I'm confused with what I read about doing plan A if H is alcoholic. In my previous posts I explained I believed my H was having at the least an EA with his dead friends wife.

I spoke of my boundaries after I plan A'd for several months. I was told my boundaries sounded like selfish demands and LB's.
I felt my boundaries were what I needed to protect myself and my children from his alcohol induced emotional and verbal abuse.

I just read in another post that Plan A with an alcoholic is a waste of time, that you should go right to plan B? H will not read any books, will not go to MC, will not do EN's questionair and will not admit that there is a problem. H will not go to AA.
What on earth is my next step? I am at a standstill. H says the only problems we have are mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Danneill

I am in a similar situation dealing with a WH who is also an alcoholic. I'm stuck with do I Plan A or Plan B or plan what? Still working on it. I'm sort of in Plan A-and-a-half, though I know that doesn't exist which means I'm probably not in any plan. My H is living in his own apartment now and I've backed off calling him, or chasing or trying to protect him from hurting himself.

I don't have answers, but there are a lot of people on here who do really help keep me going (even if they don't think they do....)

Just wanted you to know that someone else out there has a feeling of what you're experiencing.

Dr Harley says you have to fix addictions first in order to fix the marriage so I am not sure whether he would say Plan A or Plan B.

Is your husband aware he is an alcoholic and willing to work on recovering from alcoholism?

Lordslady, yes I read your posts and was stunned at what he said to you. Had he been drinking when he said that?

The OW in my case (wife of H's deceased friend) has now moved out of state. She still calls. We lease some property of her H's so we still have contact.

One day I needed her SSS # for business tax reasons. I asked him to call her in my presence to obtain the number. He said to me " Oh it's ok for me to talk to her for business but not pleasure, huh?"
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Danneill

I am certainly not an expert in addictions such as alchoholism. But I do know that addiction is a primary disease. That is it exists on its own with no help from any other disease or problem a person may have. For example, a BS will not become an alchoholic because of the affair.

Until the addiction is under control I doubt if the person having an affair will be motivated by Plan A, Plan B or anything else to end the affair. If your partner has an addiction first get him or her into treatment if they will go. In any event get yourself to an Alanon meeting where you will find great help and support for yourself.

Hi Stunned Dad, no my H will not admit that he is an alcoholic. He once agreed to go to AA meeting to pacify me and smooth things over after one of his drunken rampages. The next morning I started packing his suitcase and he made me lots of promises. "It won't happen again I promise, I'll even go to a "drunk meeting" and a MC, blah blah blah.
(for the hundreth time)In other words, HE LIES, over & over again.

H does not believe he is a alcoholic because he does not get drunk every day and because he works every day. We are farmers, we both work every day. But he does drink beer almost every day. He usually only gets plastered once a week that I know about. He lies about his drinking all the time. He will come in slurring his words and deny having anything to drink. He repeatedly stands me up when we make plans. He is very disrespectful.

I don't know what to do with him. You cannot fix a M by yourself. Being farmers, divorce will destroy everthing we have worked for. And, I still love him. What a fool am I.

Danneill

I have read numerous books on AA and Al Anon. There are no local meetings around here, but I did see another post today claiming there is an Al Anon meeting website.

The person making the post said to e-mail her for the site info. I plan on doing that tonight.

I met with a divorce attorney today for financial advice. I'm not saying a want a D, I do not. I want the wonderful man that I married back. Unfortunatly, I believe he is long gone.

Danneill

Wow, we used to have a post of the stupid things our WS said in the midst of their fog. 'Not talk for pleasure...'? That sure was a stupid thing. It still amazes me what can spew out of their mouths...

There is no way for you to convince a person they have a problem if they are not willing or rewady to admit it. You can talk with him about how his drinking causes problems in the M and in his life.

Point out some danger signs...

Ever been arrested for drinking related offense (PI, DUI/DWI, etc.)

Lost friends because of things said or done while drinking.

Been ashamed days later about behavior while drinking.

Effects job performance (late for work, missed days, etc.)

Personality change while drinking which causes fights with family members.

Another person has a problem with the amount you drink.


It is a problem for you. So what are you going to do? What rules are you willing to live with?

Hi Danniell, tough situation. You sound like you are working hard to save the M without much help from your spouse. Get thee to Alanon. The women there will tell you how they coped and some will have stories of recovery and saved marriages and some will not. (Just like here.) There are also books, like Alcoholics Anonymous (the Chapter To The Wives is a little old fashioned, from back in the pre-feminist days, but the patterns it describes are right on) and Alanon's 12 steps. It has to get bad enough for him to be willing to admit he has a problem, and it would be better if someone else (a recovering alcoholic MALE) could step in and reach him with some words of hope when he really really really feels bad. He won't listen to much that you have to say, and anything you do to take his bottle away from him will simply enrage him. (He thinks that it is what makes it possible for him to cope, even though that is a lie.) He has to be ready. There are things that you can do, but they must be things to protect yourself & your M from his irrational choices when he is drinking. Work on yourself and do not stand between him and a drink or he will push you right out of the way.

I was in love with an active alcoholic as well as being one, and the good news is that eventually we both got sober in AA. I still use Alanon to improve my own quality of life.

Good luck. In my opinion, you can use Alanon and these principles very compatibly, its just that the alcohol is REALLY primary in his life, it lies to him every day, and until he is sick of how it makes him feel, or there is an undeniable disaster, he won't be motivated to give it up.

Be courageous, do not give up hope, you will get help. (BTW, there are other ways that alcoholics get sober besides AA, it is just that AA has worked for literally millions of people.)

hoping2grow

Danneill -

Not sure if this will help, but will just post some of my thoughts.

My H issued NC to OW on d-day but he continued to lie and drink. He tried "controlled drinking" after the A. That didn't work.

I didn't find MB until about two months past d-day, but I would say I was in Plan A up to that point. Although the A ended, H still continued to lie and drink. So plan A did nothing really to change the alcoholic behavior, only helped to keep NC I think.

At three months past d-day, I told H that I could not handle the lying any longer. We were getting nowhere in MC because of his continued lying. He wouldn't work with our MC or open up. He felt she was sided with me.

So, I asked H to move out to allow me a chance to think about whether or not I wanted to stay in this M and what it would take for me to get back into MC. I guess I was in a modified Plan B because we did keep in touch with each other about finances, went on a couple of dates, etc.

After about four weeks, I told H that for me to get back into MC that he would need to:

*See IC to learn about his addictive behavior (A's, gambling, drinking, etc.)
*Read MB books and others I had bought.
*Be honest and open about past and in the present and future.

I did not specifically say anything about AA because I felt he had to figure that out on his own. Found three counselors for him to choose from (all addictions specialists) and let him make the decision.

He agreed, although it was rough going. He started seeing IC but then getting smashed after his sessions because they were so painful. After about his 3rd or 4th session, IC recommended he go to AA. H did not want to go. Did not believe he had a drinking problem or was an alcoholic. But, after hearing the stories of other alcoholics at that very first meeting, H knew.

H moved back home after about a six-week separation.

Alcoholics drink to hide or dull the pain they feel. They usually suffer from low self-esteem from some painful event in their lives. My H has childhood, mother/son relationship problems that he is now working through. As he works through those issues and attends AA, his feelings of needing to drink (or have A's, gamble, etc. - anything thing that gave him a "thrill" or "rush" or "instant high") are fading.

It was very hard to ask my H to move out. But my IC said that I had to set firm boundries. H had to take responsibility for his actions, be accountable, suffer somewhat from his choices... hit bottom...before he saw that it was necessary to change.

Everyone has their own "bottom" so timelines, etc. may be different from someone else's. It's like you have to move forward on gut instinct, as there is no script.

Go to Al-Anon. It helps and works. I found it encouraging after hearing from several women at the meetings I attend that they actually started going to Al-Anon long before their H's started in AA.

Al-Anon helps you detach, stop enabling, change your own behavior...which in turn changes the dynamics of the relationship you have with the alcoholic. The alcoholic may then realize, like many have, that their behavior is not working any more...they lost control...they lost their enabler...they are accountable.

I'm happy to say that my H is getting the help he needs and is changing more and more each day. I'm getting to know the real H and finding out that he is a very sweet, caring, loving person. Much different from the scared little boy, that acted so tough, so "in charge", entitled to feel good whenever and however he could, that I married.

I hope some of this information helps you.

Take care and good luck.

sss

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:


I just read in another post that Plan A with an alcoholic is a waste of time, that you should go right to plan B? ]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of sobriety, I shudder when I see people using Plan A on an alcoholic because I know exactly how it will be viewed by its target. He will be delighted because it is a new opportunity to exploit and get away with murder. It is a license to continue to DESTROY because it only ENABLES the alcoholic.

I can just picture that alcoholic in future years at AA meetings shaking his head about how his deluded wife handed him a new license [license = Plan A] for murder with some silly new "plan." The other members will chuckle about how blind normal people are to our schemes.

You will get alot of good advice from well meaning people on this website, however some don't understand that a practicing alcoholic reacts entirely different to Plan A than does a non-addict. Plan A is a waste of time with an alcoholic. Plan A is designed to meet the WS's needs, but it is impossible to meet the needs of a practicing alcoholic. They do not react in the same way and only use Plan A overtures as an opportunity to exploit and use the BS. Plan A only contributes to the devastation by enabling the alcoholic.

Here is a pretty good article from Harley about dealing with alcoholism:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

Danneill,

Most alcoholics won't go to AA until they are forced to go and very SCARED of losing something. [a job, home, spouse, freedom] Most who show up are in deep denial, they "are different." Often that quickly changes once they get there. As long as they are allowed to get away with murder, they will continue to commit murder. Subtle hints or talking to them about the dangers of drinking doesn't work.

I had my last drink on April 27, 1985 and what woke me up was being confronted by my H after a very embarrassing, humiliating drunk where I actually brought a man home from a bar, if you can imagine! I was so ashamed that I wanted to crawl into a hole and die.

My H confronted me the next morning and just told me I had a choice: either go to AA and never drink again or get on the bus and go home to mother's in TExas. [and never see my children again!] I was so humiliated and disgusted at myself that I went to AA.

I didn't believe I was an alcoholic when I first got there but when I saw and heard the stories of the other people, I knew I was. I have been going ever since. It is often very effective to confront an alcoholic when they are ashamed and hung over from a bad drunk.

If my H had not forced me to go to AA, I would have probably drank for several more years or been killed while drunk driving or jailed. My life was such a wreck then that I can't even fathom how much worse it could have got. To this day, I am utterly, overwhelmingly GRATEFUL to the bottom of my soul to my ex-H for having the courage and LOVE to force me to address my drinking. THAT is true love and I am eternally grateful that he put my best interest before his fears.

I would strongly suggest finding a good Al-Anon meeting even if you have to drive to get to it. I am not necessarily suggesting divorce or even Plan B [I don't know your situation] but there is so much you can be doing to help him hit his bottom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
<strong> Hi Stunned Dad, no my H will not admit that he is an alcoholic. He once agreed to go to AA meeting to pacify me and smooth things over after one of his drunken rampages. The next morning I started packing his suitcase and he made me lots of promises. "It won't happen again I promise, I'll even go to a "drunk meeting" and a MC, blah blah blah.
(for the hundreth time)In other words, HE LIES, over & over again.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rule #1: tell them ANYTHING they want to hear to get them off your [censored].

Then once the heat dies down go back to what we were doing.

Yes, we alcoholics sure know how to work you normals, don't we!?

Wow, I just re-read Dr. Harleys "What to do with an alcoholic spouse". It really hits home. I know I read this segment last year but I think I was so obsessed with finding the truth about my suspicions of his A that I was closing my eyes to the alcohol problem. I am so used to it being there and he is so good at putting the wool over my eyes...

I did wonder though wether my competition was another woman or the beer can. When his cell records said he was in her area for hours and hours, it could very well have been that he left and was sitting in the bar for some of that time.

H has never been picked up for drunk driving although he does drive drunk. These country boys get away with alot.

Last spring I wrote H a letter explaining how I felt about his drinking and how it is so very much the biggest part of our marital problems. I really tried not to attack his character. H took everything I said as a personal attack. Now I understand how he would being he is an alcoholic.

That letter caused many more problems. First he ignored me and would not speak about it. Then he hid it and told me he was making copies and going to publish it in the local paper. He told suspected OW about it, his mother, his friends ect...
He wanted everyone to know how "poorly" I thought of him. He would not give it back to me.
I did finally find it and put it somewhere safe. He was outraged! He demanded it back in the most horrid voice and temper tantrum that I had ever witnessed. He denied having a drink but was very drunk.

That was the night my D and I hid in the bathroom.
He had hidden the letter in his toolbox. He told me that if I ever get into anything personal of his again that it will be the last thing I do in my life. Since when is a toolbox personal?
I guess I have told this story before.

There is an al anon meeting in our hometown, but I don't dare go there. We are very well known here. If I showed my face there and it gets back to him I'd have hell to pay.

How do I add a previous thread to a post?
Danneill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
<strong>


That letter caused many more problems. First he ignored me and would not speak about it. Then he hid it and told me he was making copies and going to publish it in the local paper. He told suspected OW about it, his mother, his friends ect...
He wanted everyone to know how "poorly" I thought of him. He would not give it back to me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you are somehow the guilty party for pointing out his destructive traits and he is going to PUNISH you for daring to day the truth! AMAZING! Alcoholics are absolute geninuses in manipulating people into silence. Bet that taught you to never criticize him, didn't it?

The funny thing is that you SHOULD think poorly of him because his behavior *is* poor. What a bullshi** artist! lol!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> AMAZING! Alcoholics are absolute geninuses in manipulating people into silence. Bet that taught you to never criticize him, didn't it?

The funny thing is that you SHOULD think poorly of him because his behavior *is* poor. What a bullshi** artist! lol!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H is the king of bullshi*. Valentines day he stood me up again. Was out drinking with his buds. Came home about 1 am drunk. I was pissed. Waited for him for hours for nothing. Next day I told him he is a jerk ect...
He later told his buddy that he got drunk with, that I was *****ing, too radicle, get upset over nothing..blah blah...
Next thing you know I'm the one at fault. Big deal its only valentines day and he did buy me a flower before he left. I have no reason to be angry.

Like my suspicions of A. I am the crazy one. I have gone beserk. I am out of my F****ing mind.
He told his mother, fiends, everyone how crazy I am. How dare I accuse him. He never touched that woman!

I am not allowed to bring that subject up. (His A). I am not allowed to talk about his alcoholism. H thinks everything is just peachy as long as I keep quiet and tolerate his fun. After all, I have a roof over my head and food on the table. I have my horses "(my useless expensive money wasting hobby)". He does not beat me. I don't have to work off the farm. blah blah....True I don't have to work off the farm, but I spend 10 hours a day in the office doing the books for us and his parents farm. Thank GOD I have my horses. They are the only thing that has kept me sane.

Now he has taken my dream away. He ripped out my pastures and planted corn. He forced me to sell my breeding stock. He does not want my "horsey" friends around. DOesn't like them. I had a dream that I worked 20 hard years for. Has has adamantly stated to forget it. He will not contribute a penny to make my dream reality. But I am to live his dream instead. Mega farmer, big man, large land owner, ect...Just be my playboy bunny he says...

He is the most selfish hedonistic man I know.

A few months ago OW told me "we need to talk". Maybe I should just ask her if she was sleeping with my H? She would probably lie too.
Danneill

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
<strong>
There is an al anon meeting in our hometown, but I don't dare go there. We are very well known here. If I showed my face there and it gets back to him I'd have hell to pay.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Confidentiality is a big part of Alanon. To violate that is a grave betrayal of other Alanon members.

You are being abused. Abuse does not have to be physical, it can be mental and emotional.

If you would really have 'hell to pay' for going to an Alanon meeting then you have more serious problems than can be handled here. Find a woman's advocacy group that helps women in situations like yours. Hell, find a radical feminist, man-hating lawyer to protect your legal rights.

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: JustinExplorer ]</small>

I talked to my H about his drinking several times. Didn't work.

I asked him to slow down. Didn't work.

I drank with him. Didn't work.

I stopped drinking with him. Didn't work.

Nothing worked until I established firm boundries about what needed to happen to continue MC and stay in our M.

I can't even tell you how many times I was told by H that I had it good. He took care of me and my kids, he didn't hurt me or abuse me, went to work everyday, he was harmless, etc.

H just drank, got stupid and passed out! Over and over again. My H also was never in an accident, never arrested for DUI...nothing.

I did not realize how manipulated I was, lied to, how bad I enabled H until I started going to Al-Anon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is an al anon meeting in our hometown, but I don't dare go there. We are very well known here. If I showed my face there and it gets back to him I'd have hell to pay. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please don't let this stop you. Al-Anon is for you and has nothing to do with him. And, as Justin stated, the meetings are confidential.

Good Luck!

sss

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

Danneill,

Lordslady, yes I read your posts and was stunned at what he said to you. Had he been drinking when he said that?

It was stated over the phone, so I can't say for sure, but yes, that night he sounded like he had some in him.

All the things that others have said about their alcoholic experiences match mine pretty well, except that my husband at this point will actually acknowledge that he has a problem with alcohol. However, because he won't deal with reality, he uses it to numb himself. He's been convicted of two DUI's (12 years ago), could have been killed in an auto accident (1st DUI) where he rolled his truck and was ejected through the front window.

(MelodyLane, you will be happy to hear that I am recognizing that a "true" Plan A has had no effect on the current situation. However, I'm still not convinced I want to go to a totally N/C Plan B, or rather do what SSS did and still have some contact.)

So, Danniell, not a lot of advice other than what others have said about the alcohol (if you feel it's a problem, it most likely is) and my experience about an A (again, if you see red flags like secrecy and a change in behavior, don't live in denial. I saw it, too, and I was right. There was an A going on.)

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Danneill:
<strong>

There is an al anon meeting in our hometown, but I don't dare go there. We are very well known here. If I showed my face there and it gets back to him I'd have hell to pay.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You already ARE paying hell. Quit keeping his secrets for him. All those people are at Alanon for the same reason you are. It is an anonymous meeting. Please don't use that as an excuse to not go. The whole town probably knows he drinks too much anyway.