Iceprincesss pionted out to me again last night that my relationship with my H seems to be a coependant one. She's not the fist person to suggest that. Who knows something about this codependency thing? Any books or websites anyone can suggest? I'd like to learn more so that I don't fall into the same patterns again in any future relationships.

Also, one thing I heard Dr. Phil say on an episode just last week, was that he thought the label "codependent" was neither here nor there. Is codependncy an accepted problem by some, but not by others?

Jen

Hi Jen-

First I want to congratualte you on your very difficult decision to re-claim your life. I know that it wasn't easy but I swear to you that it WILL get calmer and more peaceful for you.

"Co-dependant no more" is the book I reccommend for you to read. It was written by Melody Beattie. It answers all the questions and gives you a list to compare yourself against.

My own peresonal experience with it was that i looked to other people to fulfill who I was emeotionally. My whole purpose in life was based in a reaction to how I thought other people perceived me. For instance, if X became anggry I felt it was my fault and that I failed...even if it had nothing to do with me.

My self esteem was based on how other's reacted to me. If I did something for someone and that brought them happiness, then I would do MORE for that person to feel good about me. The problem is that you become so attached to the reactions of the other party that you lose yourself.

I became frenzied prior to my depression because my X was working very long hours and he would come home and be downright mean and angry. His anger was out of stress and fatigue, but because I was so co-dependant, I thought it was because I was bad. I kept trying to make him happy and the more I tried the more rejected I was. Eventually, I became exhausted because of my failed efforts. It led to me truly believing that X didn't need me or want me anymore. Once I was convinced of that, I had no purpose or identity. I was empty and I crashed because all of the reason that I was living for was him. The hardest thing to understand in nall of this is how manipulative co-dependancy is.

Basically, it was a very sick relationship. I was living to serve and punishing because I wasn't being received the way that I thought I should be. What the co-dependant does is to give completely but it isn't unconditional. That's the rub. The giving and caretaking is just another way to fill the emptiness and pain that the particular individual is running from. in the process, it creates a chaotic dependancy on others.


I started attending CODA (Co dependancy anonomouos) meetings asd part of my healing.

Jen,

I think the best personal definition of co-dependency is manifest when we assume responsibility for someone else's self-inflicted pain.

Yes...there are many opinions on this. Lots of people jump onto the co-dependency wagon or are quick to label others as such. The counsellor I saw first said ANY spouse who wouldn't walk away without a backward glance (actually, she said without extreme anger) from a cheating spouse was automatically co-dependent.

Careful of the label, as with all other labels...

The current counsellor I see is aligned with Dr. Harley's views...she says all good relationships have some aspect of co-dependency to them...check out Dr. Harley's opinion here on this web-site...it's definitely worth a read. (I suspect his opinion is more in line with what Dr. Phil was referring to as well.)

If you do feel that you are co-dependent (the response from G-w-K does an excellent job of explaining an unhealthy co-dependency) then the book she describes is certainly the "bible"...Beattie does a good job of walking people through the steps of change.

However, if you don't feel you are co-dependent, or the description doesn't really ring true, or it has more to do with how you are feeling vis-a-vis your current relationship and is not typical of any others in your life, I'd suggest the book How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together by Susan Page.

Jen...I know a tiny bit about your story and think that perhaps this book may seem inappropriate to you at this point in time...but the reason I still suggest it is because it deals with a different view of the "co-dependent"-type behaviour -- and talks about the issue not as a label but as a life strategy. Life is all about perception...so if you are unhappy, take control...YOU are the only one who can change your reality...invest in yourself and your perceptions of your life, change what you can about YOU, and accept others for who they are...let everything else go.

I cannot say how much this book has affected me...describes so much of the conflict between my H and me...the endless battles for changes...and now the changes are happening because I changed the dance between us...I let go of him, gave him acceptance and worked on me. I changed my perceptions (as part of Plan A, long before I'd even heard of this book).

I can heartily recommend this book for anyone not looking for a label, seeking merely to improve their life and their happiness, people willing to take the brave step of letting go of expectations of others and taking expectations fully into oneself...

The wisest posters on this board repeat this advice ad nauseum (often to closed ears I must say) but the book uses a whole range of exercises and tools to help you figure out yourself, your boundaries and take control.

good luck...awed

Thanks G-W-K and awed for the detailed posts. Thanks KaylaAndy for the succinct one. I've been mulling it over some, trying to decide if I'm codependent now, or WAS codependent.

I also did some searching on the net and found this checklist:

http://www.recoveryresources.org/codependency.html

Honestly, I wouldn't say I'm codependent anymore, I used to be when we were married, and during the first months maybe year of our separation. I remember saying once how I didn't really know who I was without him by my side - there's definite codependency I think. Now my H is probably surprised because I am not that way anymore, I truly have a life completely seperate from him, hence a lot of the tension between us.

Maybe I've still got tendancies towards codependency though because I know that I am happier when I have other people around me and when other people want me around them.

I am realizing that I've had that Beatty book suggested to me before, even the support groups. I'll have to look back at my old threads too perhaps.

Jen

PS: I found the old thread of mine from a year ago that mentions codependency - I was wondering them if my H was codependent. G-W-K - you posted to me back then too. Here's the link: Feb 2003 thread

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Extracts from the book, &#8220;The Road Less Travelled&#8221; written by M. Scott Peck:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DEPENDENCY

The second most common misconception about love is the idea that dependency is love. Two people love each other only when they are quite capable of living without each other but choose to live with each other. I define dependency as the inability to experience wholeness or to function adequately without the certainty that one is being actively cared for by another.

Each and every one of use have dependency needs and feelings. No matter how strong we are, no matter how caring and responsible and adult, if we look clearly into ourselves we will find the wish to be taken care of for a change. But for most of us these desires or feelings do not rule our lives; they are not the predominant theme of our existence. When they do rule our lives and dictate the quality of our existence, then we have something more than just dependency needs or feelings, we are dependent.

People with this disorder, passive dependent people, are so busy seeking to be loved that they have no energy left to love. They never feel &#8216;full-filled&#8217; or have a sense of completeness. They always feel &#8216;a part of me is missing&#8217;. They tolerate loneliness very poorly. Because of their lack of wholeness they have no real sense of identity, and they define themselves solely by their relationships.

Consequently it is one of the behavioral hallmarks of passive dependent people in marriage that their role differentiation is rigid, and they seek to increase rather than diminish mutual dependency so as to make marriage more rather than less of a trap. Consequently, as part of this process, passive dependant people when married will actually forsake skills that they had gained before marriage. Through such behavior, passive dependant marriages may be made lasting and secure, but they cannot be considered healthy or genuinely loving, because the security is purchased at the price of freedom and the relationship serves to retard or destroy the growth of the individual partners.

Passive dependency has its genesis in lack of love. The inner feelings of emptiness from which passive dependant people suffer is the direct result of their parents&#8217; failure to fulfill their needs for affection, attention and care during their childhood. Children growing up in an atmosphere in which love and care are lacking of given with gross inconsistency enter adulthood with no such sense of inner security. Rather, they have an inner sense of insecurity, a feeling of &#8216;I don&#8217;t have enough&#8217; and a sense that the world is unpredictable and ungiving, as well as a sense of themselves as being questionable lovable and valuable. It is no wonder, then, that they feel the need to scramble for love, care and attention wherever they can find it, and once having found it, cling to it with a desperation that leads them to unloving, manipulative behaviour that destroys the very relationship they seek to preserve.

Passive dependant people lack self-discipline. They are unwilling or unable to delay gratification of their hunger for attention. In their desperation to form and preserve attachments they throw honesty to the winds. They cling to outworn relationships when they should give them up. Most important, they lack a sense of responsibility for themselves.

In summary, dependency may appear to be love because it is a force that causes people to fiercely attach themselves to one another. But in actuality it is not love; it is a form of anti-love. It has its genesis in a parental failure to love and it perpetuates the failure. It seeks to receive rather than to give. It nourishes infantilism rather than growth. It works to trap and constrict rather than to liberate. Ultimately it destroys rather than builds relationships, and it destroys rather than builds people.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong> Iceprincesss pionted out to me again last night that my relationship with my H seems to be a coependant one. She's not the fist person to suggest that. Who knows something about this codependency thing? Any books or websites anyone can suggest? I'd like to learn more so that I don't fall into the same patterns again in any future relationships.

Also, one thing I heard Dr. Phil say on an episode just last week, was that he thought the label "codependent" was neither here nor there. Is codependncy an accepted problem by some, but not by others?

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the term is confusing because some people use it as a synonym for dependency. IIRC, the term "codependent" originated as a description of how dependencies such as alcoholism and drug addiction began to affect the loved ones of alcoholics and drug addicts-they were "co-dependents" because in a way they were addicted through the addiction of the loved one-the addiction had the same power to control their lives. Of course, this led to looking at the aspects of behavior that led to someone's getting stuck in that position (being in a relationship they wouldn't walk away from even though it was obviously harmful) in the first place, and noticing that you didn't necessarily have to be in a relationship with an addict of some kind in order to have the same behavioral tendencies as people who were.

And given how sloppy people can be with language, pretty soon you heard folks being described as "codependent on" another person, when what the speaker meant was "dependent on". So now it is hard to tell what people mean when they say "codependent", and I think that's why Dr. Phil does not find it a useful term.

But in the sense that I understand codependency and given what you have written here the last few weeks, I think the concept might have some relevance to you.