Okay, it just keeps getting uglier tonight. I was just IM'ing mutual friend, who lives 40 miles away, and she just said she had to go quickly because my WH just pulled in their drive. He must have literally flown down there after he got off the phone with me.

She doesn't like my Plan B idea. What if she screws EVERYTHING up???? He's obviously VERY angry if he's back down there.

Now I'm a basket case. Not enough tranquilizers in the world to help me. Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!!!

ML,

We chatted Friday on the phone, not sure how it came up, but I think because he was having a really bad day and somehow we got back to us and my not calling or being sympathetic. Blah, blah, it's in one of my other threads.

In a nutshell, I told him that I loved him, but that he needs to stay in his apartment until he ends his affair and gets a handle on his drinking. I didn't say at that point I wouldn't let him back until he was totally sober, I told him he needed to be getting help for it.

He got all ticked off at that point and said he'd call me later if he calmed down. His first call back was today when he got back in town from mutual friends' where he'd been playing cards (and I'm sure, drinking).

LL,

Like I said before, he probably will be angry when you give him the letter and he sees the boundaries you are setting. But you can handle that. He will be angry when you quit your job as his doormat.

I don't know what to tell you about your friend. I guess you will just have to tell her what you decide to do. Of course, I find it odd that her expectation of Plan B is a "guarantee" when it is clear that the plan she advocates has failed.[the no-plan plan]

I'm just afraid now that she could actually harm what I'm attempting while thinking she's helping.

WH just IM'd me from her account, so I know he's down there playing cards again. By his tone, it's obvious that he still feels I'm the one in the wrong. He asked me if I'm going to be a b**** or what, and that if I can get along, to give him a call.

I mentioned that he got there rather quickly considering he said he was on his way to my place, and he responded back, "No that would be east" (reference to OW's side of town) and then said, "Oh sorry, I'm a b****". (Meaning he was just messing with me to get me angry.)

Sometimes I wish I could just wake up and not feel anything for him. He's so unfeeling right now. (And actually, I guess he's not had a thing to drink down there, so can't blame it on being drunk.)

Urgh! I am so stuck in a mess. Been IMing the mutual friend (actually H started the IM from down there and then she took over after he went back to cards) and here are exerpts of her statements basically about my Plan B (no contact) letter that I am planning to deliver:

well, you don't see it, but you are pushing away. you have every right to want things on your terms. but you won't reach your ultimate goal the direction you are heading. .....

well, you can't build trust and relationships with no contact ....

well, if you would focus a little more on your marriage and a little less on his affair, the affair could very well not be a factor

you are set on giving it to him. why drag it out

well, you need to end it now (the marriage). he has one wife that can only focus on the wrong and not what can be worked on to make it right. and yes, he has a girlfriend too

either decide how to not be so cold and unloving (because that won't get a husband back) or get the letter to him tonight

After conversations like this (because she and her H do know my H so well (the guys have been friends since preschool), it makes me want to just toss up my hands and say "I give up".

Instead, (actually, before this whole stupid IM thing even started) I composed yet a different draft (sort of a Dr. Dobson/Dr. Harley blend) of a Plan B letter.

Anyone up for reviewing it and then giving me a good thump. (MelodyLane, Ark, all you guys who have really laid into me...I'm asking for your advice as well. Seriously...)

Okay guys, here's like draft 5.5 now. I know I'm in BIG trouble because it's not an absolute blackness letter. But it's pretty dark. If all we do is call, and it's on a non-regular basis, and we're not seeing each other, then he can't fall back on me for anything. (My idea is that he thinks I'm a cold b**** right now, and that if I give him this tiny opening, maybe he'll have a better understanding of what I'm trying to do.)

Okay, get your 2x4's ready....(I still have the earlier draft saved, too)
-----------------------------------------------
The hardest thing I’ve gone through in my life up to this point is what I’ve been experiencing for the last few months. Watching your affair and then your descent back into active alcoholism after two promising years of not drinking has been devastating to me.

I thought I was doing the right thing when you asked me to give you time. Four months later, I realize how incredibly foolish I have been to tolerate your continued unfaithfulness. I guess I just loved you so much that I was willing to do anything you asked, just to keep you from leaving me.

But I’m not that person anymore. I haven’t been the perfect wife to you, to be sure, but I haven’t violated your trust repeatedly for the last several months. I’m no longer special to you—I’m just one of the women in your life. I still love you dearly, but I’d rather face the future without you than as one of your harem. I’m not sure how something so wonderful became so dirty and distorted, but that is between you and the Lord. We both have to answer to him in our own way, and I have asked for forgiveness for my past indiscretions and have a clear conscience now.

You pledged eternal love and commitment to me on our wedding day, but now you can’t decide which of us you want. This is not inspiring to me and has begun to impair my feelings for you. Because of this, I am asking that we spend time apart, not just in separate residences with continued visitation as we’ve been doing, but physically separate. Please know that I am not asking this as a step toward divorce, but rather to protect the love that I have for you, to spare myself additional pain, and to allow you to decide for yourself who or what it is you want.

You were my only love—the only one I ever wanted, and we’ve shared some wonderful memories together. But that was then, and this is now. You married me of your own free will. I realize now I can’t hold you in this marriage against your will. I don’t want a life without you, but the Lord has gotten me this far, and He’ll be with me in the future, regardless of what you decide.

I pray daily for your healing—physically, emotionally, and spiritually—and that you will allow God to guide you in the years ahead.

If you should desire to reconcile with me, and you end all contact with <other woman> and seek help for your drinking, we can talk about what we both need to do in order to begin the process. Until that time, I think it’s best that we not contact each other by phone on a regular basis and that we not see each other unless it is an emergency.

I love you very much and I believe our marriage could be wonderful under the right circumstances. However, the decision rests with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>contact) letter that I am planning to deliver:

well, you don't see it, but you are pushing away. you have every right to want things on your terms. but you won't reach your ultimate goal the direction you are heading. .....

well, you can't build trust and relationships with no contact ....

well, if you would focus a little more on your marriage and a little less on his affair, the affair could very well not be a factor

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, surely you jest. This is the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. It is insane to believe that your failed actions in the past will be successful in the future.

You can't possibly "build trust" and relationships when your H is actively drinking and living with the OW. That is preposterous and you have proven that to yourself. You can see with your own eyes it doesn't work.

LL, I am not going to waste my time here anymore. I have suspected all along that you don't WANT to change a thing. There are people on this forum who really do need help and I am here instead debating whether or not its a good idea to continue doing what you are doing but expecting different results. I wish you the best.

send that letter if you want...

DO NOT CALL IT PLAN B

call it the "I'm choosing to continue to let my husband blame me and be responsible for his choices out of fear that he will be "mad" at me...plan....

So last week he threw in your face some insane babble comment about wild sex they have...and I believe your response was to cook him hamburger helper the next day and play cards with him...
Oh yeah and told him if he was to tired to drive back to his apartment...he could sleep there...

whats the plans for this week...
more of the same I would guess...

when he got back in town from mutual friends' where he'd been playing cards (and I'm sure, drinking).

so when did the definition of friendship come to include...

giving alcohol to your husband knowing he is an alcoholic....

supporting someone no matter what painful choices they make...the affair and the affects on his children...
"come on down buddy and play cards and drink...who cares what your actions do to your children..lets be friends..."

lets be clear that EVERY and I mean EVERY interaction with your husband includes blaming and accusations at YOU...for his behavoirs...
every single interaction...

but we agreed he should just go back home bacause all we would do is fight.

so because the TWO grownups in your daughters world couldn't play nice enough together to rise above the self made chaos and bullcrappy....daughter doesn't get to see dad...
great move...
both of you...

YOU don't HAVE to fight with him...
and your inability NOT to fight with him and HIS inability NOT to fight with you has NOTHING to do with his relationship with his daughter...

from this second forward if you do nothing else...you make sure that you have no interference with him seeing his children...

Atleast make one decision and stick to it...
that you inability not to restrain yourself from insane powerstruggling..will never again stop him from seeing the kids...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Urgh! I am so stuck in a mess. Been IMing the mutual friend (actually H started the IM from down there and then she took over after he went back to cards) and here are exerpts of her statements basically about my Plan B (no contact) letter that I am planning to deliver:

well, you don't see it, but you are pushing away. you have every right to want things on your terms. but you won't reach your ultimate goal the direction you are heading. .....

well, you can't build trust and relationships with no contact ....

well, if you would focus a little more on your marriage and a little less on his affair, the affair could very well not be a factor

you are set on giving it to him. why drag it out

well, you need to end it now (the marriage). he has one wife that can only focus on the wrong and not what can be worked on to make it right. and yes, he has a girlfriend too

either decide how to not be so cold and unloving (because that won't get a husband back) or get the letter to him tonight

After conversations like this (because she and her H do know my H so well (the guys have been friends since preschool), it makes me want to just toss up my hands and say "I give up".

Instead, (actually, before this whole stupid IM thing even started) I composed yet a different draft (sort of a Dr. Dobson/Dr. Harley blend) of a Plan B letter.

Anyone up for reviewing it and then giving me a good thump. (MelodyLane, Ark, all you guys who have really laid into me...I'm asking for your advice as well. Seriously...) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you call this person a friend? Why? This is a person who ACTIVELY contributes to the demise of your marriage and family by providing a "safe harbor" for your H and his girlfriend. She provides a safe harbor and actively ENABLES and CONDONES your H in destroying you and him. And then when you dare to stand up for yourself, she BERATES you for not "being nice."

Friends don't help friends destroy themselves. Friends don't play host to an illicit affair in their own home. Friends don't enable alcoholics.

Hon, you need some new friends. Maybe some that are concerned about YOUR well being and your H's well being instead of being LIKED at any cost. She is only interested in being liked by your H, not in helping him and not in helping you. She is not your friend, LL.

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Yuck, the advice you can get from well-meaning people. You have to wonder what they would do in your situation...

When my H told his Father about the trouble we were in because of his A, he asked "How did she find out?" When H said "I told her," FIL said, "That was your first mistake..."

I have heard some crazy advice some well-meaning friends have given...just crazy. Have some confidence, you know in yoiur heart the right things to do...that's why you are here.

Here's some possible answers to youir friend...


well, you don't see it, but you are pushing away. you have every right to want things on your terms. but you won't reach your ultimate goal the direction you are heading. .....

And I can't live with him the way things are right now, with a girlfriend he rubs in my face and drinking that he knows has been a problem in our M before. I am ending contact to save myself, and save the love I still have for him, so IF/WHEN he decides he wants to have his family back, I will still have some love for him to rebuild.

well, you can't build trust and relationships with no contact ....

You are right, that's why I've been trying to work on the M for the past 4 months after finding out about OW. But H is bent on leaving and starting a life with OW. He is not able to work on our M right now until the OW and alcohol is out of our lives. I am asking him to give these things up so we can begin to recover our M.
well, if you would focus a little more on your marriage and a little less on his affair, the affair could very well not be a factor

You are right, there are things I need to change about myself in this M. But I can't live with him or even be in contact with him while he is still carrying on with her. It hurts too bad. I know you are trying to help, but I have to protect myself from getting hurt more. There have been details he has told me about his OW that were said to hurt me, and I need to protect myself and our love from any other hurtful things.

you are set on giving it to him. why drag it out

You are right. But I am still working on the wording, I want to make sure it is right because it may be the last words from me for a long time.

well, you need to end it now (the marriage). he has one wife that can only focus on the wrong and not what can be worked on to make it right. and yes, he has a girlfriend too

I know you mean well, but I'm not looking for advice, I would hope that you would support me in whatever decision I would make. I am trying to do the right thing, and I am reading from some pretty outstanding M experts. I think I'm doing the right thing, but it will take some time. I know it goes against what you think is right, but please trust me and the research I've done, or else it will be hard for me to talk with you.

either decide how to not be so cold and unloving (because that won't get a husband back) or get the letter to him tonight

I am working on acting loving, but my love is lost on a person so drowned within himself. He is like a black hole and I can't really show him love right now, I can only protect myself so I don't get sucked in. I will be here when he wakes up though. And like I said, I'm still working on the letter.

Just some ideas...and pardon me for saying this...but how dare her...making it seem like you've just got to put up with the girlfriend and the drinking or get a divorce? There is something in between.

And no, things don't work out in M 100%, but I have seen MANY success stories on here (me included).

Okay ML, Ark, etc.etc....please don't go away.

I was having a VERY bad night and very bad weekend (not just WH issues...rebellious kid, who I suspect now just stayed out later so she didn't have to see her dad, and work issues--could work til midnight for two weeks and still miss my deadlines--heaven forbid I catch the flu or something.) I have anxiety issues on a GOOD DAY, for no reason sometimes. The sky can be blue, the birds singing, and everything going fine, and my body will all of a sudden still start worring (about nothing in particular...just a "doom" feeling). That's why I'm on and off the A/D's all the time. Generalized anxiety disorder- or some garble like that - my Dr. swears.

So this crap is REALLY making me have to fight.

Anyway, I do, for whatever reason, still consider her a friend, but the conversation last night, the more I thought about it, really did become very clear that she is not helping our marriage in any way, and that yes, they do enable every one of his bad behaviors. Thus, why I am worried about her advice, I don't know except that it goes back to her knowing him well and my fear of loss.

Irrelevant. I have decided he IS going to get a letter. I'm just still working out all the definitions. Did my latest draft TOTALLY STINK?

I know there was a provision for some phone contact, but I'm not sure how that enables, except to allow him to maybe fill the EN of knowing I'm okay (and vice versa). I added it and removed all the specifics of the finances and D's schooling, as I think we will have to contact on that from time to time anyway. There may be other things that come up, too. S is graduating this May, and I am working now on all his college stuff. No idea how to finance it, so will most likely need to correspond with H on these issues as well.

I didn't put any provision for physically seeing each other, until he makes his decision. This eliminates not only just "seeing me" but hugs, kisses, playing games, laundry priviledges, etc. He can lean on me for nothing there.

I did change the wording because I don't want him to feel like I'm trapping him in a marriage and forcing all these rules down his throat (Dobson advice, my words...often WS feel trapped, and you need to open the cage door and give them their freedom. This does NOT mean let them walk on you. You have to define the things you won't tolerate if they wish to remain married, but tell them that you're freeing them to make their own decision and regardless of what they decide, you will go on with your life.

(This becomes "fake it til I feel it" because I don't WANT to lose him, but I can't let him know I'm so concerned about it.)

So?? Am I wacked??

well, you don't see it, but you are pushing away. you have every right to want things on your terms. but you won't reach your ultimate goal the direction you are heading. .....

well, you can't build trust and relationships with no contact ....

well, if you would focus a little more on your marriage and a little less on his affair, the affair could very well not be a factor

No! No! No! This isn't in my letter to him, and it's not that I want to believe it. I didn't post my responses to her comments because they were essentially what you guys (and the books) have been saying all along. There is NO rebuilding or reconciling that can be done with this marriage as long as, at a minimum, he still has OW in his life, and basically as long as he's letting alcohol control him.

We finally ended our conversation on a rather snippy note. I do hate to do that with someone who has been a friend of mine for years. The reason I posted to all of you was because, when this gets pounded and pounded into my eyes and brain by someone who knows WH so well, I start to lose my focus. That's what was happening.

Please don't go away! I do want to make changes. I am planning on getting him the letter (how-not sure.. May have to be snail mail now).
I need you guys for focus and for support.

Hey there, didn't mean to imply I thought those left-field comments of your friends were yours. She may KNOW your H, but you know what you are willing to live with. And Plan B isn't about getting them back...Plan B is for you...not getting sucked into the Black Hole...saving yourself so that when he stops sucking you will be OK and have the energy to reconcile.

I would recommend NO contact...pick a go-between...someone who supports your decisions that you and H can talk through. Every time you have contact it will just be an opportunity to be sucked into the maelstrom.

The letter was OK...too many LBs though...

Leave out all the "buts". I love you *but you*. Write all about your thoughts and feelings and what is happening with you. Leave out this entire part...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> to be sure, but I haven’t violated your trust repeatedly for the last several months. I’m no longer special to you—I’m just one of the women in your life. I still love you dearly, but I’d rather face the future without you than as one of your harem. I’m not sure how something so wonderful became so dirty and distorted, but that is between you and the Lord. We both have to answer to him in our own way, and I have asked for forgiveness for my past indiscretions and have a clear conscience now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very nasty...a Plan B letter is a love letter. And in my Plan B letter I gave pretty specific instructions about what it would take to reconcile. N/C meant writing a last letter to OW stating no more contact from him and then NO MORE CONTACT, marriage counseling, and accountability of time and money (honesty was an issue in our M).

The problem we have with the go-between is that we really do (and this sounds pathetic!) have two mutual friends anymore--this woman and her husband. I don't want them involved as the go-between (for obvious reasons).

We used to have a couple other mutual friends, or I could have relied on his family as well, but once he began his A and they expressed their disapproval, he has written them out of his life. He won't call them, won't see them, nothing.

This is why I feel like there may have to be some contact. However, it can be kept very to the point and I'm doing much better at not letting him get off track and start telling me about OW.

I know in my mind that no contact would be best, but right now, I see either the slightly-watered-down version, or no letter at all, and I don't think that is a good idea.

I will relook at my last draft and make some of the wording changes you suggested. I want him to somehow understand that I won't continue to tolerate the A, but don't want to do it in a totally unloving fashion.

Thanks for hanging with me. Hopefully the others will read my pleading new thread and will come back, too.

LL

last draft very bad...
very very bad...go back to the other one..on which Melody tells you take this paragraph out...and other changes...that's the one...

ark....

Thank you for not deserting me. This is not easy for me...at all.

H called today, still cold (which does make things easier to do for me) but we talked, superficial stuff basically. He knows I worked late last Friday and will be doing so for the next few weeks--said "so, you're already back to your old habits, huh?"

I maintained calm and just said, "You already told mutual friend that you understood I had busy periods where I would have to work more, and said that was okay. Up until this point, I have cut my hours way back (he can't dispute this), and my last audit begins on 3/8, so shortly after that, I plan on cutting them back down again."
(End of subject)

He apparently has some seminar going on at the Sheraton on Wednesday, and wanted to stop by the house afterwards. Work is a good excuse--told him I wasn't even sure I'd be around when he was done.

Mutual friend (or, I'm thinking at this point, his friend but a thorn in my side until and if this all ends), has already put a bug in his ear that a bomb is about to drop. (Thanks a lot..) So I tried nicely to say that yes, I am struggling dealing with everything, and that I am working on writing down where I'm at with things on paper.

So, I'll go back to the draft MelodyLane reviewed, see if I need to do anything to it, and then the question: What is the best way to present the letter to him?

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL,

You are wasting your time if you intend on staying in contact. All contact has to end. The point of the letter is to tie up all housekeeping issues to prevent contact. You can't do this halfway or you are doomed, he will never take you seriously.

He is an alcoholic and if you give him an inch, he will WORK YOU OVER and take a mile. You must be steadfast in your resolve, LL. That is why NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. In AA we have a saying, "half measures availed us nothing." It is the same here. Half measures will get you NOTHING but a complete and total loss of credibility.

Please go back to the original letter. It was short, to the point and most of all, FIRM. You are not dealing with Mary had a little lamb, but with a professional bullsh** artist that can work you like play-doh. That is why you can't leave any ambiguity or uncertainity in your letter. The first one we did was just perfect.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not as strong as you'd like me to be...but I am trying hard.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are probably stronger than most of here, LL. Anyone that has put up with this insanity for years, as you have, is strong! Hang in there!

Lordslady...I can't and wouldn't dump ya...every time I go to the gym I think of the insane things your husband says....and I run atleast a half a mile more....

First all we have been amiss in not teaching you fog-babble in reverse...because you my friend have an fluent fogese speaker supreme on your hands...things you missed the opportunity to babble back to...

he says...
I see how you are."
you say...
hmmmm I see ....

he says...
so, you're already back to your old habits, huh?"
you say..
Yes I just picked up a new nuns habit today.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

so with much apology I offer the number one post on babbling back to insane verbage..

orchids fog-babble back lesson's 101

ark

ML,

You are probably stronger than most of here, LL. Anyone that has put up with this insanity for years, as you have, is strong! Hang in there!

Strong, no. Insane, yes! (And frankly, any credit due for my contining to persevere through some of the stuff in my life goes to God, because I've had MANY days when I woke up and said to myself "I just can't do this anymore.")

Ark,

Lordslady...I can't and wouldn't dump ya...every time I go to the gym I think of the insane things your husband says....and I run atleast a half a mile more....

So see, my insanity is actually doing something good for someone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'll check out your link on the fog-babble--should be interesting--but can already say you are by far quicker witted than I am. While I smart, I am also slow to catch on to stuff sometimes (the fog-babbler in my family is also the quick-witted one) so tend to be the butt of jokes.

For all of you,

As for the contact, I really do have a stumbling block there, as far as phone contact is concerned. If he had a computer, I could just email to-the-point instructions, but he doesn't, nor does he have text messaging on his cell. Like I said, no mutual friends because he's cut 'em all out of his life over the last couple months. He has his coworkers (they condone his behavior and I've never liked most of them), and I have mine (none of whom he really even knows).

And based on what I see happening with the friends (???) last night, they are the last people on earth I want as my go-between. I know you really do want no contact and I understand that, but I'm not sure there is a way around some phone calls where certain finances, her schooling, and son's college (forgot about that until this weekend when I had to send all the papers in for housing and stuff) are concerned.

It doesn't mean I have to see him. It doesn't mean I have to let him engage me in anything off-topic (unless it's "I've broken off my affair"--and then I still need LOTS of proof).

He did call again just a few minutes ago to ask how long I was working. Then he asked when the papers were coming (meaning D papers). Could have used those darned fog-babble instructions. But being honest and nice, I told him that I was not planning on filing for divorce (like I did as a surprise on him 12 years ago when he was in a similar situation and I had lost all patience). But I did say I have every right to not tolerate my husband having an affair--he agreed. And I told him that if it goes on forever, I won't wait around.

Anyway...so how do I get the letter to him. Everyone seems to avoid that question.