive changes coming soon.

LB

LB,

I posted to you up above with my story and some questions if you want to answer them. Thanks.

NY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

HopefulinNY:

I suggest you read more about Plan B and some of the posts associated with your situation -- keeping the terms of Plan B while dealing with finances, the house, your son, etc. That does get complicated, but I am certain there are some great solutions posted that will help.

Getting your H to reconsider anti-D's may be a chore since from what you wrote, it sounds like he is in a serious state of denial. Since he won't listen to you, is there a close friend that may be able to get through to him? Someone that you both know, he trusts and is also concerned about your H's condition would be ideal. His family may not deal well with problems such as this, or problems at all -- I grew up in an environment like that where the answer to addressing a problem was ignoring it. A friend or co-worker may help most in this situation. As a fog dweller, I doubt he will pay much attention to you so enlisting the help of someone else that is concerned is the best course -- my opinion.

Does his doctor know that he is no longer taking the medication? You may encourage your H to see the doctor for a follow-up. Perhaps there is other medication better suited for your H and his condition if he didn't find the Paxil helpful. Of course, I learned this week that some things are pyschological and only treated with proper therapy since medication won't help in those instances.

I believe an unkept appearance is one of the signs of depression. I can't imagine it being anything else unless he has been one to neglect his grooming and appearance in the past.

Good luck. Read up on Plan B and understand that it is designed to protect you. I hope you find someone who can get through to your H.

LB

LB

I pretty much took care of his grooming needs. I cut his hair and would say things to him like, can you cut your nose hairs. You know stuff to keep him motivated. He has had depression his whole life. He will not see the Dr. and his friends already told him he has lost his marbles, but he won't listen.

I spoke with him on the phone tonight about the railings and such. I told him I can't leave my house for two days, and he said he realizes that. I told him he is going to have to look at my face for the time he is here. I also asked him to make himself presentable, and he said don't I always? And I said well from what I have been told it doesn't look like you are showering these days, and he said I shower daily. I said Okay, well I am just telling you what I heard. He said okay. Hopefully he will at least brush his hair before he comes. I seriously felt like asking him to wash the stench from OW off before he came but I didn't of course. Well thanks LB for help. I am going to try to get him to think about Anti-Ds tomorrow. I will ask him to try them and look at life again then. A lot of water has passed under the bridge, but at least he could be a better father for our son.

NY

NY:

Thanks for the update. Depression is a real challenge and it is so unfortunate that your H has struggled with it for years. It will take him wanting to do something about it before he makes any progress there.

He is probably denying the fact that something is wrong. In your conversations about the anti-D's, remind him how good he felt when he was taking the medication. Dig into your memory bank and think of things that he enjoyed/the two of you enjoyed that you can work into the conversation.

Change is scary. If he has lived with depression this long, that feeling is normal to him.

Some advice -- exercise care in talking to him about second hand information. Even though your sources may be reliable (in this case, the subject of his personal grooming), I wouldn't confront him with things you "heard." If you have personal knowledge, that's another story. Otherwise, if what you heard isn't true, that's just another obstacle between the two of you.

Trust me, he can easily blow those little things out of proportion (she always accuses me of such and such) and that's fodder for the OW.

I do hope he maintains responsibility for your son and that relationship between to two of them can be as good as possible.

It's too bad his friends can't reach him. I hope they don't give up on him. Perhaps someone can break through.

LB

LB

I hated to ask him about his personal grooming in the first place. It was embarrassing to me, but my mother see's him twice a week when he picks up son and she said he is disgusting looking, and actually his own mother said the same thing to him. I hope he changes for the better, I don't think he can get any lower than he is right now.

I don't even know if I will ask him about the anti-ds or not. I am thinking I might just let him hit rock bottom, and then someday he will pick himself up.

I have told him what a wonderful husband he was when he was on the meds, and a wonderful man also. I told him he was patient, and generous and understanding and so much better. He just looked at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and didn't say anything at all.

I told him that he went off of them as soon as he started to feel better which is what most people do that is wrong. It takes months to feel better and stay that way, sometimes forever on meds. His A started one month after going off his meds, so even my IC told me their relationship won't last. Eventually he is going to need to get some help. I wish he would. I will keep you posted.

NY

lostbird -

Well I still feel great today. I was a little worried I would regret it, but taking the higher road feels good.

My WH has been very depressed too. He finally got a prescription for anti-D's but refuses to take them. I think once he retires, he will start feeling better. He has worked at the same place for 27 years and hates going to work.

Now he can work somewhere else, and take some time to do things that he has always wanted to do. So I am hoping that this will help him.

Believer:

Glad you are feeling better and hopefully, things will work out for you both. Since your H hated going to work, the retirement may give him the relief and freedom to access his life overall. And like you said, hopefully he will feel better.

All the best and keep your chin up.

LB

LB, did you write your NC letter yet?

lostbird

I talked to WH today. We were talking about financial things. He is so happy that he is going to retire. His OW is against that. Hehe.

We took a ride on the Harley and it was so nice. I feel like we are going to get back together again.