Hello all,

Things are rough for me right now so bear with me. Last Thursday my BS told me that she wanted a divorce. For those who don't know, I disclosed the truth on the 4th of Jan about an A that happened three years ago and one that I had from Sept - Nov of this year. Things deteriorated and ended up with domestic violence charges being filed (against her) and her ex obtained a temporary custody order for my DSD.
I recanted my statement that caused her to be charged in the 1st place in an effort to minimize the reprecussions. I've testified in her custody case on her behalf. I've made it clear that divorce is something I do not want. Thats enough backstory for those joining us late now to the current issue.
Yesterday my accountant called and told me she was finished doing our taxes and let me know I could pick up our return today to sign and file it. So I called my MIL and asked her to let my BS know about this and to ask where she would be this evening so I could get her to sign the fprms so they can be filed. Since my BS told me she wanted a divorce on thursday I had not spoken with her. Its to painful. When her mother handed her the phone I hung up. Yeah an A-hole thing to do but I plan on apologizing and explaining my actions to my BS this evening.
Anyways, we ended up talking last night (BS and I) and our discussion turned from the taxes to our marriage and I did a pretty good job in being nonconfrontational and maintaining my accountability. Over the course of the discussion on our marriage, I feel that maybe she has begun to look at the consequences of what divorce will mean. She told me her mother had told her she was getting everything in her life that she deserved right now. She asked me if I felt that she was getting what she deserved. I responded that no one person could judge another person and say whether or not they were getting what they deserved. I told her only you can tell yourself that after looking at your life and being honest about what you don't like and asking yourself, "Did anything I do bring this about?" I told her that if you did something to bring something about or played a role in something, then yes it is something you deserve, as it is the results of your own actions much like her wanting to divorce me for having an A. Her wanting to divorce me is a result of my actions, so I really cannot complain and say that I do not deserve this. I then pointed out that things like us divorcing were things that our children did not deserve yet they happen. I told her it was her job to look at her life honestly and make those determinations by herself.
Then she asked me the question that I need advice on. She told me that when I came out tonight she wanted to talk to me. She asked me a specific question and I want advice on how to answer it.
Thru MB I've come to look at my M with a different set of eyes. The same new eyes look at our problems differently as well. My BS asked me to explain to her why I had an affair. I do not know if she wants to hear my explanation as I see it. As I've learned here and in IC, my A was the result of many things that were being done wrong in the M on both sides of the fence. I acknowledge and hold myself accountable for the concious decision to have an A and for my part in the pre-A conditions in our marriage. I believe that had we maintained the romantic love between us an A never would have been possible. Things that led to the A (speaking only for myself), poor communication, unresolved issues from childhood, no policy of joint agreement in our marrital decision process, failing to meet each other ENs.. common mistakes.. etc.
I feel that if I approach her in this manner she may not be receptive to it because it implies that she has accountability in it as well and that it implies things can be fixed. I do not know how to tell her these things in a constructive manner. I feel that her asking me this, especially since it looks like she's given thought to what divorce will mean(and she finds it unacceptable); that this is an oppurtunity to open the door to recovery for us and I do not want to fug it up.

-2soon

Well I am a BS. If you told me what you said here, I would kick you to the curb.

And her mother, what is wrong with her? Saying her daughter got what she deserved?

My advice is to write your wife a letter. But you'd better come up with a better answer than she contributed to the affair. That was your poor choice.

Later you can get your wife on board with fixing the things that were wrong.

wise2soon

how about giving her the book "His Needs, Her Needs" as an answer. (Highlight your most important needs)
Maybe she will be able to understand what affairs are actually about and why they happen.

I as an BS was able to see my husbands affair with different eyes once I had read this book. I then realized that affairs are about "Unfullfilled needs" and not because the OP is better than us.


Reading this book helped us both to find the reasons "Why" my husband had an affair. Well he had to do a lot of deep soul searching within himself also but altogether , this book did make many things very clear.

take care
bb

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

Okay here is a much better approach.

One the decision to have an affair was mine and mine alone I am 100% responsible for that.

There were things that you could have done nothing about that were missing and hurting in me. Explain those childhood issues and how they impacted your behavior.

And there were some things in the marriage...never say that she did... that helped make you feel vunerable enough to make such a stupid selfish choice.

In other words if you are going to talk about the things that you think led to the affair then talk about her part last not first. Take responsibility for the affair 100% so that when you talk about conditions in the marriage you already removed any implication that you think the affair was her fault.

Then go to the butter up part.... but only if you really mean what I post below.

Let her know you never realized just what you had in her, the marriage and your family until faced with this reality. That had you known this NEVER would have happened. Had you been stronger and not messed up with childhood issues you would have chosen to work on your marriage rather than betray it. Let her know its only because you felt you didn't matter that allowed you to act the way you did.

Let her know the realization of just how much pain is involved in all of this convinces you never want to go through this again.

Finally if there was anyway to undo what I have done I would do so in a hearbeat.

Be humble but hold your chin up. Thank her for loving you and ask to not to stop now. Tell if she gives you the rest of her life to make it up to you she won't regert it.

PS first sappy speech was free but I charge 10 cents a line from here out! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Believer,

I wasn't planning on saying to her that she is just as responsible for the affair. As I've come to understand the MB concepts, it was the two of us not meeting one anothers ENs that led to the affair. I do not know how to explain it another way. Yes I understand it was me alone who made the horrible decision to betray my BS and have an A. I understand this and ackowledge this. But my point is how do I have a discussion discussing the why of it and yet avoid making her feel as if I am trying to share the blame of it.

The whole why of it as I see it , was not meeting each others ENs, poor communication, no PoJA at all in our M, etc... So believer, how do I discuss the why of it and not talk about things in which she may perceive I'm trying to share the blame?

-2soon

wise,

I would be very careful what you say right now and how you say it,I have been following your posts here and there and if I were in your W's shoes I would not feel comfortable around you.I especially had a hard time with the DV dispute but I won't go there.

You seem to waffle back and forth in your treatment of her so my opinion is that you make up your mind on what the heck you want and stop treating her poorly.

Asking the question WHY you had an affair is so intricate that I believe it should only be explored while in the care of a professional so he/she can guide you through those waters without sinking the ship.As my counselor says,there is constructive and deconstructive information and unless you know how to properly navigate that area you shouldn't really attempt to do this on your own.Hurt feelings may prevail and further damage any chance of reconciling.

O

Stunned,

Thanks for the advice, and you're right; that is a much better approach. The only problem is that if I say "If I ever would have thought this reality would happen I never would've done it." She will come at me with the fact she told me a long time ago that if I ever cheated on her she would leave me no matter what.

Please all, keep it coming.

-2soon

I then pointed out that things like us divorcing were things that our children did not deserve yet they happen.

aaaarrrrghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You said THAT???????
Are you daft my man?????????

DO YOU WANT A DIVORCE...
YOU
YOU
YOU..
I am not interested in what she wants right now...
I am not interested in you sitting down and working out the details...with insane comments like in regrards to children...as yet they happen.

They may "happen" in a sense..but you and she have processed NONE of this...
there is no reason for you to be seriously entertaining divorce at this stage...
no matter what she states..

"Wife, I am sorry to hear you want a divorce. YOu should know that I feel very strongly that I do not desire a divorce at this time and feel we should take some time on this...."

something must be seriously wrong with my coffee this morning...is it possilbe I have been victim to some type of terrorist attack and someone has replaced my caffeine with DECAF!!!????

I can't see what's so bad about your are "saying" to you wife...

help me out here beleiver and stunned dad..
(send caffeine)

I acknowledge and hold myself accountable for the concious decision to have an A and for my part in the pre-A conditions in our marriage.

is that not taking onus??

As I've learned here and in IC, my A was the result of many things that were being done wrong in the M on both sides of the fence.

drop the both sides of fence line..and speak only of my side...right....

poor communication, unresolved issues from childhood, no policy of joint agreement in our marrital decision process, failing to meet each other ENs.. common mistakes.. etc.

If you change all of these to "I" statements...and they are true...then I don't see what wrong with that...

wife... I chose not to turn to you for communication but chose to turn to someone else and that was wrong..

wife...I failed to make romance and intimacy with you a great priority....

wife...I chose not to tell you when I was feeling bad about things in our marriage...

guys isn't that the right way to do it..?
and itsn't that what he is saying he is going to do...?

If you explain the actions with "I" statements without turning it on her...isn't that a good thing...

are we still not living on venus this morning..or am I on the wrong planet....

ARK

Heck, this sounds harsh, but what's wrong with telling her:

"Because I was stupid and selfish."

You've gotten some excellent advice on other answers that could help clarify. But I think it's a good start.

I didn't write that to insult you, but I think everyone here would agree that the moment they go into an A, they're being stupid and selfish.

Doesn't mean that's who they are all the time.

Be very careful with what you tell her right now. My FWS said a lot of things to me after DDay that are still causing me pain. If you even hint that her actions are a cause, she'll wonder if she has to be perfect for the rest of your life in order to avoid you having more As. And probably think the marriage isn't worth it.

I very seldom communicate with WS's, the hurt is still too new to me. You have gone to court for her and you get points for that.

Listen to stunned dad, octobergirl, and ark. But I would write her a letter. I'm afraid if you talk to her, you will say things that will not help your marriage.

October,

I will ackowledge that me having her charged with DV was spiteful, petty, and downright mean. I admit I've been on a roller coater emotionally with her. I'm faced with losing all that I love and its my own fault. So I've jumped from hot to cold and been inconsistent.

-2soon

You have receivd some good advice .. I would definetly ... do the "I"

Ark,

The statement where I said the bit about a divorce happening and it being something the kids neither wanted nor deserved was during a discussion she and I were having in regards to consequences of our actions and what we deserve. Right before I said that I had told her that she didn't deserve for her parents to divorce and then drew in the paralell with out own children. (on review I can say I said that deliberatly to cause her pain)

I admit that I'm not perfect and I'm trying to do my best here guys. That is why I'm asking for help. I'm trying.

One of the things that I did do which I think was positive was to tell her to not worry about what I may or may not say in court for both the domestic violence charges and her daughters custody case. I asked her since I told her about the A if she'd found that I lied to her or misrepresented my intentions? She told me that no, as far as she's seen I've been completely honest. I told her to take that month and change of honesty and use it as a sounding board that I would continue to do what I said I would in her court cases. She actually thanked me and told me she would. 8-)

Ark, and others... I have to run out of the office for a bit and will be back in na hour or so. In the meantime I'm thinking of what I will say when I talk to her tonight. When I get back to the office I will give a preview of what I plan to say and what not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "If I ever would have thought this reality would happen I never would've done it." She will come at me with the fact she told me a long time ago that if I ever cheated on her she would leave me no matter what.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have children right? I bet as parents you have told your children absolutes. Like if you ever do drugs or get pregnant I will throw you out of the house.

What is your wife going to do if you daughter gets pregnant while doing drugs?

Ask her to think of what she would do under those circumstances.

Secondly her "comeback" is irrelevant. You are not trying to win a debate here just plant a seed. Even if she acts like she doesn't care what you say or has a comeback the seed has still been planted. She will have to know that you truly don't believe you did that you never thought it would happen.

Don't look for reasons to give up she is already doing that one of you has to be positive.

If you have to be the drama king then look her in the eye and say as long as I believe there is an ounce of love left in you I WILL NOT GIVE UP. I made the mistake of giving up on you once before in the affair and I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN. Then let her leave and stew on that thought.

And you may have to repeat that theme over and over again until she sees you mean and you are not wavering one bit.

Plant the seeds now...go looking for the fruits later.

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: KitG ]</small>

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: KitG ]</small>

Kit,

In response to your post, THANKS!

I needed a 2x4 upside the head and you gave it to me. I am excited and thrilled to have an idea of what the real issues of our M were. For so long, I wondered why we had the problems we did and never saw the forest for the trees. Now that I have stepped back and looked at things and seen what our problems really are, I am eager to move forward to fix them.

My BS does not need to hear everything I want to say. She only needs to hear what she's asked me for. She's asked me why I had the affair. Not what we did wrong in our M that lead to having the A. Not what I think she did wrong or could've done better. She does not want to hear me say anything that implies she had anything at all to do with me having the A nor does she need to. After all, it was ME who had the A. I've been so focused on our issues looking at them and discussing them as shared issues and need to stop doing that.

So I've decided to send a letter as was suggested earlier explaining the "why" of it. I will post a copy of the letter before I leave the office today and ask for comments.

Kit, Yes I did have two A's n 3 years. Yes I exposed her to the risk of contracting an STD. I know this. One of the 1st things she asked me to do and I complied with was to get a full STD workup and AIDS test. This I've done and given her the results. When I go back this coming month for the follow up AIDS test I will give her the results for that as well.

Kit, as far as my replies to her during our conversation being as cold and hard as steel, it has come out that she has more than likely had an A since we separated. This is from her family telling me, not me guessing things or having her watched. I am on a roller coaster emotionally every day. I know that I am not a great communicator and inadvertantly say things that hurt and upset her. Somethimes its because I'm lashing out in response to what she's said to me that I do not like, or sometimes its because I just worded something wrong. I plan on talking with her about this as well and letting her know that I am working on this.

-2soon

As well Kit,

Me wanting to share the idea of her having a part in the pre-A conditions is just a function of me not wanting to be 100% accountable for the A.


-2soon

Here's the rough draft of my letter to my BS explaining the "why" of the A

Danielle,

Last night you asked me to tell you why I had an affair. I am writing this letter in the hopes that it will give you the answers you seek. I’m writing this because I’m not a great communicator. You’ve said it yourself that I hurt your feelings and destroy you with things I say that I do not think through. What you’ve asked me to answer involves an unimaginable amount of pain I’ve caused you. I’m writing this so I do not speak in haste and say something that will hurt you.

I had the affair because I was being stupid, selfish, and quite ignorant. Danielle, I’ve been ignorant of my own personal issues that I’ve never dealt with for years. These issues played into our marital problems, causing some and making others worse. You know that I was molested as a child, you know that my father died when I was I little boy, you know that I lost a brother when I was still in high school. What you may not know is how all of these things affected the way I lived my life day to day. I never dealt with them and lived my life with those issues lying there unresolved. I’ve taken an honest look at these things and feel that they played a large part in my behavior patterns in my life till now. I do not know if you want me to elaborate on how I feel these issues have affected our marriage but I am willing to do so if you ask.

I was stupid because I should’ve known. Never did I truly realize what I had with you and our family until now. Had I ever known what having the affair would mean losing, I truly never would have done it in the 1st place. Had I not been immature and confused by unresolved childhood issues I would’ve been working with you to make our marriage stronger, not out behind your back betraying it.

I was selfish because I went somewhere else other than my own wife seeking fulfillment for my needs and wants in the marriage. This happened because I was not being an effective partner. I did not communicate to you what I needed and wanted from you. And when I did not get what I felt I needed and deserved from our marriage, I went looking for it elsewhere.

What I’m getting at Danielle is that there is no single reason for why I had the affair. From what I’ve come to learn, it is the result of a lot of things that added up to form an affair. The affair happened because I went looking for something I perceived I was not getting from our marriage. Some of what I felt was missing was due to my own issues that were unresolved. I was missing something and picked a damaging way to fix it. I should have come to you and instead I hurt you.

I don't know how I'll ever forgive myself. I want to do whatever I can to repair the hurt in you, and if that's to go away I will. But I realize my terrible, terrible mistake and I really don't want to lose you. I want to do whatever I need to make you feel secure again. I will never, ever again have an affair. I love you and I can't believe I went and hurt the very person who means the world to me. You didn't deserve this, and you must be so shocked and numb for the last 2 months. You trusted me, thought you knew me, and now you must be wondering who I am. I wish I had figured all this out 3 years ago, but I have now and I want to do whatever it takes to make things right.

Thank you for loving me and I want you to know that I do not want you to stop now. I am a work in progress right now. Some things you’ve seen change and some you’ve not had the chance to yet. I hope you continue to see the things in my life that I am changing. Personal change is possible, it just takes time, honesty, and courage. I have the rest of my life when it comes to time. I have found honesty and how much easier it makes life as opposed to dishonesty. My courage comes from wanting change so bad to avoid ever causing the pain that I have.

Thomas

First off beautifully written from the heart...hit send while I grab some tissues.

Secondly this really caught my eye:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">molested as a child </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a number of threads on this subject more importantly you need to understand how dramatically that incident impacted you.

I strongly suggest you get a copy of The Sexual Healing Journey. It deals with childhood abuse on a couples or victim and support group basis. Its written for you to understand but also of those around you to understand you as well.

Our story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=009539

As you can see dealing with the fallout of childhood abuse has become a major area of interest for me and I have read extensively on the topic.

The Sexual Healing Journey helped me understand some of my wife's behavior from a more compassionate viewpoint.

There are series of surveys and exercises that she can help you with that explore how deeply the abuse impacted your concepts of sexuality in a way different than most.