So I've been not answering my H's phonecalls, especially because they've been coming this week after I've gone to bed. Tonight, he calls 4x after 1am, and then since I didn't answer, he showed up here and leaned on my apt buzzer forever until I let him in. I should also mention that the two phone messages that he left when he called here were:

1) Just me, um, I obviously don't hate you as much as you hate me, um, I know you're the best I'll ever have had, and that's kind of depressing, and it's the 4th weekend in a row that I've sat at home waitinf for you to call me and I obviously that's not going to happen, i'm so sorry that you hate me so much, it's not your fault really, I suppose, what can you do.

2) Could you at least call me and tell me that I'm wasting my time and that the effort is too little too late, can you at least tell me that, please, it's the one thing I ask for, honestly it's all I ask for, I know Tom Lykas says don't be desperate, but please just f***ing tell me if I'm wasting my time, all I need is for you to tell me that I'm wasting my time, if you want to do that in the next 2 minutes it's all I need to hear.

After he spent some time here and he tried to hold me and tried to be nice to me and tried to kiss me, and tried to tell me that he thought he'd been trying hard for the past few weeks, BUT I told him that I just didn't have my heart in it, that I've detached myself so much from him, that I trust him so little (and I told him so), then he tried to keep kissing me and made sexual advances so I stopped him and then here we go again, anger and an inability to talk constructively.

I tried to tell him how I just can't have sex without feeling like I am sure that he cares about me as a person, that I need to spend time with him without sex first, but he could care a less. He talked about how what a blow to his ego it is to be rejected by me.

And then after all of it, he leaves, because I'm not up for having sex. He kept repeating that he thinks that I hate him, and I told him that I don't, but he said, yes I do (or else I wouldn't reject him). I then foolishly poorly chose my words and told him I'm sorry, I just can't do this marriage thing, and he said oh great nice words to end on and left, and I told him as he walked out the door that I was sorry for my choice of words and that I care about him regardless.

So he gets in the car and we had a couple of conversations on his cell phone that I can barely recall now, mostly with me trying to point out what I think and feel and him telling me how he's sure he's done all that he can, and that he knows I hate him, etc.

One thing I do recall is that he thinks that by writing me a cheque for some more money above and beyond the legal settlement that he was telling me that he cared, and I should've figured that out.

Another thing that I told him that I tried to be clear and kind in my note to him about filing the Dv papers. He said okay I can try to reread that and think of that then if that's what you want. He said I haven't even brought up those papers, and here you go bringing them up again. He said he's been trying to live in the here and now and not bring up the past, and I keep bringing it up now. He said either you love someone and forgive them for the past or you don't.

In the last one of those conversations, he said I love you and I'm sorry, goodnight (click). He waits nearly two years to tell me that he loves me and he has to do it like this.

So I call him back (yes, perhaps playing into his games some of you may say), to tell him look, if you really want to spend time with me, how about we actually make some plans in advance for once and try tomorrow night, and he says no, forget it, I've tried my best for the past 4 weekends, forget it, click.

Then I phoned him again and said something about how I appreciate how he swallowed his pride and told me how he really felt, that he loved me, but that I wish it hadn't had to come out like this, and that if we both still care about each other we should find a way to make this work, and to call me back if he wants or I'll talk to him tomorrow. He calls back about 5 mins later and invites me over. I say nothing to him, I guess I am in shock, he hangs up. I call him back and say that if he can handle me coming over there and not having sex, I will consider coming, to which he says no, then don't come.

So I'm not going. I don't want to go there at all really. In the past, I've still had strong feelings of sexual attraction towards him, and really did want to be with him, but knew better. Now, I don't even have the slightest desire to be with him sexually. Even kissing him didn't really feel right or that good tonight. It felt a little like kissing a stranger, yet oddly familiar too.

Somewhere in all our talking, he told me how I need to date other guys to find out how poorly they're going to treat me so that I will realize that I will never have better than him. He's told me this over and over in our last several conversations.

I think I could try spending time with him if it weren't involving sex, but he can't handle that.

Mortarman, if you're reading this, good for you for actually staying with your wife when you're going a little nuts because you really want sex. But some advice too, work on the friendship part of your relationship, make her feel like you listen to her and value her thoughts and feelings. As several have said on your thread, women need emotional intimacy before physical.

I tried the "give him sex" and hope for the emotional intimacy to return method for so long, to no avail.

I guess I should've expected things to get messy. Divorce isn't supposed to be easy.

I am still so surprised that he finally told me that he loves me. So why can't he try being with me without the sex then?

But I've detached myself so much from him, and trust him so little, I don't think we can rebuild this marriage. I know I can't do it without rebuilding our friendship first, if he were actually capable of that. I feel so distant from him.

Maybe this post is a bit long and rambling, but I needed to type this since I can't sleep and it's circling around in my head anyway.

Why did he wait until now to tell me that he loves me? Did he mean it or was he that desperate for sex? He was trying to be so tender and seemed so in need of holding me when he got here. He was so desperate for me to welcome him and be nice to him. I am a little, no VERY confused by his behaviour.

From some of the things he says, I think he finally gets it maybe. But we seem unable to dance to the same tune.

I don't know what to think really.

Edited to add: The way he invites me over is by saying, "the garage is open if you want to come over." (Nice isn't it, he feels the need to hide my car in the garage if I go there.) About 15 minutes after our last convo he just called back and said "the garage is closing," to which I just gently said "okay" and he hung up. He was holding out hope that I'd come after I'd made it clear I wasn't coming if it was about sex. Geeze I don't understand him.

Jen

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen: "So why can't he try being with me without the sex then?"

JR: Aye, there's the rub (sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ). Seriously Jen, his words are worthless without action to back them - you know that.

Sounds like he's still willing to find excuses for himself, to justify, justify, justify (e.g. "forget it, I've tried my best for the past 4 weekends, forget it, click"). He still wants the privilege of rejecting you when he "feels like it" - nuts to that, I say!

As for not being attracted to him: can anyone blame you??!! I'd suggest 90% of attraction isn't physical, but in how he makes you feel. He has a lot to learn and you've got a right to expect more after putting in a lot of willingness before.

You have every right to tell him to NOT come over to your place uninvited, NOT to call after certain hours, etc. He wants to hear the words indicating whether he doesn't "have a chance" anymore?? Well Jen, kind of sounds like an opportunity - a test of where you've arrived at in your life...

Good luck!

Hello,

How very sad. To a manipulator words mean absolutely nothing. It sounds like he does not have a clue what love is especially toward you.
You judge a person by his actions and not his words. Maybe when he says he loves you he means I would love to have sex with you. A manipulator is a manipulator is a manipulator. Words have no meaning except to manipulate another person.

Imagine in the future being in a mature relationship with someone who truly loves and respects you as a person. Why are you wasting your time with such a sexist selfish immature manipulating person? My guess it that you enjoy the attention no matter how sick and pathetic it is to you and your self esteem. I hope I am wrong but don't you think it is time for you to wake up? I wish you luck.

Jen try this exercise.

Substitute "I really need sex" everytime he says he loves you.

I really really do love you (I really really need sex)

Do you know how much I love you? (Do you know how much I really need sex)

I never stopped loving you. (I never stopped really needing sex with you)

All I want to do is show you how much I love you. (I really need to show you how much I really need sex)

And my all time favorite...

Then you must really hate me. (because can't you tell I really need sex)

Get it Jen? He's just playing you because you are a sure score in his mind. As Michael McDonald put it he "keeps forgetting your not in love anymore".

His actions border on stalking...and are DEFINATLY harrassment.

Jen, he WILL NOT change. This HAS NOT woken him up. He's just losing his toy and he's mad about it so he reverts to manipulating. It's what he knows. Please...PLEASE tell me you see this. I know you can't help but feel hopeful and happy that he's FINALLY saying all the things you've wanted to hear for so long. But listen to your head.

Here's a twist - how about asking HIM for some space. 6 months to "think" about things. Tell him YOU need some time alone to see how you feel about things. He sure thought you should grant that to HIM - I highly doubt he'll give you the same consideration.

Jen, here's the info on what's going on. Most men equate sex with showing their wives that they love them. That's how they "connect" the act of sex. But it's also tempered with other ways to show your love when you are a healthy, sound functioning, man. Especially so, if the man is Christian.

Your husband is still very screwed up in the head, an emotional and spiritual infant, and all he has left to "express" his feelings is sex. He equates it with showing his love. It IS a difference in how many men view the sex act and how women view it.

But unless he is ready to face himself and make the changes that will lead him to being and "adult man," you are fooling yourself if you think about reversing course on the divorce. If you do, he will NOT have the "incentive" to make the hard changes necessary and to accept the hard fact that he has problems that must be addressed regardless of whether or not you are in his life.

At best, if you see signs that he might be willing to take the hard steps and begin to address some of his problems you could "delay" the final date on the divorce, but don't give in to the sex attempts or it's back to square one.

Yes, it seems like the "dam" might be cracking a little and I know how long you've been looking for some sign, but you must stay the course now because if he is for real, then you need to help "force" him the rest of the way by standing firm that it's "real and complete change" or you are not interested in perpetuating more of the same.

(((((Jen))))) It continues to be tough. Just thought a little hug might help.

God bless.

Jen,

I'll just chime in here too and say ditto to what everyone else said but also,if you have read any of my posts,you have to look at what the ACTIONS are of your H,friend,lover,spouse,whomever.Not what they SAY.The time to listen to what they say in earnest is when they can back up in action what they are trying to convey.

Be strong and don't let him in,don't answer the phone and don't encourage him.Like I mentioned before,you BOTH need some time apart to do some growing and self reflection.That can't happen if you are continuing that warped cycle again and you are.Don't try to understand him,keep your distance.

O

Jen, you gotta admit it... he's good... I mean he's REALLY GOOD. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He so tactifully switched things around from him begging you for sex, to YOU being the one calling him. Although it was HIM that came to you, he twisted things around in such a way that now YOU feel guilty for having offerred your love to him.

Manipulation at its extreme. Sigh!

I do hope you see this Jen. He's still trying to suck you into his game.

And as a suggestion... the next time he shows up at your door, constantly buzzing you (especially so late at night!)... how about you call the police instead? That would have been a far better choice, IMO.

Karen

Thank-you everyone for your thoughts and encouragement. I wish he wasn't so good at pushing my buttons, so good at manipulating me. But even if he pulled at my heart strings some last night, and regardless of if he ever starts showing me reasonable actions, the Dv is going through, I will not stop it. If he really means business, he'd have to court me and remarry me someday.

Sorry I don't have anymore to say, but then again maybe brevity is a good thing sometimes!

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, I know Tom Lykas says don't be desperate </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I don't know how much you know about Tom Leykis. He's the biggest [censored] since who knows when. Been married 5 times I think. His mantra is "treat women like poop and they'll do anything for you".

Remember when he used to tell you your MBers friends were giving you the wrong advise? I'd tell him he better rethink the stupidity and morality of of Tom Leykis if her ever wants to have a quality relationship with a woman.

Jen:

I agree wholeheartedly with ForeverHers on this one.

This man isn't an adult emotionallly or spir2ally. I don't know if he'll ever ma2re. I don't really know if he CAN ma2re.

You're on the right path. Stay strong.

-ol' 2long

Hey there mthrhbrd and 2long. It's been awhile! I hope all is well with both of you.

Indeed, he has to learn a lot about how to treat a woman if he wants to be loved in return (Tom Lykas' perspective on things is all about how to "get" a woman, as in "get" her into bed, not about how to make a woman fall in love with you and have a healthy relationship to be sure). He also really needs to grow and develop some maturity. Sometimes in his needy rants (that he probably thinks are filled with nice, persuasive, rational sounding reasoning), he really just sounds a bit like a little boy throwing a temper tantrum because he's not getting what he wants.

I just got home to a message from him saying he'd rented a movie and wanted to know if I'd like to come over. I called and declined b/c I have marking and laundry to do - I was out snowboarding all afternoon on a beautiful sunny and warm day I might add! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I was impressed, he didn't get pouty or put me down for not wanting to go over there, he just said, okay then, talk to you later, end of call.

I know, really, I should just probably cut off communication, but....hmmm, I'm not sure what the "but" is other than I don't seem to have the nerve, I seem to feel sorry for him or something.

I'm feeling so good today. It's almost my 31st birthday, and how did I spend my day today? I got up early, ran 10km, had lunch and went snowboarding for 3 hours. I am cool!

Well, dirty socks (among other things) are calling!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I applaud your strength!

ayslyne

Wow Jen,

He is good. He wants his old life back...where he could call you up any time and get SF and then kick you to the curb the next day...no emotional attachment, no intimacy, just physical gratification.

His manipulation to pull you back into the old dance works somewhat (you called him back). Now he knows if he tells you he loves you...you will come back. He also knows that if he can just TALK to you, he can talk you into anything...even if it's reassuring him you don't hate him (which by the way I think you do somewhat, you can just agree with him next time).

Soooooo, why be in contact? Y not set down rules of when you will talk with him? e.g. between the hours of 6-9 p.m., want to meet, ask at least 24 hours ahead of time, and meet only in public areas. He will break every rule the first day...can you not answer your phone? Can you turn off your ringer? Can you shut off your door bell? Can you shut and lock your door? Can you warn him if he comes over late at night again you will call the police? I know, it sounds tough, and you have had a hard time being tough with him because you think he will hate you. But what does he think of you know?

Jen,

Exactly what pla are you in? You should be in Plan B and NC. Either you should be heading for divorce, and thus there is NC and you are getting on with your life. Or, you are letting him sit in his mess, until he is ready to be an adult again and do what it takes.

You are posting here all of this, and I believe it is because deep down, you do want him to "get it" and to come home. But not as the manipulater he is. SSssooooooo............

Go to Plan B now and saty there. Everytime he calls or says if you would just give him a chance, then give him one. How? By sending him another copy of the PBL, which will tell him exactly how to get his chance.

Until then, he is using you. Even in your fights, he is getting something out of it. You are actually HELPING him stay right where he is at, because he can invent anger toward you. Which will help him be happy with what he is doing.

STOP IT NOW! send PBL, and go to NC. The PBL will tell him what is expected. Keep sending it to him when he calls.

He is showing you no respect. And you are not respecting yourself either. Cut this out. Tell the man to get his act straight, get rid of OW, get counseling, etc...or get out of your life.

This in between stuff is just making matters worse, and probably ruining any chance you have that this man might pull his head out of his you know what.

Oh, thanks for the advice on the Sf thing with my wife. I know what you say is true. But of course, I am a man, full of very strong hormones. And it has been a long time. If anyone would have told me I would have waited this long in my life, I would have thought them crazy. Must be love, huh?

In His arms.

Mortarman, he shows her less respect than a man shows a prostitute - because he's expecting it for free.

He can treat Jenn like the stuff he scrapes off his shoes, won't be seen in public with her, lays it on her when she gets fed up with that kind of treatment and say, "Well, I was about to change my mind, but since you did this, well, it's back to the shoe scum treatment for you..."

He wants to use her for sex - he coult get it from a prostitute too, but he'd be expected to pay something to a prostitute - Jen's free... he will put nothing into relationship building, etc.

Jen - hopefully you won't cave this time. Because he'll eventually get the message that his manipulation doesn't work - you care enough for yourself that you won't give in to trash-treatment anymore.

Remember, if you cave into the manipulation, you are essentially doing that random reward behavior they use on training dogs - they will do a bad behavior forever if they know that eventually they can wear you down.

Put the dog out... permanently! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks for the posts that were made today, I'll try to respond to them later. I just got back on the rollercoaster again.

My H tried calling here 4 times tonight, starting at 6pm. When he just called again at like 9pm, I figured I'd better answer or he'd keep calling even after I try to go to bed.

He wanted to know why I wasn't answering earlier, and the conversation fell apart from there again. He told me that gee I really do hate him again, that I am so full of anger, that I really need to go for some counselling. He originally callled at 6 wanting to know if I'd like to go out for dinner. He went on again about how he'd been making so much of an effort lately, only to be rejected by me. I told him how I thought his only intentions were to get me over there to spend the night when he invited me over last night for a movie. That made him mad.He said he forgave me for filing the Dv papers - a bit of an odd thing to say. He directly asked what I wanted, what did I want from him. I told him I want friendship and nothing more at this point, nothing romantic. He said he never ever thought we were really done at all, until I said that tonight. He said a few things that sounded somehow like the H I once loved, brought me to tears, and then he wished me well in life and hung up. I tried to call him back, told him he deserved someone who was more perceptive to his needs, someone who was less angry and who would treat him better, I told him that I was sorry, and I said I don't know what you ever saw in me other than how nice he thought I looked, and then hung up. He didn't call back. I have the distinct feeling this might be the end of contact. Which is what I thought I wanted.

One thing that really pulls at my heart, is when he said that I was without a doubt the best he would ever have or get, and he said something like but you don't think I'm the best you'll ever get do you? And I just said nothing, and he said, nope, you sure don't do you? You really hate me. My silence was painfully harsh to him, I could tell, and that tears at my heart so much. I never wanted to hurt him, but here I go again.

There was sincerity in his voice tonight, genuine hurt too. Shock and almost disbelief that I really didn't want to be romantically involved with him anymore. It wasn't the voice a cold-hearted manipulative pr*** as I seem to have painted him out to be. It was the voice of the man I once loved more than anything.

BUT you know what is the saddest part? 3 or 6 months ago if he'd told me that he loved me and that I was the best he'd ever get, I'd have been on here posting happily about it, with optimism for our relationship. But I'm in such a wierd place that I found it almost annoying. My trust for him is so low I thought it was manipulation on his part trying to get me to have sex. That's the perception 99% of people on MB have of him, so how can it be wrong?

Here I sit fearful that I just shut the one man in my life that will ever love me the way he did, that I will ever love as much as I did, only to be alone forever trying to fill the void.

It should be a relief that he finally has clued in to how I've built walls around my heart and decided I want to live my life without him, but it hurts, and it scares me. Maybe I sucked at cutting off contact with him because it made me feel good deep down inside to still know that he cares, even if he wasn't able to care for me in a way that made me feel secure and happy.

Dammit I can't stop crying, and I don't feel like I can talk to any of my friends about this except you guys. I have a desperate urge to call my H again, but I have no clue what to say, or what I want to say.

What the heck is wrong with me? I swear I worry that I have walked away from him b/c it's what everyone around me seems to want me to do (MB friends, non-MB friends and family). I worry that I've walked away from him for that reason and that I'll be sitting alone and childless 10 or 15 years down the road, still bawling my eyes out for what could've been.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

PS: What the heck is wrong with me?? As I sit here I find myself longing to be in his arms, and have him hold me and tell me he loves me, and that he's sorry, and that he can forgive me, and that everything will be alright. It seems almost insane to have such a desire, when my rational side seems so capable of listing a million reasons why I should move on and live life without my H.

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I'm a pathetic and/or sick person perhaps, but I called him again, and no answer. I left him a message, that went something like this (I wrote down what I wanted to say before I called):

"I'm so sorry for everything, I so wish that we could've ended up together and happy. You made me so happy for so many years. I want you to know that I don't hate you, not at all, that I will always love you. And if you don't have it in you to stay in touch with me, I wish you all the best too, I really do. I'm so sorry for how I've apparently changed, I never meant to hurt you, I really didn't. Take care, goodbye."

At least leaving that message has left me a little more at peace and the tears are starting to subside.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />