Hi,

I actually posted for the first time yesterday on the "In Recovery" site because I wasn't sure exactly where we were. I got some great responses, but after last night's conversation with H I definitely don't feel like we are recovering.

The background is this - cross-country move to attend his school, me at home with two small kids. Close friendship with classmate became EA and PA. We were "home" for Xmas when I found out. He went back there to her while I moved in with my parents. He emailed a few days later saying he wanted to commit, I went out to see him, and it was a disastrous week that ended with me coming back and him going back to OW. After weeks of "I don't know what to do" he is now here with me trying to recommit. He says he has made his choice, but it is entirely for rational reasons - the possibility we might be in love again, not wanting to destroy his kids' lives, and the statistics that suggest his relationship with her is doomed.

NC is not an option - he has three months left of school before he can even attempt it (I've tried negotiating quitting school - he says it's unreasonable). I feel as though I am in Plan A, but he has apparently already said goodbye to her and says he is trying to make our marriage work.

The +ve signs so far: he has "ended" his A, he has set up accountability partners in school and our pastor, and he has started to tell me when he's been in contact with her since.

But the -ve signs are huge. Yesterday we talked about everything again - he misses her so much and his heart is telling him to leave me. He says he does not love me anymore and that his love for her is the real thing (which, of course, he knows after a whole six months together which I'm told is plenty of time). He is going back next week and will be seeing her constantly, even if he tries to avoid contact (and I'm not sure he has the strength to do it). We don't know if/when I and the kids should go back - I asked him if my being there would push him towards her or pull him towards me and he doesn't know.

What do I do? His "commitment" is so tenuous. I know we can rebuild our marriage, but he wants to wait until he's over her. Which will not happen until he gives her up completely or doesn't see her anymore.

Is it wrong to want Plan B? This limbo is so hard. Part of me just wants to say "go to her, play it out, let the sorry little romance end as it surely will, and then let us work on things." But I know it's not that simple. I just feel like I'm in this holding pattern while I wait to see if his very shaky commitment will hold. But I don't want to discount the steps he's already taken....

Another thing I would appreciate would be any links to FWSs. He wishes he could get a sense of what his own recovery would look like - he misreads Dr. Harley's idea that it takes at least three weeks to get through the worst symptoms of withdrawal to mean that we shouldn't bother trying until he is totally over her (which will magically happen in three weeks) and that after that time "everything will fall into place" and we will be in love with each other again.

Please help if you can. I don't know what to say or do - I know there's nothing I can say to convince him to stay, but I don't want to make it easier to leave (I'm trying to avoid LBs as much as I can, but if he doesn't ever want to talk about anything, is my wanting to talk an LB?).

Thanks.

Have you done a good Plan A? If so might be time for Plan B?

H is wrong. He has to have NC with OW to get over the feelings. He needs to have NC with her to work on your marriage.

Does it count as Plan A if you are physically separated? When I went back after Christmas, I did my best to not push too hard, but to be a positive presence in his life (found MB site out there, so tried to avoid LBs). But I told him that while it was entirely his choice whether he wanted to pursue our R or his OW, I would not stay there if he wanted to be with her. So I left when we both realized he wanted to be with her.

For six weeks he was actively involved with OW while telling me they were just "good friends" and that he wanted me to come back to work things out. I kept insisting (lovingly and respectfully) that there was no way we could work on our marriage while OW was still in his life as the instability would prevent me from meeting his ENs.

After I asked him to stop sending me mixed messages and either say "yes" or "no" (so that I knew whether to start building a life out here), he said "yes" and came out. The positive/negative signs I mentioned in the last post are the result of that "commitment."

Our biggest problems are those of logistics - there is almost no support for me out there, and the thought of bringing my two small children out only to have his "commitment" fall apart really scares me. Does it make sense to say to myself "okay, I'll go back for the next three months while he has contact with OW on a daily basis with the knowledge that he'll likely slip up in order to do a great Plan A and then switch to Plan B if after school ends he doesn't give her up completely?" Do I willingly put myself in a situation where he can be a "cake eater"?

Right now it feels as though I'd rather just sit tight out here and wait until NC is even an option (beginning of June) and see where he is at then. I have been extremely clear over the past week while he has been here that I want to work on our marriage but that we simply cannot go forward while he is still emotionally attached to her. But I don't want to be "out of sight, out of mind."

And if I stay out here, there are a number of things we have to work out. I cannot live in my parents' basement much longer (I'll go crazy!). So that means looking for a place which means looking for a job. And doesn't putting down roots here send the message that I am not willing to move back (i.e. not work on the marriage?)?

I've been reading some of Mortarman's postings and it almost sounds as though Plan B is going to be necessary here. So I guess I wonder if I've done enough of a Plan A in the short time we've been together physically since d-day or if I should (or even can) put myself in more limbo and agony to try to do a (better) Plan A before heading to Plan B....

Advice and help would be much appreciated....

Hi, I know I haven't had a response to my previous posting, but I have more questions - sorry!

We got together tonight and I had planned to just relax and have a good time. He brought up relationship issues and as we are technically working towards recovery, I thought it would be okay to talk about things. We got to talking about motivation and why he did things - he had a bit of a "lightbulb" moment and said he realized he has always done things seeking my approval. Then I asked him what is motivating him to come back to this marriage now and he said it was also for my approval.

He admits that he only "wants to want to commit" at this point. He has been in contact with OW several times this week and admits to seeking her out. I was really calm and respectful but just asked whether his desire to be in contact with her didn't undermine any of our efforts to work on our marriage.

I just read the 180 list and realized I have been spending a lot of time in the past while trying to reason with him (even he admits that he's only in this for rational reasons). He said he is considering giving up again for the first time since he "made his decision" last week.

I don't want to undermine his efforts, but shouldn't we both be clear on his motivation? If he doesn't truly want to commit to this marriage, isn't all this negotiating of a reconciliation pointless? Won't his ambivalence poison our efforts? Is talking about our marital difficulties and how we can change them a positive thing at this point? Or does it just make his relationship with her (which to him is still perfection) that much more appealing?

One positive thing - he did say that I have totally changed and that I seem really strong and calm and as though I am saying "well, bud, I am who I am and if you choose to leave, it's your loss." That's good, right?

Thanks to anyone who is reading this....

I haven't read your posts in recovery - but can I comment on these posts?


Hi, I know I haven't had a response to my previous posting, but I have more questions - sorry!
It is natural to want to know things right now. I wish we had more answers for you. You really want to know what is going to happen and you want to understand what he is doing, and what he is thinking, but please don't take his word for things - because he really doesn't know.

Especially don't believe when he says it won't work, because that won't be known for quite some time yet.

We got together tonight and I had planned to just relax and have a good time. He brought up relationship issues and as we are technically working towards recovery, I thought it would be okay to talk about things. We got to talking about motivation and why he did things - he had a bit of a "lightbulb" moment and said he realized he has always done things seeking my approval. Then I asked him what is motivating him to come back to this marriage now and he said it was also for my approval.

You should only believe about 10% of what he says, for the above reasons. His mind is no more clear in the middle of an A, than an alcoholic's mind is when he has been drinking. Please don't try to reason with him when he is really bad, it will only make you frustrated. Learn to talk to him in fog talk like he talks to you.
H - " I just don't know what I am going to do."
You - " I just don't know what you will do either."

Don't say things that you don't agree with, and don't make promises you can't keep - such as saying you will "always be there for him." You may get sick of his antics and leave, and he ought to realize that.

He admits that he only "wants to want to commit" at this point. He has been in contact with OW several times this week and admits to seeking her out. I was really calm and respectful but just asked whether his desire to be in contact with her didn't undermine any of our efforts to work on our marriage.

Calm is good - and you are right that contact will undermine any effort at making your marriage work. It is good to repeat that often.

I just read the 180 list and realized I have been spending a lot of time in the past while trying to reason with him (even he admits that he's only in this for rational reasons). He said he is considering giving up again for the first time since he "made his decision" last week.

Reason doesn't work very well with an addict. This is what you are dealing with - an addiction. It is chemical as well as emotional - and the effects are much like being addicted to drugs.

Remember this, and it will help you cope with his actions, because you will have a better understanding of why he is doing it. Think of your plan as helping his kick his habit.

I don't want to undermine his efforts, but shouldn't we both be clear on his motivation? If he doesn't truly want to commit to this marriage, isn't all this negotiating of a reconciliation pointless? Won't his ambivalence poison our efforts?

He won't understand his motivation for wanting to be with OW any more than an addict can tell you why they are addicted to drugs. It makes no sense and if you ask for reasons, he will try to find some - and he will believe whatever he thinks up. It is well to leave this alone.

Plan A is still the best hope you have - then if there is no response - you go to plan B. They are called plans A, and B for a reason, and A always comes first followed by B if A does not produce results.

Is talking about our marital difficulties and how we can change them a positive thing at this point? Or does it just make his relationship with her (which to him is still perfection) that much more appealing?

Talking is good, but pressure is not. One of the reasons the WS enjoys the company of the OP, is the reaction they get -
When they go home they get:
" Why won't you talk to me, we need to work this out, what you are doing is not right, I can't stand this any more, this hurts me - and so on.

And -
when they spend time with the OP they get this:
" I am so glad you came to see me, I love spending time with you, you are so fun to be with, and so nice to me - and so on.

Who sounds more fun to be with?

One positive thing - he did say that I have totally changed and that I seem really strong and calm and as though I am saying "well, bud, I am who I am and if you choose to leave, it's your loss." That's good, right?

Right - that is really good. You are strong, confident, kind, caring - you meet his needs as best you can. You can put boundaries into effect - and there can be consequences for his actions. This is not about being a dormant, it is meeting needs as best you can, and trying to get the A to end by whatever means work the best.

Thanks to anyone who is reading this....

I wish we could help more - I am so sorry you have to be here.

This will take time, it will be hard, and we all know it should be him begging you to take him back - but that is often not how things go, and if you want this to work, you are doing the right things.

Read as much as you can about plans A, and B. Here are some links to more information
NSR's links to info about plan A and B

Remember as you run your plan that you won't really know what effect it i shaving on him all the time. He will continue to act badly, and say things that hurt, and mislead you. You just have to work the plan as best you can despite him. After you feel you have done a good plan A, and if he does not respond, you can go to plan B. You also want to make the switch if you are loosing your love and respect for him to quickly.

Your best chance to save your marriage will be in following a well thought out plan - I also recommend you call the Harleys for counseling because that will increase your chances of success.

I am not sure what your personal beliefs are, but if it is all right with you, I will pray for you.

God be with you.

SS

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS,

You are so right that I want results and answers ASAP. I just want out of this mess, and I know that my impulse is to act in ways that do that, even if that means pushing him towards her just so that he leaves already!

I am doing my best to figure out my best Plan A/B scenario. The logistical situation makes things really tough - we have four more days together physically and then he heads back across the country to school/daily contact with her (at least for the next three months).

I doubt the efficacy of my moving back there to do a Plan A - I know I'll just obsess and the tension will get to me (along with the kids and inadequate support networks etc.) and I'll LB all over the place. And if Plan B is inevitable, then I'd just have to move back here since there's no way he'd leave.

A big problem for me is that I am waiting for him to make a decision (either go to her or fully commit to me - right now he says he wants to commit, but without NC and with him seeking her out as "friends", there's only enough "progress" that I feel that we're setting ourselves up for failure if we pursue recovery but that putting the brakes on things until he truly commits sends a message that I'm unwilling to work...).

I also struggle with "moving on with my life." His on again-off again has made me want to remain available to go back as soon as he gives her up so that I can start meeting his ENs ASAP. But in the meantime I don't feel that I can look for a job, my own place, daycare for the kids, or pursue financial arrangements (which could very well involve a legal separation) since to do so would mean committing to physical separation for a long time. Yet I'm going crazy living in my parents' basement and it's not fair that they have to support me (financially) through this....

Ah, what to do, what to do? I'm sorry if my questions seem circular or this is long - I'm an English major and "talking things through" is what I do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks

Wow. This is a hard one. I think you need to stay in Plan A, even if it is long distance. Get a job, talk to a lawyer about support and move on with your life.

This does not mean that you are giving up on him, just getting your ducks in a row.

It sounds like you don't think you can make a plan A work if you are close to him and the A is rubbed in your face so to speak. I don't blame you for this, and reality is reality. You can only do what you can do.

If he finishes school and comes back the A will probably end at that point, but we don't know. I still recommend plan A for at least a month - it should confuse him and prevent them from getting as close as she would perhaps like. It shoulld help YOU stay between THEM.

Remember that you don't have to work on things if you choose not to. I don't have any idea of the percentages, but many people never come to this web site, and they just file and walk away. I commend you for trying, I hope it will enable you to one day say: "I did everyting I could to save my marriage." That's where you want to be.

I think you should continue to stress that is making the biggest mistake of his life by taking up with someone else while still married (but soft sell it, don't rub it in his face.) And also tell him you love him and want to work things out, but that you don't know how long you will feel that way if he continues with her.

What are your parents saying about all this? Do they support you in trying to save things?

Just how much can you stand? I see your comments about going crazy living with them, and about perhaps a legal sepration (probably so you can get support from him?) to continue your own life.
Emotionally, where are you? Can you hold on for three months until school is out ?

SS

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>