</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:


The locks have been changed on the house.

I don't think I can technically do that without a formal, legal separation. And he still has a LOT of stuff of his here, especially in the garage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no reason you can't change the locks, just make arrangements for him to come get his stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He has his own checking account--made him get it right after Christmas. The thing is, I do transfers of the weekly child support $ from his account to our (my) account because it's the easiest and most sure way to get them. He gets paid weekly. I wait until I see his check deposited, and I zap the $. I just might have a finances issue if the check didn't go in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, then make that arrangement in your letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I'm actually far more afraid his response will be F-you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it may well be. That's ok. But his anger will probably dissipate quick and turn to fear when he sees you mean it and that his huffing and puffing has no effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You'd have to know him. He's EXTREMELY sensitive about guys saying "we love you, John" or trying to give hugs--especially when he doesn't know them. He has a very wide "personal space". I think he probably went out that night and drank to drown the "we love you's".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats just an excuse to avoid quit drinking. If he wants to get sober he'll have to tolerate it. They are sober, he is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, all... I'll try yet another version and maybe post it, too. I will promise it will still be too wordy, and may still be too sappy, but like I said "personal touch". I'll try to do better, though.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">nonono, promise us that it WON'T be those things. It really needs to be as effective as possible. It needs to be written to SUIT YOUR AUDIENCE, not used as a vehicle to get your "feelings" out. The purpose is not to pour out your bleeding heart, but to have an impact on HIM. If you are too sappy and verbose he won't read it and if it's too vague, he won't GET IT. You have to be straightforward and concise. Sappy will just turn him off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing besides finances that is going to be difficult to not contact about is my daughter's schooling. She is now attending an alternative HS (yeah for her...been in school a whole week now!). Mon-Thurs we're fine, but Fridays are a special arragement - 10am-noon. I do the drop off and he's agreed to do the pick-up. However, it's not guaranteed she'll have school each Friday. They can get "free days" about once a month if they earn all their points. I won't know until probably the day before. How do we work that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will have to tell us how you can do this with no contact. You have to figure it out.

Okay, draft 5. yes,yes,yes...still a bit of foofoo in it. Analogy still there, too. But it's shorter, and definitely more to the point and less emotional than probably anything I've written him in the last 10 years. (BTW: don't worry about any hidden meaning in the ending comment. Springer is his Harley--the other love of his life.)

Not sure how to arrange the schooling thing yet. I think I have a few weeks before the next free day comes--they just had one a week ago.

-----------------------------------------------
The hardest thing I’ve gone through in my life up to this point is what I’ve been experiencing for the last few months. Watching your affair and then your descent back into active alcoholism after two years of not drinking has been devastating to me, and to the kids. I thought I was doing the right thing when you asked me to give you time to get your head on straight. Four months later, I realize it has actually been the worst thing I could have done for both of us.

Your behavior is starting to impair my feelings for you and it’s because of this, I’m asking you to respect my request to cut off all contact for now. Please know that I am not asking this to punish you, but rather to protect the love that I have for you in the hopes that you will someday decide to end your affair and stop drinking.

I know that my being gone so often at work and ignoring my responsibilities as a wife and mother contributed to the circumstances that lead to your affair. During this time, I will focus on the changes I need to make in my life so that I am a better person and have more understanding of what it takes to make our relationship successful. I’m going to pursue Al-Anon as well.

Here is analogy I read that I think makes a lot of sense: “The doctor tells you that your loved one has a serious heart problem. If surgery is done, there is a 3% chance they may not survive. However, if it’s let go, there is a very good chance they will die from the condition. You have to make the choice.”

You have a very serious condition (the affair, compounded by alcohol dependence.) Because of my love for you, I want more than anything for you to get well. I am willing to take a chance of losing you during “surgery”, knowing that if it’s successful, it will heal you and give our marriage hope of surviving through the years. I pray daily for your healing—physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

As far as finances go, I will plan on continuing to transfer the $165/week from your account on the Monday after each of your paydays. This way you’ll know exactly when you need to deduct it from your check register. And when the tax refunds come, I will pay off your balance on the credit card and will then mail you a check for the remainder of your half. This should be within a couple weeks.

Until you have completely ended all contact with the east side, and are pursuing help to maintain sobriety (AA or other program—they’re not all like the one you attended years ago), I would request that you not contact me unless it’s an emergency. If you make these changes and are still interested in coming home and working on our marriage, please call me and let’s talk.

Just know that I believe that our marriage could be wonderful under the right circumstances. I love you very much and want so much for that to happen some day (you, me, Springer…mountains…or desert, maybe).

<small>[ February 21, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

okay, now we are talking! This is really good, LL. It is clear, concise and lays out your boundaries. I would change this:

"If you make these changes and are still interested in coming home and working on our marriage, please call me and let’s talk."

TO

"If you make these changes, please call and we can discuss reconciliation."

I sort of wish you would remove this entire paragraph:
"I know that my being gone so often at work and ignoring my responsibilities as a wife and mother contributed to the circumstances that lead to your affair. During this time, I will focus on the changes I need to make in my life so that I am a better person and have more understanding of what it takes to make our relationship successful. I’m going to pursue Al-Anon as well."

I don't really buy that anything you did led to his affair and my concern about putting that paragraph in here is that he, as a TYPICAL BLAMESHIFTING ALCOHOLIC, will seize on this as an excuse to blame you. If he can seize on that, then he can avoid looking looking at himself that much longer. He doesn't take accountability for his actions as would a normal person so I am leery of giving him that ammunition. Can you take that out?

What do you mean by "east side?" Is that the OW?

Also, I would like to hear the other's feedback on your letter.

Yes, east side is her. Someone else started it but it works...and I don't have to say her name. Makes it less personal and annoying for me. She's east side, I'm west side. Areas of town we're from, as well as lifestyles we lead.

Okay, I made the first wording change.

The paragraph about my causing some of the problems, I feel, does need to stay. Because I've concentrated on him on these posts, I haven't really had a need to explain what I've done. But for a number of years, and the last two have been especially bad due to systems conversions we've been doing, my normal time to leave work at night was between 8-9pm. Then during my busy seasons it was more like 11pm-midnight. I was really only around on weekends to be a wife and mom. When all this first started, even before he started drinking again, one of the things that came out over and over was that he had felt trapped, disrespected, and taken for granted. Part of it--he's selfish. But truly, because the kids were teens and able to pretty much fend for themselves, I just assumed that as long as I was doing a great job at work and making decent money, all was well, I never had any energy to clean, to cook, or to do much anything that would have fostered a relationship. The house was messy, the kids were disrespectful, and pretty much the only time H and I really spent together on a quality basis was the Saturday night or Sunday afternoon meal that we ate out nearly every weekend. Other than that, it was basically existing--and a lot of that was my fault.

So in a way, he should get a little credit (no, not in my letter) for staying dry for 2 years. I'll guarantee I didn't make it easy.

Okay, my D has left yet another message on her brother's answering machine saying she's staying with another friend tonight, but she said she'd be home tomorrow because she was going to "Dad's". He apparently invited her to spend time with him on Sunday when he picked her up from school yesterday, and I'm surprised, but she's actually considering it.

Obviously I'm not going to be able to do get the letter to him BEFORE he sees her. Give me some ideas of how I get it to him (in person? when I pick her up or he drops her off? mail?) and how to best go about it.

I'm exhausted...going to sleep, so won't be looking for answers 'til tomorrow. Thanks everyone for your advice thus far.

Hi all,

Well, I took my latest draft of my letter to church this morning and asked my pastor's opinion (we have a small church so he knows me fairly well). He said it looked solid to him, and that he encourages me to be strong on both the "A's" I addressed (the alcohol and the affair).

I'll admit still being really afraid of all this (as I'm sure everyone was). Those comments in Dr. Harley's Plan A/Plan B article about Plan B having risks because "out of sight, out of mind" can mean that even after the A ends, the WS may well decide not to reconcile or return home.

That's one of the things I've always worried about. But I know, what I'm doing now isn't working either.

(I just want that impossible guarantee that somehow, if I do what I'm supposed to here, I will be looking back on all this from a much more solid marriage with him a year from now, and not as a single woman.)

Okay, so what is the best way to deliver a Plan B letter? Like I said, he doesn't have a computer or email at his place. All we have is in person or via snail mail.

And with Plan B, is it going to be a no-no to mail him a very simple birthday card in a couple weeks, just to let him know I thought of him?

Uh oh...how do deal with this situation:

WH just called...he's back in town. Told him D is planning on seeing him today, whenever she decides to return her wayward rear to this house from her friends. He asked me to call him when she gets home.

I told him it would be good if maybe they could play some pool and then perhaps go out to eat together. He wants me to be there, too. I suggested it would be better for them to have 1-on-1 time. He says, "I see how you are."

Not wanting to LB right now (and him not having the letter yet), I just said "we'll see."

Do I go with them, then after we're done, give him the letter. Seems like a dirty way to do it--"Hey lets all go to dinner, but by the way, go out of my life now."

How to handle...how to handle...???? Help??

LL,

I don't think you should go to dinner. I think that you greet him at the door, tell him that you simply cannot make it tonight, and hand him the letter.

Tell him, "Please read this carefully and thoroughly. It will explain a lot, including why I cannot have dinner with you tonight. You two have a great time and I'll see you later."

Don't let him bait you into an argument or LB by the "I see what you're doing," etc. If he tries something like that, just smile and say, "Neither of us is a mind reader, H, so please, just read what I have written to you in the letter." Then turn and go about doing something important, even if you have to get into your car and leave.

Good luck, LL. I've been lurking on your thread and I know you can do this. Many of us have been where you are. It is difficult. Yes, it's frightening, but trust me, it will bring you peace in your life. Meanwhile, get involved in Al-Anon and then start doing some wonderful things just for you.

Oh yeah, and...

no birthday card. No acknowledgement whatsoever that it is his birthday. Let OW take care of that. Many of us here have spent birthdays apart, anniversaries, and other important dates.

Plan B = no contact. Period.

Listen to *Sparkle.* She is one bright lady. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Agree with Sparkle, just hand him the letter and say what she said.

THEN, you MUST start going to Al-anon, LL. And SOON. They will bolster your resolve in sticking to your guns here.

It is really important that you live up to your Plan B and cease contact or he will NEVER respect you. You will be in a WORSE OFF situation if you relent on this. Do you see that? He will know he can play you like a fiddle in the future if you back down. The purpose here is to prove to him that he can't play you.

If you don't think you can stick to this, I wouldn't DO IT YET.

Okay guys, you're confusing me now (and it doesn't take much lately)...

You say if I don't do it, I'll lose him, because we're in such a mess. But you say don't do it if I can't stick to it. I'm not sure of my strength from one minute to the next--let alone thinking it could be months.

BTW: D hasn't showed up from her friend's yet (it'd be great if she'd ever leave a message with a phone number where I could reach her) so don't know if she and WH will do anything tonight after all.

If they don't, how do I get letter to him, or should I still wait a few days and try to build up a few more LU's before I do?

Help me! Help me!

And as for how to spend holidays: It was on MY birthday last October (we were on vacation in Florida) whe I found out about the E/A.

He spent most of Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and all of New Year's Eve, New Year's Day and Valentine's Day with her. The only "holiday" he spent with me was our 19th wedding anniversary in January, and then he came home late, we didn't go anywhere, and we fought all night. I'm a little "gun shy" about ANY holidays anymore, but was just going to buy him either a VERY SIMPLE birthday card or just a blank note card and just mail it to his apartment.

(It's that out of sight, out of mind thing..really afraid he'll forget me or forget he loved me.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Okay guys, you're confusing me now (and it doesn't take much lately)...

You say if I don't do it, I'll lose him, because we're in such a mess. But you say don't do it if I can't stick to it. I'm not sure of my strength from one minute to the next--let alone thinking it could be months.

me! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What exactly are you confused about? I have read that twice and I still don't get it.

If he doesn't come over tonight, you will just have to make other arrangements to deliver it to him.

LL,

I know only too well the desire, the need to keep in contact. I know the fear that if you ignore his birthday, SHE will make it very special and you'll be "forgotten." It is such a temptation, but no, sweetie, you just can't.

Let me go back again to the analogy about dealing with kids - teenagers. You tell your teenager he's on restriction...can't go ANYWHERE for 2 weeks. Day 3 into the program...you realize a great movie he's been longing to see is opening. You say, "OK, just this once," and let him go.

What has just happened to your credibility? Next time you threaten him with restriction, it's going to be pretty watered down in his mind, won't it? Sure won't have much clout in terms of keeping him in line.

Such is life with the WP...while in Plan B (hey, I'm a poet...but not a very good one... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), You must lay out the ground rules, you must stick to them, no matter how tough it is on you (it's not easy sticking to those rules as a parent, either, is it?).

You're about to tell him you will have no contact with him until the OW is out of the picture. So then you send him a b'day card?

Hope you can see how wrong this is. Trust us.

Now about the fear that if you don't send the card she will be making his birthday something special and you'll look like the bad, bad wife who turned her back on her H. Remember, you are telling him in the letter that you LOVE HIM. So much that you can't continue living with the pain that his affair is bringing into the marriage, so to protect that love, you are ceasing contact until the OW is out of the picture. Yeah, he may temporarily relish the attention from her, but she is not - is not - going to be able to meet all his needs, and he will, in the back of his mind, remember what the Plan B letter says.

Stay strong, gal!

She explained that so nicely! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ML, as for being confused, it was being told by everyone to go to Plan B, but then being told that if I'm not sure I can hold to it, to not do it yet because it'll just make things worse.

----------------------------------------------
Okay, D is FINALLY home (though I'm really irritated, because she just blows in with her little apology and still can't give me phone numbers for her friends). Not the issue. The issue is that when H called me to say he was back in town and we spoke of his offer to spend time with D, he initially sounded sort of caught off guard, like perhaps he'd made other plans and forgotten his first ones.

I can now not reach him on his cell to tell him she's home now. I can also not reach him at his shop, so will assume he's either at someone's house with OW, or he's riding the Harley--most likely with her, because he'll ride in any weather over 40, and it did get to 50 today.

So I called mutual friend where he spend last night playing cards to see if they'd heard from him since he got to town. No, but then wife starts telling me he's probably ignoring me because he got the verbal statement from me on Friday that he couldn't come back home until the OW was gone and he was sober. She thinks I'm imposing impossible rules on him, and that I should back off on the sobriety issue as long as he ends the affair. I told her "so if he's gotten away with it for 4 months, if he continues to drink and hang with his single coworker, he's always going to be at risk of another."

She then said she believes if I go to N/C with him, that I should just as well kiss the marriage good-bye, and that just because Dr. Harley recommends it, he doesn't state all his failures either. She said, in her opinion, I should only go N/C if my desire is to divorce, because that's usually the only time separated spouses break contact. She also said that it will be impossible to rebuild the marriage if we aren't in contact. I said it seems like it's impossible right now, too, because he's having his cake and eating it too.

She said if I was going to do the separatin/NC thing, I should have done it when I first found out about the A, and that since I chose to "ride it out", it won't work to change my plan now.

I'm not saying she's right. I don't put more stock in her marriage-building experience than I do Dr. Harley's or Dr. Dobson's, but I do know she knows my H VERY well.

Help me get my head on straight. Pleeeezzzeeee!!!

PS...he just called while I was typing. Grumpy about the crabby cell message I left him when D got home. He said he was on his way here, but we agreed he should just go back home bacause all we would do is fight.

He is very angry because I only want him back on my terms (I guess, as opposed to his terms). Long story short, he's VERY angry about the alcohol restriction (and he doesn't even know about the Plan B letter yet).

Help me..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

She said if I was going to do the separatin/NC thing, I should have done it when I first found out about the A, and that since I chose to "ride it out", it won't work to change my plan now.

I'm not saying she's right. I don't put more stock in her marriage-building experience than I do Dr. Harley's or Dr. Dobson's, but I do know she knows my H VERY well.

Help me get my head on straight. Pleeeezzzeeee!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, you can see with your own eyes that what you are doing is not working. Why in the world she would think doing the same thing over and over again would get a different result is.....frankly, a little insane. That IS the definition of insanity, in fact. I don't think she has much experience in the marriage business and even less in the alcoholism business, so stick to your guns. If you keep doing the same thing, you will just get more of the same. Thats just common sense.

And yes, I meant it about sticking to Plan B. If you relent, you will be in a WORSE position than you were to begin with. Because then he will know you can't keep your word and that he can work you when he wants. So, it is imperative that you are prepared to stick to Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>
He is very angry because I only want him back on my terms (I guess, as opposed to his terms). Long story short, he's VERY angry about the alcohol restriction (and he doesn't even know about the Plan B letter yet).

Help me.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just calm down. He is supposed to be angry. He will be even angrier when he sees the Plan B letter. He wants his cake and wants to eat it too. And when you lay down boundaries and refuse to be available as a doormat, he won't like it.

When did you tell him about this alcohol restriction and why is he angry NOW? I feel like I missed something here.