Okay, Okay. I finally got around to posting. It has been, I think, November ’03 since I last posted an update. I don’t even remember what the last post said. I guess I could go look it up, though.

Hope4Future is carrying the virtual 2x4, and has threatened to use it if I get “verbose.” So, I will try to catch you up with as few words as possible.

The month of December looked like the end for us. Things got worse and worse as the month went on. I was getting sick of just being roommates. No SF. No affection. Sure, most of the time, we got along pretty well. But it was sort of sterile. I had closer relationships with the gals at work (kidding!).

As you know, she came back home last April (those that don’t know, go back and read my threads since June 2002). There was some immediate SF and affection. But then it stopped (I will tell you why below).

Anyway, over Christmas it got real bad. I figured this marriage was over. I wanted peace. I wanted a relationship. And she wanted the same thing…but it just seemed that she wasn’t going to give that to me.

So, over the Christmas holiday, she told friends of ours (and me) that she was moving out, that right after the New Year, she was moving in with one of her girlfriends. That this wasn’t going to work.

But, a weird thing happened on New Years eve. She wanted to hangout with me, watch the ball drop with me and the kids. We had a pretty good night. Within a day or two, we were having some pretty good days. And then she dropped a bomb on me.

She said that she wanted us to go to counseling, a different counselor. She said that she couldn’t live like this. That we either find a way to get thru this…or end it. For the first time in all of this, since September 2001, she was taking the lead in repairing our relationship. She was actually doing something. I don’t know what caused this. Just the week before, I had never seen her more distant from me.

Well, the next few weeks of January, I did nothing. We had pretty good days, very little arguing. And I waited for her to call the counselor and get the appointment. I wasn’t going to do it, because I wanted her to start doing some of the work…to show that she isn’t going to just “show up” like before.

Well, she never called him. But she did ask two weeks ago for the number, and kept saying she was going to try to call. Her schedule was tremendously busy at work, so a week ago, I finally called for her and set up an appointment for last Friday.

Like I said, things were relatively good. We were living as mom and dad, we were making plans for the future, taking care of family business. Even going out on family events and just to get out. But since April, she has gone out many times with her girlfriends. Not ONCE with me.

Anyway, we went to the counselor last Friday and my wife loved him. I did too. Sometime later, I will tell you why things didn’t work out with Steve Harley (in short, it was good for me…but she never bothered to find out about the Harley principles…but instead heard things like “Plan A” and “Plan B” and felt like she was being manipulated. So she didn’t feel comfortable.) Sorry, Steve. Like I said...I know if she would have just listened, that things would be well on their way. This new counselor isnt saying much different than he did. But, my wife is quirky. So, we must go where she is comfortable.

Anyway, the session went pretty well. This guy asked a lot of telling questions. And my wife, for the first time, even seemed to try to defend me sometimes (a first). The counselor stated that there are three entities here (My wife, me, and the person of the marriage). He said he is like a lawyer, here to represent and defend the marriage. Which means sometimes, either of us might get our toes stepped on. This is good, because the last counselor took sides (my side) and my wife was put off for months.

We had to do some questionnaires on our own. Normally, my wife would not do them, forget about them. Not only did she get right on them, she also kept badgering me if I had done them. This and many other things (she still constantly talks about the session, or about issues he raised) make me believe that she is very comfortable with him.

My wife’s major problems are 1. the actions I did while she was in the affair (from having her followed, intel gathering, etc. She says she feels violated and it is the major reason why she doesn’t feel close (which corresponds with when the SF stopped last April…right after a talk we had which I admitted much that I had been doing while she was away). 2. She is still wary that things will go back to the way they were before the affair.

So, these are the issues we are dealing with. At least on her side.

On mine, I still have immense anger toward OM (he has been out of the picture since last March). There is this part of me that wants justice, that wants him to get his rewards for what he has done. I know, I know. You don’t have to lay into me about this. But, it is still a feeling I have…and I am having trouble getting rid of it.

Second, since there hasn’t been much SF or affection, the snapshots in my brain of them together have started coming back. And it is actually making me want that part of our life less. I am afraid that if that box (what I have suppressed) is opened, that even if she is ready and able to come back to a full relationship, that I actually may not be able to or want that part of it. Every time I think about it, or those images comes up, I only feel disgust for my wife. Words such has filthy, nasty, etc only begin to describe how I begin to feel about her in a sexual way.

I had thought that us building over the last year would slowly build new memories, and these would go by the wayside. But since we haven’t done so, these feelings actually have taken root. And now, while I have these feelings toward her (it is driving me crazy, actually), as soon as she rejects me or tells me she isn’t ready yet, my brain shifts to the images of them together. And it helps her because I back off immediately. But it continues to erode my feelings for her in this area. I already know that there are “things” we did together, that since I saw them do it together, that I know I just cant do with her again. The more this goes on like this, the more I am sure that I wont.

So, there it is in short. Everyone jump on in and I’ll add more, if you need more info.

In His arms.

<small>[ February 19, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman-

Wow, what a long struggle. From what I've read, it is harder for men to get over a betrayal by their wife, than the other way around.

If you were having SF with her, you could replace these memories. If you were going out with her, you could build new memories. So you are kind of stuck.

But one thing that may help is to realize that when women stray, it is not usually about sex, but about emotional needs. I think a lot of men skip over that and think that their wife wanted better sex. But that is a false belief.

Hi Mortarman,

Going from being a BS to becoming a WS, I would tend to agree with believer. It was absolutely not about the sex for me, it was about the understanding, the conversations and the mental connection I had with my "lover".

I think that for women, (and this is not just something I say from my own heart, but through all the long night discussions I have had with my girlfriends - all that are been married in relationships from 3 to 17 yrs), sex is the "outcome" of the mental connection - where the mental connection is more important, whereas for men the mental connection is the "outcome" of sex, whereas sex is more important.

Thats why you have trouble with the sex, because it means more to you, whereas if you had been the WS, your wife would not have so much trouble forgiving the sex, but trouble forgiving the mental connection, because it probably means more to her.

I´m not saying that this is how it is for everybody, I´m just telling you the conclusion me and a group of my women friends have come to - over and over and over again.

So based on that, i would say you were "competing" with the mental connection she had with the OM, not the sex. And until you can fulfil the mental connection she is yearning for and missing, she can´t open up sexually. She´s just a woman, like me. One of you has to "give in" to get back to a good cycle, where you will give her the mental connection without expecting sex, but you will get it because she will be happy and she will give you sex, without expecting the mental connection, but she will get it, because you will be happy.

But to get there, one of you has to begin, and so far, you prove to be the one that has the most insight and knowledge to guide your marriage the right way, even though she hurt you so bad you don´t know if you can ever forgive that pain. Let go and begin to "compete" with the emotional connection in your head instead of the sex.

I really wish and hope and pray that changing therapist is going to help both of you open up more to each other and learn to forgive. I feel your pain and I feel your struggle. Don´t give up. We´re here for you!

Queen

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

I thought that you would be bombarded with replies once you "finally" updated!!

It sure sounds as if you're W has reached a turning point in the recovery...doing and suggesting things she hasn't up until now.

You've gone this long without the SF and I know that it must be tough, but hang in there and see where these new developments lead.

The new counselor may be just what you both needed, fresh perspectives, mutual satisfaction with the counselor, etc.

You're probably so frustrated that you're tempted to push for results, I know that feeling.

Feeling that WH's return is just around the corner, I have been tempted and have actually done things that only confuse the situation. I need to back off, let the process happen...and not rush to action...

Same for you. Don't rush the process, even though you are probably thinking that it has been an eternity already!

It may be just as frustrating for your W. She may know what she wants, what should be happening by now and feels like a failure that recovery is not happening the way you had hoped or that she had hoped. She knows she has failed you once, it must be painful for her to know that she may be failing you now. That kind of stress and feeling of failure is certainly not helping to move things forward.

So hang in there...don't give up...you have worked so incredibly hard for your M and your family, it will pay off!
Good to hear from you, keep us posted!

IMO issues of sexual revulsion is related to a couple of things...one is viewing your spouse as your property, that they can somehow be "tainted" or defaced. This is not true of course, and past sexual behavior of any kind is irrelevant to future sexuality (except for std's of course)... The other issue is IMO sexual feelings are directly related to how the relationship is functioning, and yours isn't functioning to well, so not surprising there would be a sexual manifestation of that psychological reality.

IMO it makes no difference what someone did with someone else, each sexual encounter is unique, yet at the same time there is a only a small finite number of ways for humans to experience sex anyways...so what difference does it make who did what with who....none at all. Would you feel the same way if your wife had been raped and forced to have the same mechanical actions? For now, your feelings are normal, and represent probably your emotions more than anything...but if you persist in letting them control you, you are guilty of depersonalizing your wife, and turning her into an object, put here for you...you are smart enough to know that is your problem, not hers. I would suggest you do nothing (pro or con) sexually because of any knowledge you have re her behavior with the om, it is completely unimportant, and irrelevant.

Hey!!! I posted from work and it's not here! Dangit!

Anyway, for the record - I wasn't telling you not to be wordy - I was telling you that if you were avoiding giving us an update because you thought we had to have the entire story, just give us the highlights! I wanted to know what was going on!!! I'm selfish, I know!

Thanks Mortarman for updating us! I think it's great you found a third party who is Pro marriage AND you both like! That can make all the difference in the world! It sounds like your wife is still foggy - otherwise she would be focusing more on her own selfish behaviour and less on anything you did because of it!! Hopefully with time she'll come to be a bit clearer. Good luck!!

DearMortarman,

So good to hear from you. I have no real advice. It is good news that some action is being taken. All that I really can say is that recovery is a life long pursuit, as is marriage. You and your family are in my continuous prayers. And although I fully admire your service career, I am glad retirement is in your sites...20 years...WOW!


ayslyne

H4F...I know. I just like busting your chops!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

asylyne: Thanks. It has been a long haul, both with the military...and the last 2 1/2 years with my marriage. I'm ready for the good Lord to help me and my family start the next phase. My prayers are out for you and yours also.

sufdb: Thanks for the response. I understand what you are saying, but I think you might be mistaking my beliefs a little, and you might be right a little also.

First off, I am a Christian man. That means, I believe what the Word says. The Bible says that we are not our own, that we are bought with a price (Christ's death). Next it says for husbands and wives not to withhold from each other (and it isnt talking about withholding money!!). The Scriptures go on to say that my body does not belong to me, but to my wife. And my wife's body does not belong to her, but to me. Lastly, the Scriptures state that when a man and woman marry (any marriage, whether they are believers or not), they become One Flesh. There is no longer two, but one. So with this, my beliefs tell me that I belong to my wife and my wife belongs to me. I have NO RIGHT to give myself sexually to anyone but her. And she has no right to give herself sexually to anyone but me. So, the act of giving herself to someone else, when we are one flesh, is disgusting to me.

Do I view her exploits before we were married this way? No. She wasnt my wife, she wasnt one flesh with me, she didnt have a life long covenant with me, to forsake all others until death do us part. Not until DEBt do us part, or whatever other wordly thing comes in the way. Until death do us part.

When some living thing is one, and you tear it in half, you kill it. 11 years ago, there was no longer just Mortarman. I became one flesh with this woman. So you cn no longer talk of me as just me. I am me-and-my-wife.

Now that all being said, what my wife did with her body while she was a part of me is my business. She first of all made a covenant before God. Do you know what a covenant is? It is a legally binding contract, which is enforced through death to those that break the agreement. That is why God made adultery worthy of capital punishment, just like murder and others. This is serious business.

My wife didnt just sin against me. She didnt just break a promise to me. She did all of his and more to God. As my pastor said "Mortarman, she isnt rejecting you, she is rejecting Christ."

On the issue of certain sexual acts...well lets just say some require a little more trust, a little more intimacy. To see my wife giving that to another man, a man that not only didnt deserve it, but shouldnt have been anywhere near her...well, that raises deep emotions in me. And they arent good for being ble to accomplish some things in that area, if you know what I mean.

No, if my wife did things because she was raped, I wouldnt feel the same. Why? Because she didnt give away what was mine. She would have had it taken from her. And that is a whole different deal. During this whole thing, everyone told me not to be mad at the OM, that my wife was the issue because she allowed him to do this. Okay, fair enough. But in rape, my wife isnt to blame and the rapist wuld be. Thus my anger would be pointed at him, not my wife.

The Bible speaks of the adulteress as "defiled." What do you think that means? Here is what the dictionary says:

Defiled: </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To make filthy or dirty; pollute:</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To debase the pureness or excellence of; corrupt: a country landscape that was defiled by urban sprawl.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To profane or sully (a reputation, for example).</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To make unclean or unfit for ceremonial use; desecrate: defile a temple.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To violate the chastity of.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds to me like the Bible speaks exactly of what I speak about my feelings.

I could give you more, but suffice it to say that my viewing the actions of my wife with another man as dirty, disgusting...well, I am afraid that is natural.

Look, my child uses paints. Paints on a piece of paper or canvas by him can be beautiful. Paint thrown all over my walls and couches is not. Sex is awesome and great and beautiful when done in the right place. My wife and I are pretty open and there is not much we havent done together. That is beautiful. But take those same actions, and place them where they dont belong, then it makes something beautiful, into something disgusting.

Without getting graphic, there is a special thing my wife did for me, very loving and very sexual. But, I watched her to the same thing in the same manner with him. So, that specialness, the lovingness is no longer there for that act. Now, if she were to try that, I would probably not want it because it isnt special...she can do that with anyone in that way.

Maybe I am not getting my point across. I was with other women before I met my wife. And they would do this certai nact also. But for her and I, she had made it special...somethign she made a big thing out of nd made me feel special. To watch her do the same thing with someone else, say the same things, make the same effort...well, that just takes everythign she ever has done liek that and thrown it in the trash. Now, it all feels like a lie. Everything she did for me before in this act...and everything she might do in the future with this act.

Like I said, we may not get this one back. We may just have to have a great sex life without it. She will be very sad, because I know she enjoys it. I know that is why she did it with him. But it more to her and I. Or t least I thought it did. Now I question everything.

You are right. It is my emotions. But we cant side step that. Again, it may mean we never do that act again. For us, that is a GREAT loss! Something that I know that she not only will be disappointed in when she finds out I cant do that particular thing with her anymore...but I believe she will become angry over it.

Believe me, I wish this isnt the case. And maybe it will change. But I am 40, and I know myself pretty well in this area. I doubt that this will change. And she will be angry. And I will be extremely sad. But this loss is at her feet. I will try. But in the end, this may be one of the casualties of her actions.

I love my wife more than life itself. I wish for us to have that incredible sex life we had before. And maybe we can. But what I speak of is just this one act, which was made extremely special by my wife over the first 8 1/2 years of our marriage. And now, I really believe that I can never allow her to do that again.

I hope I have made sense without offending anyone.

In His arms.

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Hmmm, guess God isn't powerful enough to restore your sexual relationship huh? Is that because you know yourself better than God does? Sounds to me a bit prideful, stiff-necked, unforgiving, not very Christian, but what do I know, some think I am just a heathan in Christian clothing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I understand your emotional distress, and that it is strong....but I pretty much disagree with your interpretation and conclusions in that regard....I do not think oneflesh meeans you are revulsed by a spouses body under any circumstances.....and I see no difference between rape and adultery in this regard....further I disagree with your implication sexual propriety is only in issue in marriage, and not pre-maritally. IMO you are holding your pain as a means of control, and have not submitted at all to God's healing. Anything you do not take back (out of essentially pride), remains the om property, think about that mortarman....think about it hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong> we may not get this one back. We may just have to have a great sex life without it. She will be very sad, because I know she enjoys it. I know that is why she did it with him. I know that she not only will be disappointed in when she finds out I cant do that particular thing with her anymore...but I believe she will become angry over it.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHOA!!!! Talk about having "expectations."

MM, I thought you were SMARTER than this??? You KNOW satan only comes to kill, steal and destroy. If you don't get control of your thought process about this, he will succeed in destroying your M.

I have to agree with sufdb on this one.......

OUR GOD HAS TO BE "BIGGER" THAN THIS. HE HAS TO BE ABLE TO HEAL YOUR HURTS, YOUR EMOTIONS, YOUR SEX LIFE WITH YOUR WIFE.

He's all about restoration, after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mortarman, you are restraining your recovery process.

I suggest you read everything you can get your hands on about resentment and forgiveness.

Just like you would forgive your kids for throwing paint all over the couch and furniture and making a disgusting mess - you should forgive your wife for making a mistake, for being weak and being human.

No, she is not a child and yes, she should have thought about what she was doing before she did it. But life does not always work that way, and we do not learn and grow before we go through the pains of learning and growing.

Mortarman, your words come through very hostile and IMHO you are holding on to something that comes through as a life sentence for your wife. If thats how you feel, then why go on, because i don´t think either of you will be happy.

You have got a problem that you are trying very hard to justify keeping. Its up to you to let go and forgive, its your mind that has the power of doing so, not your wives.

If you don´t believe that your "special thing" was not special for you and your wife, what can she prove and do to help you bring it back? Is there anything, or have you already decided (as it comes through in your post) it can´t be done? I don´t even know your wife, but I believe that what she has said was special for you and her, WAS SPECIAL. Why can´t you?

Have you ever thought about the fact that the reason she was doing whatever she did with the OM, was because she was in love, and she had learnt from you that this was a thing that made you very happy. She did not want to be a failure in the OM eyes because she was in love, so she did things with him and to him, that she knew were a success, based on YOU AND HER - not based on him and her because they have no past? She passed on your likings and your enjoyments to him, so she would have less chance of failing. When we want to impress people isn´t it only natural that we use the tools we know that have proved to have worked?

Are you going to hold that against her the rest of your life? Wouldn´t you and don´t you do the same?

I pray that you soften up...Here´s a story for you to think about...beecause it reminds me of you!!!!!

The Magic Eyes

In the village of Faken in innermost Friesland there lived a long thin baker named Fouke, a righteous man, with a long thin chin and a long thin nose. Fouke was so upright that he seemed to spray righteousness from his thin lips over everyone who came near him; so the people of Faken preferred to stay away.

Fouke's wife, Hilda, was short and round, her arms were round, her bosom was round, her rump was round. Hilda did not keep people at bay with righteousness; her soft roundness seemed to invite them instead to come close to her in order to share the warm cheer of her open heart.

Hilda respected her righteous husband, and loved him too, as much as he allowed her; but her heart ached for something more from him than his worthy righteousness.

And there, in the bed or her need, lay the seed of sadness.

One morning, having worked since dawn to knead his dough for the ovens, Fouke came home and found a stranger in his bedroom lying on Hilda's round bosom.

Hilda's adultery soon became the talk of the tavern and the scandal of the Faken congregation. Everyone assumed that Fouke would cast Hilda out of his house, so righteous was he. But he surprised everyone by keeping Hilda as his wife, saying he forgave her as the Good Book said he should.

In his heart of hearts, however, Fouke could not forgive Hilda for bringing shame to his name. Whenever he thought about her, his feelings toward her were angry and hard; He despised her as if she were a common whore. When it came right down to it, he hated her for betraying him after he had been so good and so faithful a husband to her.

He only pretended to forgive Hilda so that he could punish her with his righteous mercy.

But Fouke's fakery did not sit well in heaven.

So each time that Fouke would feel his secret hate toward Hilda, an angel came to him and dropped a small pebble, hardly the size of a shirt button, into Fouke's heart. Each time a pebble dropped, Fouke would feel a stab of pain like the pain he felt the moment he came on Hilda feeding her hungry heart from a stranger's larder.

Thus he hated her the more; his hate brought him pain and his pain made him hate.

The pebbles multiplied. And Fouke's heart grew very heavy with the weight of them, so heavy that the top half of his body bent forward so far that he had to strain his neck upward in order to see straight ahead. Weary with hurt, Fouke began to wish he were dead.

The angel who dropped the pebbles into his heart came to Fouke one night and told him how he could be healed of his hurt.

There was one remedy, he said, only one, for the hurt of a wounded heart. Fouke would need the miracle of the magic eyes. He would need eyes that could look back to the beginning of his hurt and see his Hilda, not as a wife who betrayed him, but as a weak woman who needed him. Only a new way of looking at things through the magic eyes could heal the hurt flowing from the wounds of yesterday.

Fouke protested. "Nothing can change the past," he said. "Hilda is guilty, a fact that not even an angel can change."

"Yes, poor hurting man, you are right," the angel said. "You cannot change the past, you can only heal the hurt that comes to you from the past. And you can heal it only with the vision of magic eyes."

"And how can I get your magic eyes?" pouted Fouke.

"Only ask, desiring as you ask, and they will be given you. And each time you see Hilda through your new eyes, one pebble will be lifted from your aching heart."

Fouke could not ask at once, for he had grown to love his hatred. But the pain of his heart finally drove him to want and to ask for the magic eyes that the angel had promised. So he asked. And the angel gave.

Soon Hilda began to change in front of Fouke's eyes, wonderfully and mysteriously. He began to see her as a needy woman who loved him instead of a wicked woman who betrayed him.

The angel kept his promise; he lifted the pebbles from Fouke's heart, one by one, though it took a long time to take them all away. Fouke gradually felt his heart grow lighter; he began to walk straight again, and somehow his nose and his chin seemed less thin and sharp than before. He invited Hilda to come into his heart again, and she came, and together they began again a journey into their second season of humble joy.

With care
QUEEN

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

All,

Well, the last three posts have made me think. Actually, I took the weekend to think about sufdb's comments.

I know most of what you say is true. God is a God of healing, forgiveness, and love. He is the God of the second chance, the third chance, the 80th chance. I know this. This is why in my post, I didnt say that my feelings on this matter were for good. Just that without His help, without Him changing my heart, then it would be impossible.

I know He can heal this. But the question is...will He? Remember, God does not heal all the wounds of sin...not in this lifetime. If we drink and drive, and we kill someone...we can seek forgiveness all day long and it wont bring that person back. Could God bring that person back alive? Sure. But will He? Probably not.

If we sin against him and do something stupid, we end up hurt...and end up hurting others. Many times, that hurt causes deep wounds. And while the wounds may heal, there is always deep scarring. Even Jesus Himself still bears thet scars of His wounds on the Cross.

You drink and drive again, and this time, you wreck and break your back...paralysis. Wil lGod mend you whole? Maybe...and maybe not. Maybe you will be stuck the rest of your life in that bed.

You commit adultery, catch a deadly disease, and then take it home to your spouse...you think God will mend that? Maybe...and maybe not.

In all of this, there is forgiveness. In all of this, there is love. But, not all wounds are healed in this lifetime.

I love my wife. I think what I have done and endured over the last two and a half years has proven that. I have forgiven her. But I know I have not fully forgiven her. I believe that will be a lifelong process. A process I am willing to go through.

I know that my thoughts on this matter are not of God. I know that this is an attack by satan, meant to keep us from truly healing. I do know this. But I also know that it will take only God to heal this. I do not have that power...all of you are right about what I am holding onto.

Actually, I am not holding onto this as much as I am reacting to it. This "act" was very central to our sex life, and my wife had gone on and on throughout our marriage on how much she enjoyed it, and how perfect it was. How she had never been this loving with anyone before. It was truly special. Added to that, because of her feelings on the matter, I began to give this great importance...well beyond the act itself. You were right...I am sure that she did this because she was in love, and that she had learned that love in our relationship.

But, the flip side is also true. My mind races to all of the times whe did this, to the things she said. And I really do look to those times and those words as lies. Why? Because she said and did the same things to the OM.

If someone says to you I love you and you were the best...and then you hear them say that to another person, do those words really mean anything? Our are they just hollow words and actions, for whomever happens to be there at the moment?

So, when I think of doing this, my mind sees her doing it with him, with her telling him those same words.

I know it will take God to rid me of this, and I pray everyday that he does. I am not sure what else I really can do. Maybe it will take my wife, and actions by her, before this begins to seep away. I dont know.

But right now, in this place, I know that if we were to start SF back up (and I think we will soon...we have been having a very good time together as of late..as well as her excitement over the new counselor), that this act just wont be part of it. Even the thought of it is like a cold shower to me.

I pray that this will not always be the case. And maybe it wont. Maybe this all just takes time. Maybe.

But then again, I do know that He might not chose to let that be healed fully. That this scar remains, for some greater purpose. I willing to accept that, actually. But I know, if she knew my concerns here, that she would not accept it. It would hurt her, she would be upset...and I know she would be angry.

But I cant force it. It is not the will here. It is my ability. Or lack thereof.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

In His arms.

MM AND FOLKS,

I think everyone is getting the cart before the horse. First, I think it is perfectly normal that MM believe that certain things will NOT mean what they used to. Why? Because his marriage has NOT be rebuilt or restored. It is very simple. Very little that was meaningful will have much meaning UNTIL his W really and truely gets on board with the recovery and she has NOT.

They are in many ways no closer right now than they were in the middle of her affair.

So I believe MM's thoughts are very normal and his belief that things will NEVER be the same very reasonble given the current situation.

To date, the marriage has NOT be restored, and therefore neither has MM's belief that things will be special with his W again. That is after all the mark of restoration; special feelings for special people. To date the marriage only exists because MM felt it his DUTY to try and keep it together. It has NOT been kept together because his W is special in any way to him. She is not. She is simply his W in name only, and because he has not divorced her.

Hopefully, with good counseling and his W reversing the cranial transplant she had <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , she will become special to him agian, and then those "special" acts will have meaning to him.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks. Of course, you said it better than I could have, in a lot fewer words.

I have noticed her excitement towards this new counselor. She actually said those exact words yesterday. She has also chosen lately to spend time with me, rather than her friends. And most days, we hang out and laugh together. So in many ways, things are better.

But you are right. She is my wife in name only right now. She came back last April, with both of us seemingly having high hopes. She had tried her wedding ring back on but "wasnt quite ready yet." She was having SF with me. But since mid-April, there has been nothing.

So, I think you put it well. Maybe if she was repentent, maybe if she gets in and starts acting like a wife...maybe then I will be able to start getting past it.

But, she has said some interesting things lately. with the counselor, he asked if she loved me or what she wanted from the relationship. In past encounters with Steve Harley and other counselors, she just said that she didnt love me and that she just wanted things well for the kids. But this time, there was a very big change in her answer. She said "I dont know...I am so raw." I believe this statement, and the counselor's answer "That is very good Mrs. Mortarman...very honest. That is probably the best description you could give" led her to really liking this counselor. My wife went on to say that she isnt sure what it is that is causing her to keep the barriers up...but that she didnt want them there anymore. That she wanted to find out what was possible, or for us to end this.

Then this weekend, we had a little tiff (over sex of course). It wasnt big, but she did say an interesting thing (I think I posted this earlier). She actually started fighting FOR the marriage!! She said she was very unhappy that I twice "threatened" divorce when we were with the counselor. I didnt really say divorce, I just said that if we couldnt have a real marriage with all that comes with that, then I want to know now and want to end this. Anyway, she said that if that is how I feel, and I want to end it...then I should go see my lawyer...and end it. But she said "I am not leaving. I want to see this counselor. I think that he can really help us. You need to back off and give him a chance to work." And she said all of this not angrily...but opptomistically!

So, some perceptible changes.

But JL...you are right. Nothing has really changed for me yet, except around the edges.

In His arms.

MM,

You know...I hate it when I am right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Especially, in your particular situation. I keep hoping that some day she will quit blaming you and accept what she has done, and then maybe the healing can begin.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I know. Hopefully, since she is excited about this new counselor, maybe she will listen this time. We'll see.

Just last night, I got mad because she called me from work and asked if it was okay to go with some girlfriends and their church group to see "Passion" on Thursday. I didnt tell her I was mad, but I know she could tell. I told her that I had wanted to go see it with her. But, she reminded me that her faith fell apart back when this all happened. And that brings up what she has said often, which is that her loss of faith was due to me and my not being there for her and being the husband I should have.

Well, I said nothing. Just told her to do what she wanted to. But her crisis in faith, and her subsequent actions are not my fault, and I really had nothing to do with them. Look, she cheated on me. Did I turn my back on God? No. So, I dont want to hear that I have any responsibility in any of that.

You're right JL. Until she stops pointing the finger at me, and addressing the REAL issues that caused her to do what she did, then I just continue to sit here and spin my wheels. Like I said above. most days are real good, and I think our friendship has come a long way back. She is actually prefering to hang out with me and talk, unlike several months ago. So, the recovery process moves on. But only around the edges. Until she deals with her, we arent going to get to the meat of this.

In His arms.

MM...

I have to say I am shocked at your last post...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just last night, I got mad because she called me from work and asked if it was okay to go with some girlfriends and their church group to see "Passion" on Thursday. I didnt tell her I was mad, but I know she could tell. I told her that I had wanted to go see it with her. But, she reminded me that her faith fell apart back when this all happened. And that brings up what she has said often, which is that her loss of faith was due to me and my not being there for her and being the husband I should have.

Well, I said nothing. Just told her to do what she wanted to.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can just tell me why this conversation didn't go something more like this?

wife says...if it was okay to go with some girlfriends and their church group to see "Passion" on Thursday.

MOrtarman says...

Well dear I was really looking to forward to going to that movie with you...That I was hoping it was something we could do together...perhaps dinner and the movie...???

why the silence
why the cold treatment...
on your part

mm, tell me why you were mad...but didn't tell her..but let her know through tone and response...
Am I beating you up too much if i ask you to look at your own interactions as outlined above...

have you had enough
have you given up...
because I am confused by your response...
how are you building good communication if her asking to go to that movie with friends....leads you to feel bad and or mad...and you don't tell her..???
but you let her know...

she said...
which is that her loss of faith was due to me and my not being there for her and being the husband I should have.

and you said nothing????

what about well I am sorry about that ..but that was then and this is now...and I still want to go that movie with you...

why are you letting that fog babble hang in the air there...sometimes our lack of response gives the illusion of truth to a statement...and that statement of hers if pure fog babble...

ark

Ark,

Thanks for the post. First off, I did say that first part to her. I told her that I wanted to go with her, that we could have a night out this weekend. she reiterated what she said this last Sunday, when I asked her if she was going to church with me and the kids. She said something to the point of that I knew that she wouldnt be going to the same church with me anymore. and her response last night was that we couldnt go see this together due to her loss of faith, which was my fault.

That is when I got quiet. she said that if it was a problem, she just wouldnt go. My problem is not her going to movie with girlfriends. My problem is her still pointing the finger at me, still not seeing the truth about what she has done with me...and with God.

I am a little ill today, so I styed home from work. My wife got home from work early last night, but I had gone to bed at the same time as the kids. So this morning she commented on me going to bed so early. With me being sick, and the anger and disappointment I have in her, I just said tht I was sick nd left it at that.

About an hour later, she was leaving to go to work. normally, I would be up hugging her, giving her a kiss and even walking her out to the car. she kind of stood there by the couch like she hlf expected it. But when she said "well, I guess I'll see you later," I just looked at her and waved and said have a good day.

She'll probably rack all of this up to the fact that I am sick. But I am not that sick. I just really am disappointed in her, and continue to be over all of this. I am waiting for her to assume responsibility and do the hard part of recovery. So far...nothing.

I guess I can do better on the fog babble, and I will probably get that chance tonight. I think, like I said above, she will just shove all of this off as me being sick.

JL is right. My feelings betray me, because she hs yet to do the things and realize the things she needs to for recovery. She still has not looked at herself.

Anyway, thanks for the response. I know I could have probably handled it better, butmy being sick and the fact that I really had wanted us to go together to this, left me "raw" as she puts it.

In His arms.

MM,

I am going to bounce on you a bit. I think that Ark's comments have a lot of merit.

I don't know much, but I do know SOMETHINGS, and one of the things I know is that your W is NOT a mindreader and neither is your counselor. Further, I know you are very very tired and hurt by all of this. Her accusing you of being at fault because SHE lost her faith is really about all you can handle isn't it? When in fact, it is only through YOUR faith that this marriage and family exists.

It is NOT fair, but you know life is NOT fair.

My strong recommendation to you is for you to sit down and write down what you feel, where you hurt, what you want from your W. Make a long long list, then start to look at it, and see how often several topics or thoughts or needs can be combined into one topic. Keep boiling it down, all of the instances, all of the things she has said, done to you, all of the disrespect, etc. Keep boiling.

Once you have it down to as far as it can go, send it to your new counselor, also show it to your W, and tell her you would like to discuss some of these things at the next counseling session. Leave it until then.

MM, I am betting that of all the things you need, of all the wounds that need attention, it will boil down to a few things: you need her love and you need her respect. And the only question is what are you willing to give her? I think I know that answer as well.

I am thinking along these lines because your W is still defending herself. She is still running afraid you are going to extract some horrible revenge as she would against you. Yet, if I am right all you want from her is what you are willing to give to her.

She needs to hear that. She probably needs to hear it from the counselor, AND from you. She cannot read your mind, so she must hear from you. She heard from you in the last few days via your silence, but what she heard was great pain, great disappointment, and IN HER MIND, attacks on her. I'll grant you she is NOT acting like a person who cares much, but she cannot do two things at once. She cannot care AND defend, and she has chosen in her ignorance to defend.

If she cannot stop that, then I am afraid the marriage will be over, and HER life ruined. You see right now YOU are the personification of all of her failures and she needs to see you differently, hence my suggestion.

I don't know if I am on the right track, but think about it, call the counselor and talk with him/her.

I hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

Everyone's said good things. I'm going to take a different tack.

Mortarman, you are the threat to your marriage now.

The more you point your finger at your wife, the more true that becomes. Turn that finger around and point it at you. If it makes you mad, then it's probably the right thing to do.

I'm NOT talking about the affair. I'm talking about every minute of every day outside of the affair. And there've been WAY more of those than there were times that had to do with the affair.