Chatwithu > Thank you for offering some open and honest dialog. Perhaps you could share with me in this forum what you would have me do, if you were my friend. Most of the fervent advice is that you/her would be better of abandoned to find your own way. <P>And this is what astounds me. So much decision-making being made for what is best for "the little woman" . . . <P>Why am I attracted to her ? For the most part, because she has done just about everything to save her marriage, and yet it has failed. Counseling, church, family . . . damned near submitting to all the pressures from friends, family and her faith to do "the right thing" . . . "for the kids" , and so forth. And yet here we find these "upitty" women who are beginning to like the idea of living their lives for themselves, and not others.<P>She is a wonderful mother, and wife. She routinely defends her husband as being a good man. I am leary of women who put their husbands down. But the fact still remains. As we all grow, there are no guarantees that we grow together.<P>So do you/her find a man such as myself all that horrible of a person for being willing, and able, to remain loyal to someone, albeit a "woman" if for no other reason that this is what I would want if I were in her shoes ?<P>Toronto > What am I going to do ? Well, first of all, nothing . . . actually. Routinely maintain an open line of communications with my friend, and wait for her. No more, no less. Despite all the very good reasons to let go, and let God . . . my overwhelming desire to be her friend first and foremost simply does not adversely affect the male ego at all. I have learned a long time ago to accept the things that I can not change, and to change the things that I can. So here I am in this forum, trying to learn how to be a friend to a an as yet divorced woman whom I truly do care for, and love. <P>What am I going to do ? Be right here for her when she wants me, needs me, or just wants to yell and scream at me for being here at all.

Hi Carlton<P>Will you feel pain if she decides to stay in her marriage? You are already in "love" with her?<P>Can she come on here and get support to build her marriage? Will you show her this WebSite? Can you see from all other posts here that her best course of action is for MW and her H to seek professional help and how you are contributing to her bad marriage?<P>

I have a question.<P>Do you always want something you can't have? <P>You seem to want our approval for your attitude toward marriage, and your selfish desires. You also seem to have a desire for a woman who is not free to give herself to you. <P>Maybe your desire to over achieve is a deeper issue you don't want to examine.<P>If the answer is yes, which I suspect it is if you are truly honest with yourself, then my question would be "Why?"

Toronto > Truth ? Of course I would feel pain. All the horrific agony any man would feel, just as her H must be enduring. The analogy of a separation/divorce with a death in the family is close, yet the closure, the funeral never seems to come. <P>Work on her marriage here ? Of course not. Call me selfish, and inconsiderate . . . whatever. I never would offer any public conection between MWW and OM (myself) until she would give me her permission to do so. Not my call . . . <P>Trustntruth > What I am asking for here is some insight as to how I can be more supportive in the future relationship MWW and myself anticipate by learning skills necessary to survive the wake of the flood.

Why won't you answer my question truthfully?<P>Are you afraid of your answers? Would that mean you would have to address this issue?

You want us to be supportive of your efforts for her in the future, but you won't hear us when we tell you you should not and have absolutely no reason for "being there" for her now.

Trustntruth > Not at all. To answer your question directly " . . . do I always want what I can not have . . . " The answer is often yes. But not always. And not always as if I "want" as in, to possess or claim as being owned by me. <P>I came here to seek counsel as to how I could better prepare myself to receive the remnants of a broken marriage. Yet, all I seem to get is condemnation for actually caring about preparedness. You seem to cling to some illusion that today's social institutions are structered similarly to those of our parent's and grandparent's, and so on.<P>Perhaps fifty years ago, this would be true. But as a man who is unafraid of the 21st Century, and the increasingly liberation of today's woman, I feel it is necessary to at least try and accept the notion that the future isn't what it used to be.<P>So, Trustntruth, my answer is no, not always. I can't change the world. All I can do is try to make the space that I occupy a better place to be, and to share this space and time with someone who wants to do the same. I am not greedy, or possessive. My time is very valuable to me, and how I choose to spend it, and with whomever is willing to spend theirs with me.<P>So for now, all that I CAN do is be here for her, and wait. Not what I want, nor what I can have any other way. Just the way it is . .

Stay away from this MW....Her marriage and what goes on in it, really isn't any of your business...It is something that is private between her and her husband....and ONLY her and her husband....

The main thing that attracts you to her is her submitting to outside pressure? And that she wants to live for others, to the denial of herself?<P>You must like martyrs, eh Carlton?

Carlton,<BR>Try these. The lady thinks clearly and she's been there. A pro. Perhaps these will address your concerns more directly and constructively.<BR>http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/quest107.html How Long Do I Wait?;<BR>quest050 Should I Have An Affair?;<BR>044 Which Man & Which Lifestyle?;<BR>017 How Do I Know What I Really Want?;<BR>035 Can An Affair Lead To Marriage?;<BR>075 What Is An Affair?;<BR>084 Should I Go Ahead With Divorce?;<BR>081 Should We Give Up & Move On?;<BR>091 When Will We Know We Want to Stay Together?;<BR>094 Is It Best To Stay?;<BR>003 Help For The Third Party?<BR> Please, actually read these things. Give them a chance. They may be what you're looking for.<BR>Dave<BR>

David P. > Thank you, David. This is all I really came here for, and not to create havoc or imply that these issues are "entertaining" me. Again, thank you . . . this site you have referenced has been most helpful.