Well, I read "Surviving an Affair" cover to cover. I just finished it, but it could be too late. My wife and I got into a discussion last night about her "friend" after my last discussion with my counselor. I told him the things she was saying to me about this friend. She said that he was there when she needed a friend. I said that the this relationship with this friend did not seem appropriate to me based on what she told me earlier. I reminded her that a year and a half ago, if I had a friend like that then she would have been very upset with me and would have wanted to know all about it. When asked more about the details of this friendship, she would clam up and just said that I should take whatever thoughts I had in my mind and triple them. I said that if there was nothing going on that was inappropriate then why wouldn't she tell me anything. I asked why shouldn't I be allowed to call this friend and tell him I was concerned about his relationship with my wife. She said that all that would do is cause his family pain and ruin her relationship with him. She said that she thinks I am having her followed and that our relationship is over and that what is wrong with our ralationship is my fault. She said she is calling a divorce lawyer today and is moving out. I told her I love her and that whatever has been going on can be worked thru, and that she is free to come and go as she pleases. I was not yelling or calling her names, just simply having a discussion. She slept on the sofa again and before I left this morning, I told her I loved her and that we can work thru this. She just got pissed off and said it's over. THIS IS RIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK! What did I do wrong??? We can even talk about this thing. In her mind, it is either move ahead and forget about it (while she holds me at arms length in our marriage), or get a divorce. WHAT NEXT? Do I put my savings in my new bank account and start protecting my interests and continue to Plan A, or move to Plan B??

This is the most difficult time I have ever had in my life. Was the discussion about the OM a LB?? I was not yelling just simply asking direct questions calmly - the answers were I don't trust you, I want a divorce and I'm leaving. Other than my wife, I am the only one who really knows. Do I contact the OM or his wife?

I just got the phone with my wife. She said that when I get home tonight she will be gone - for good and that last night I ruined everything. She says that I am having dillusions (whatever that means). She said don't call her, dont't come looking for her - goodbye - for good! I just want my marriage and wife back. What now??

apache03,
I just read and I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry for the pain you are going through.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I put my savings in my new bank account and start protecting my interests and continue to Plan A, or move to Plan B??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether you continue Plan A or not, I think it is important to take care of your savings until you know what is going on.

I don't know details about your situation but from what I have read, your wife is full blasted in the fog!
She's going to be mad about everything, so I don't think you wil be able to change much at the moment.

I don't know what happened "last night" but I don't believe anyone can ruin something just in "one evening". So don't be so hard on yourself.

Someone that is having an affair will look for anything even so little to justify their behaviour and once their head is clear again, they feel like a complete NUT!

There are a few great threads concerning Fog babble and also about "Babbling back". You might want to read some of those.

I'm sorry that I can't give you any real helpfull advice, I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone and we all know what you are going through.


NO MATTER WHAT, TAKE VERY GOOD CARE OF YOURSELF!!!

bb

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by apache03:
<strong> I just got the phone with my wife. She said that when I get home tonight she will be gone - for good and that last night I ruined everything. She says that I am having dillusions (whatever that means). She said don't call her, dont't come looking for her - goodbye - for good! I just want my marriage and wife back. What now?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Apache, do you think she is really having an affair? You obviously hit a soft spot here and she wants you to shut up about it. I am not sure why. If it is because she is, in fact, having an affair, you can't shut up about it. If she is not, then she is probably offended that you accused her. Altho I find it odd that she would be so offended that she moves.

I wonder if this is a ploy to get you to shut up?

Apache,

First off, I am mad because I just spent 10 minutes typing and then lost it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Now, let me try again. Apache03, we are military men. As such, let's approach this from a military mindset.

First off, before any mission, we want intel. What intel do you have? Well, you outlined it above. What does that intel add upto? Well, you never have 100% intel, but in anyone's mind, your intel adds up to an affair.

So, what do you do now? Well, first off, you need to read..study. Study this website and all of the Harley books. Study other affair books. Get smart quick.

Second, YOU NEED MORE INTEL!! When you confront someone in an affair, if you dont have proof, they WILL lie...and then turn it back on you! Get proof. Hire a PI. Get some close friends at the barracks to go on intel missions. Document every action and concersation with her. See a lawyer and get your legal act together.

Do you have kids? If you do, DO NOT LET HER TAKE THEM WITH HER!! Approach this whole thing like a military mission. Write up an OPORD (Operations Order, for you civilians out there). I did. Issue FRAGOS when needed. Take charge of this mess.

You and I are lucky. The military gave us some great skills to endure hardships and still accomplish the mission. USE THEM! Trust the experts. Dont always believe what your eyes and ears are telling you. Read up on infidelity. Become an expert. Learn how to fight this war.

Ignore her accusations. It is all fogese. She hasnt a clue what she is doing. But in that fogese, you need to find the truth. I can help you with that. The truth about how you failed to be the husband you should have been. the truth about what she is doing. And the truth about what it is going to take.

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER POOR ACTIONS IN HAVING AN AFFAIR, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID AS A HUSBAND!! Learn that. It is the truth. But, you do need to see where you failed her, and work on improving yourself. That way, if she comes around, or if you get remarried, you will not make the same mistakes again.

is the Om in the military? If so, get the intel and be ready to send it to the IG. His career will be over, and he might get some jail time (I know, I am a former IG). Do not accuse him or your wife until you get irrefutable proof. Then blow the fog wife open. Tell his family. Now, what will that do at first? It will drive your wife right out the front door and into his arms. but right now, you cant stop that anyway. It is like forest fires. Sometimes, firefighters have to light a fire, to stop a fire. So, be prepared for her to move out.

But have your legal act together. While you are trying to save your marriage, you dont have to be "raped" financially or legally. Protecting yourself is NOT an LB.

Read up on the concepts of Plan A, Plan B, and LBs. These are your Field manuals, which you will use to develop your OPORD. Understand the enemy. The enemy is the affair, NOT your wife! 95% of all affairs end. So, the odds are in your favor that it will be over. But, it will take awhile. And that length has something to do on what you do, and how you react.

You need to be ready. So, when she does something or says something, you wont be reacting. You will have been prepared for it. And that will frustrate her even more.

Right now, that affair has given her "freedom," or so she thinks. But, if you get your act together, she will soon find out that the opposite is true. And she will get angry. But thru that anger, she will see you in Plan A...still trying to save the marriage, still loving her. And then she will get madder. And then she will see you in Plan B, and read your Plan B letter (PBL) and see a man that is still there. But now, the OM has to meet all her needs, which he cant (thats why only 5% of those relationships succeed).

And then, when she hits bottom, she will be ready.

Read my threads. Learn what she will do and say. Learn what not to do thru my mistakes. Be ready. This could take as long as two years. Is she worth it? Is your marriage worth it?

One thing, sign NOTHING (separation, divorce paperwork, etc) unless you want a divorce. It is like a nuke. Once you launch, it is a little too late. Make her do ALL of the hardwork. But protect yourself.

Let me know how we can help. Get with the plan. You have a long mission. Be prepared to get out of the military, because I can assure you another deployment will be all it takes for her.

In His arms.

Boy, you've spoiled her plans. She can't have both of you. She feels too guilty being in a R with both of you, and you've made it pretty clear you know what is going on and are ready to blow this open. So she's going to leave.

She has this fantasy that life will be better with the OM. Somehow or another they have worked out a plan that they are going to live happily ever after. Yeah, right, by starting their lives duping the people they love...

I would suggest as part of your intelligence gathering that you call the OM's W and tell her what you know and compare notes...she may have some facts and figures for you. Like that trip to Las Vegas????????

What have you done to stop the LB's and to fulfill her needs? I heard in one of your post a reference to yourself as "father figure" and my warning bells went off. Sounds like me and my "mothering" I used to do (and still get stuck there sometimes). Parenting our S is a HUGE LB, it's assuming we know what is best in their life. DJ big time. What other LBs are you guilty of? How have you been able to work those out?

She absolutly knows that I know, and another conversation with her this morning tells me she is on the brink of telling me what has been going on - I don't want some big admission, just an aknowledgement and whatever is going on stopped - NOW!

I am going to see my priest this afternoon - I told her that as well and she acted as if she wanted to go - but then said it was a bad time.

I think the OM is telling her she can be so much more and that her life is seriously lacking. While that may be true in some areas (like the rest of us) her life wasn't that bad before. I've always known she wanted to change careers - I certainly have supported her in that.

I 'm not sure I've any recent LBs (unless asking her questions about an affair are LBs). I've made many meals for her - I never used to do that, we have gone out to movies, dinner, concerts, the ballet and have a trip planned to the House of Blues for a concert (and a weekend at the beach). I hug her in the morning, tell her how much I love her, and simply always out my best foot forward - like we were dating all over again. I'm just not going to be a doormat!

She says she has always held me to a higher standard than anyone else and has always put me on a pedestal - which I can never fall off of - and now I have. Someone else was there to tell her how great she is and that I didn't really care anyway. I have always tried to be what she expected me to be - to a fault. I am now dealing with that (with my counselor) as well - you know - being real, being human. She says I seem to be able to do alll sorts of things she cannot do - that makes me a father figure in her eyes - her protector (like a father).

Oh ugh, it sounds like she needs a great deal of admiration...and may have found someone more her 'speed', maybe a real scumbucket because that's what she thinks of herself.

Is it possible to be TOO good a guy? I don't think so.

I'm sorry you have to be here.

What does she think about MC or visiting this site?

Apache,

What you just wrote tells me that you are in a very good position. She knows who you are, and who you are for her. The good, bad and the ugly. She is a prime candidate for the Harley principles. Right now, get into and stay in Plan A. Plan A is about showing the WS who you are again and what is possible. To get them hooked on you again. You uave done a great job with that with things like the movies, making dinner, hugs, etc. The second part of Plan A is to end the affair. So, exposing it is of paramount issue here.

But, I would wait a day or so. Get your act together. Dont tell her. Dont let her know that you are getting this intel. Just do it, be quiet about it. And then once you have irrefutable proof, you can proceed.

How? Well, it sounds to me like she wants to tell you. So, if she will, it is always better that she tells you, rather than have it forced out of her. So, get your intel together...and also get your response together on what you will say once she admits the affair.

Read, read, read my man. Become an expert on Plan A. Live it. If she eventually moves out, then you can go to Plan B. And in Plan B, your wife sounds like she will be perfect for Plan B. That she will quickly realize the mistake she has made.

But, right now it is Plan A. Get your intel together before she makes a move...quietly!! Then either let her expose it, or you expose it. Then respond to her that... </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You love her</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want this marriage</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You believe with help that it will work out</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That none of this can happen until she ends contact with OM...forever</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And then see what she does.

She will probably try to justify a continued friendship with him. Blah, blah, blah. You jsut stick with the message above.

Then once Plan A has settled in, if she still hasnt gone NC with OM and you all are seeing counselors, then Plan B will rock her world.

Oh, see if she will come to MB, or talk to the Harleys. See if she will fill out the Emotional Needs questionaire on here. You fill it out also.

In His arms.

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Well, no matter what she still uses my/our/her relationship with my parenst as a BIG issue. My parents have never really treated her well, or at least as well as she should have been treated - her parents treat me great - my wife never gets that. She has recently come across some of my email traffic to my parents about her/me/us and she does not like what she sees. The email is not about the affair - I'm not telling them anything about that - she would just feel more "judged" by them. The email is just about how we/me/she has been treated and what I feel about it and how I expect her/us/me to be treated. I told her she could look at my email any time - nothing to hide - and today she did. I have always given her my passwords, etc. I ask her to let me know if I get email when I'm away from home. She has seen these and THEY are just another issue with US. My counselor said - if your parents died today, would all of your marriage troubles be over?? The answer is no. Some would be , but many would not be.

Okay now Apache. You have your FIRST clue on what you can do to improve things in your relationship. Ready?

Your parents are no longer your family. They are extended family. Your wife is your family. Your discussion of your problems with your wife with your parents feels almost like betrayal to her.

Are you a Christian? God says that a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife. Cleave means to become one flesh. Your problems belong in your marriage, being worked out in your marriage.

Maybe if your parents had a better relationship with her, then your conversations would be appropriate. But they are not under the current circumstances. Your talking behind her back, seeking assistance from them when you should be seeking it from her, likely is making her feel undermined.

Notice, the Bible doesnt say that a woman left her mother and father and cleaved to her husband. Why do you think that is? It is because the nature of men, and of parents. Men must take charge of their families. God intended them to be spiritual leaders of their household. We are made that way. Women are not. When we allow, even if it is just a perception, someone else to take over that leadership, then our wives feel undermined. They dont trust us. Why would they follow a leader that cant lead? Look Apache, I am guilty of this. One of the major problems that came out in all of this on my side was the influence of my parents in my marriage. Little subtle things. No one was trying to hurt anyone. My parents were just trying to help. But to my wife, she was being undermined. She was cleaved to me...but I wasnt leading.

Do you understand what I am talking about? I know you need to talk to people you can trust. And your parents are there for you. But remember, they are biased. You are their son...they will always side with you over her.

Seek counsel from thos that can be as objective as possible. Keep your parents out of your marriage.

When my sons and my daughter marry, I will endeavor to do so. If for example, my daughter comes to me and asks what she should do about something in her marriage, do you know what my first answer will be? "Have you talked to your husband about this? If not, go home and talk to him. If you want, your mother and I are both open to sit down with the TWO OF YOU to give you any advice we might have. But in the end, it is up to the two of you."

So, Apache. You have a good start. Tell your wife, or write an email and let her know what you have discovered. Each time you find something new about yourself, things that you must improve on, tell her. Not "I am going to do better...now please dont leave me." But instead "Honey, I never really understood how the influence of my parents hurt you and undermined our marriage. I am sorry. I have learned so much through this process." Dont promise to do better. That is a logical conclusion from your apology. And the promise will likely fall on her as manipulation.

See? This is just one engagement in a larger battle in the BIG WAR for your marriage. Use it. Learn from it. Then move onto the next thing.

Hope this helped.

In His arms.

Mortarman - just emailed you looking for some assistance based on your experience. Thanks for all the support and info you've already given me.

Apache,
Just checking on you today to see what happened and how you are doing. Ladysing

Apache

Quick question... is OM military? Thats opens a whole new can-o-worms (for him) if he is. Are you aware of this?

I'd be more than happy to help out, and I'm sure Mortarman is well aware of these things too.

M.

It has been a little while since I have posted and over the past couple of weeks things have seemed better - until last night & this morning.

First to answer a few questions:

- the OM is not in the military (but used to be)
- I am not discussing my marrital issues with my parents,but I am discussing with them how they treat my wife (and my wife constantly wants updates on those discussions)
- I am continuing in Plan A and feel I have done a good job
- We don't have kids
- I am still gathering Intel and know that the guy I suspect is leaving her voice mail messages on her cell and in the last one he said he hadn't heard from her in a week, was sure there was a good reason (he didn't know what the reason could be, but knew it must be a good one) and that he just wanted to hear her voice and see how things were going ( That statement made me uncomfortable because I can not imagine saying to another man's wife that I just wanted to hear her voice). I think she has tried to stop talking to him and that has created some issues. I know she sent him an email (because one of his voice mail messages referred to it), but not from the computer at our house.
- She still says she feels smothered and that she is still under a microscope.
- She is asking me what I have discussed with the priest and counselors, and I tell her. She has not gotten upset when I let her know I told them I think my wife is having an affair.
- Sometimes she tells me that I have lost her and is still upset about me telling her I will not give her a divorce, will not move out, and that she can come and go as she pleases.
- Other times she tells me she loves me and talks about plans to do home improvements, trips, etc.
- We had a great trip to the beach & concert (had lots of fun)

Last night we went to see a movie (she invited one of her friends and did not tell me until I got home - just before we were to leave) and I was not angry at her for doing it. I just said "Great, I'm sure she'll be fun". The movie was good and then after we got home she still mentioned feeling like she was under a microscope because she thought I would be angry about her friend going.
This morning, after I made us both a delicious pancake breakfast, she said the same thing and went off again about not feeling free. She said I don't understand that I have lost her, and that she feels trapped. My total honesty over the past weeks is upsetting her (although she reveals very little to me). She then mentioned that our relationship problems were because of me, and wondered if I had ever thought of living life without her. I told her the truth and said "yes" but I'd rather live my life with her. I told her about some of the things I am reading and that I know I have ownership of some of the issues in our marriage. I told her the books have helped me understand our relationship better. She wants to know why I am reading books that are only about affairs. I explained that they are not only about affairs, but about marriage relationships and making them better. I explained that the books say that our marriage issues are separate from affairs. She was not happy to hear that. She still tries to avoid any "affair talk" and says I'm wrong - but I don't think so - the little note she wrote (which I found) explaining how she is "passionately involved with a man who is not available for a serious relationship because he is bound to someone else" pretty much tells me I'm right. Even though she says that was just her "private thought" and that she is only having trouble dealing with her feelings for this man.

I guess this is just the first "bad day" in a week or so and I am looking for some support.

Apache,

It seems as though you are doing everything very well. You admit that you have played a part in the problems of the marriage, you are studying up to figure out how to resolve them, you are upfront about your suspcions she is having an affair, and you are doing a very good Plan A.

And it is clearly driving your wife NUTS! This is good. All of the legs she is standing on to justify her affair are being removed one by one and that only leaves one explanation for her actions: because she has chosen to have an affair with another man to meet her needs rather than work on her marriage with her husband. She tries to blame you, but her finger-pointing is being lovingly redirected back at herself. After all, you are now obviously trying to meet her needs and that ticks her off! Why now, after all this time? Why now, when she neatly had you pegged as the bad guy?

She hasn't moved out. Perhaps it is because the man who is "unavailable" to her isn't willing to leave his family. Perhaps it is because your Plan A is working. I think it is probably both at this point. But the telling this is that she is still there. She still finds something valuable in being your wife, or she would be gone no matter what her "unavailable" partner's status was.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Show her you are changing. Tell her you love her despite your suspicions and that whatever the problems, you think your marriage is worth saving. Plan A. Plan A. Plan A.

You are doing well. Hope this helps.

~ Snow

Oh yeah: More answers to questions -

- I cannot simply get out of the military because I have 16 years in service and only 4 more to go until retirement; to leave now would be (future)financial and career suicide.

- She has always thought of me as someone who is extremely confident and who can do anything. She does not see herself that way and nver has. When I am honest with her and tell her that inside I have alwasys had lots of anxiety and that my confidence is always challenged - she says that makes her angry because I have been lying to her all these years.
- When I tell her I have issues with my own "body image" (she has her own) - she gets angry as well - says I've been lying to her and she just doesn't know who I am anymore.
- Through my honesty, she sees me differently than ever before. As a man who is not much different a human being than her - and she gets angry with me. I have always thought it was my role to be the strong one - and have been. I am not playing that role anymore. She now sees me as a normal person who makes mistakes, has self doubt, struggles with motivation and who is not a perfectionist.
- I a feel emotional while watching a movie, well then she sees it
- Now she's angry with me for being always honest - what a hoot! I can't win either way, but I feel better about myself now.

Your honesty in being who you are is a good thing, even though your wife might feel like you're turning the tables on her after letting her believe you were the "rock" for all those years.

She'll come around. I truly do believe that.

~ Snow

Hang in there. You are doing well. Stick with the MB plan. We are here for you, like you were there for us.

I really think your marriage sounds very hopeful. Stay in the military, don't let this bump in the road upset you.

Have you checked out the 180's?

I guess my wife has had alot on her mind lately. This afternoon when she cam home from a short shopping trip - she tells me she is so overwhelmed and cannot make sense of anything - she cannot see her life in the future - is totally unhappy now - wants to be free - wants me to just leave - she wants to start over with someone new who doesn't know her past - someone she can be happy with whose family loves her (she's not gotten that from my family) - says I should just go back to my family - that I should start a relationship with someone new - she cannot let down her barriers to trust me not to hurt her again - that she thinks our relationship could get better for a while, but will go back to being the same as it was before - that she wants to be able to have sex with passion and that we won't be able to do that (because of trying to have a baby and sex just becoming only about having a baby).
She said we should just sell the house and she will give me whatever I want - just as long as we end. She said she can't get over the resentment and anger she feels towards me over things in the past. I asked her if she would at least go to the counslor with me and say the same things - see where he thinks we are at this point. She said no, she would not go.
Could I have still have it all wrong?? I think I am doing the right things, but she will not let down the barriers and trust me - will not let me in.
I have to go out of town for a few days - leaving tomorrow. Who knows what she will say when I return. I'm just going to stay the course - I can't believe she could just give up on us so easily because of a really rough spot.