Thanks for the response...

You said;

"In real life I could be your best friend, your sister, your cousin, your work-mate and you would never know."

I absolutely agree.

You said;

"Every person has the ability or potential to be dishonest with the ones in their life."

Again I totally agree. In fact, I would take it further and say this;

Everyone has BEEN dishonest with the ones in their life. No one is 100% honest.

This is true of anyone old enough to talk.

Here is where we part in our thinking ....

I have no reason to believe or to trust any person who I know to be a commited liar and fraud. This is true whether it be it in business or in personal relationships.

I am NOT saying someone who has lied in the past (as we all have) cannot become a better version of themselves ... What I am saying is that someone who is ~commited~ to the lie for the rest of his/her life cannot have my best interests at heart as a friend.

It's as if you take a vow saying something like this:

"I hereby swear to allow this person to believe a lie for the rest of their life."

And, my definition of a true friend is one who accepts my imperfections, but at the same time does not put me in a place where I am encouraged to become a more sinful version of myself.

If you are my co-worker, and I confess to you that I have made a serious error at work .... and this error has severe consequences for other co-workers .... and you advise me to keep quiet or else I'd ruin my reputation .... I can say that you are not a true friend. A friend who looks out for my best interest, my better self, my spiritual wholeness ....

Perhaps Endevor you and I have gone out for Margaritas after work. We can laugh together and have fun. But, if you are the person who has advised me to commit to becoming a liar and a fraud for the rest of my life to save my reputation, you are not a true friend.

When you advise another human being to lie to her husband for the rest of her life .... the value and potential you place upon her as a human being is very low indeed.

You tell her she is a liar, a fraud and has no reason to change because it would make life difficult. You advise her to lower her values to a more base and sinful nature.

This is not a friendly piece of advice: "You can lie and get away with it."

I think better of you, and I think better of all sinners .... and I have been way more sinful than you over my years .... but my commitment is to rise above my sins with the help of God, and to reach a spiritual peace that can never be found when one commits to the vow of lie-for-life.

Peace to you. I love you.


Pep

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hi Pepper.
Yeah, I remembered it also but did not know who had written it....Thanks for finding it!

Pep, I do not want to have any bad feelings with you, I know you were just trying to be helpful on the other thread.
However, harsh words, will just not help me at all.
I am moving down the right road now. It is just very slow going though!

I re-posted my Jan message on 'stupidgirl's' thread that I had told my husband while we were in Florida; I guess you didn't know that he now knew!
Love,Sarah

(Sarah's previous message):Pepper, the thing is YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.
Someone pointed that out to you in another post where you told them the same thing that you just told me!

My sister and I are very very close and she DOES NOT KNOW, ladies from my church are my good friends and they don't know, neither do my daughters or my mom; they do not have a clue about my long affair!

So Pepper, your best friend, your Sunday School teacher, your co-worker that you eat lunch with everyday, your sister, your mother (I read she is sick but maybe in previous years?) could be cheating on their husbands!

YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, you CAN'T know, so to say you could not be friends with a person that has been unfaithful and untruthful to their spouse, could be sitting beside you right this very minute, being your very good friend!
Sincerely, Sarah"

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

LOL Sarie!

I've got to hand it to you .... you are just so darn funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think I just found your soulmate for you ... Endevor!

So, Sarie, why don't you tell me what are your cornerstone marriage principles. What makes a good marriage? What qualities make a good friend?

And where does honesty fit in .... in your scheme of things?

LOL

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper, Pepper.
Those are difficult questions!
Before I had the affair, I could have easily answered them, now I really can't.

I want to say: Believing that all things that happen in our lives are part of God's almightly Plan for us, being faithful, honest, open with one another, loving one another unconditionally, for better or worse, having our family be the first priority in all we say and do, never being selfish but putting the other first.

But since I broke the marriage rules, I cannot say those things anymore with an honest heart.
That makes me very very sad.

My morals were top notch before the affair, I was a virgin when I married. I always believed and trusted the Lord would guide me away from temptation.
But it was I, that failed, not God, I made the choice to be unfaithful with this OM.

Life is not a tape recorder that we can rewind and go back and start over.
We have to go on from where we are RIGHT NOW.

If you have any suggestions, feel free to tell me.
This is a different thread than the one SG started so I am up for advice on this one!

Pep, you just don't know how much I still care for the OM, even though I know and accept that it is over!
Love, Sarah

If you have any suggestions, feel free to tell me.

Pep, you just don't know how much I still care for the OM, even though I know and accept that it is over!


I suggest you stop writing about how much you care for OM and write about your re- dedication to your husband and your family.

I suggest that every time you discuss your residual feelings for OM you water them and the feelings grow a little more.

Stop watering the feelings Sarie, let them dry out as they should.

Pep

Sarah,

as a WW, I have to whole heartedly agree with Pep on this... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> every time you discuss your residual feelings for OM you water them and the feelings grow a little more.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and writing about them here does the same thing.

i ditto the suggestion:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suggest you stop writing about how much you care for OM and write about your re- dedication to your husband and your family.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although I fear there is a pitfall in that theory. Last week I was struggling due to contact made by OM on ash wed. I so much wanted to bury myself and close my eyes. So I didn't post about it here. I just didn't want there to be any feelings to be there. I did post to others, mostly in SG's topic, advice to help the thoughts of OP go away by reciting the line "This is not my concern anymore". but in the end i failed becase i then ended up contacting him this past wed.

i guess this is the cost of H not knowing. If he knew, i could of just told him about he call and we could of together decided what to do. and i would have my H as my safety net. Instead i tried to act as if i didn't need any saftey net. I don't know why i didn't come here and post as soon as it happened so that i could of at least sought help from you all.

My sister and I are very very close and she DOES NOT KNOW, ladies from my church are my good friends and they don't know, neither do my daughters or my mom; they do not have a clue about my long affair!

Why don't you tell them? Aren't they your good and close friends? Isn't that what friends are for? To see the real us and love us anyway?

YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, you CAN'T know, so to say you could not be friends with a person that has been unfaithful and untruthful to their spouse, could be sitting beside you right this very minute, being your very good friend!

Sarie, you claim to be very good friends with people who are ignorant to your choices and values these past years.

If they discovered you cheated and feel OK about it, they may choose to not be your very good friend .... until you renounce your cheating.

Of course I probably do have people in my life who are currently cheating .... but if I KNEW they were cheats, then they cannot be in a position of trust.

For instance, if I have a great friend Carrie. And I tell Carrie about my marriage difficulties. And Carrie gives me advice. THEN I later discover Carrie is a fraud and a liar in her own marriage .... her advice to me was given under false pretenses.

Pep

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
Instead i tried to act as if i didn't need any saftey net.

This is what my H loves so much about his AA program.

accountability

His sponsor is his safety net.

And in return, he sponsors (safety nets) 2 other men.

They NEVER sponsor other-sex individuals for obvious reasons.

Pep

My best friend cheated with several men during her marriage. I had no idea. I watched her daughter on the weekends while she needed to 'take some time for herself' which literally meant she was meeting/having sex with other men. I thought I was being a good friend. I had no idea that I was indeed supporting her A's.

When her husband discovered the A's and told everyone, I was crushed. We did not talk for almost four months. She went with her OM who told her that if I did not support her, then I was not a true friend. Well, she ended up getting divorced, but the relationship with OM ended as well once they were able to really be together. We have met once for dinner and she cried very heavy; it broke my heart, but things will never be the same again. I miss my friend, but I also feel betrayed, especially since my own husband has been having an EA and I have always confided in her about our marital problems and she was there with a listening ear and giving me advice.

Sadie, I don't really know your situation, but I can tell you that A's can also have a great impact on friends who really care for you.

Love
Kati

Kati, you have every right to feel betrayed by your friend because you were; she was using you for her coverup.
And any time a friend or relative finds out about an affair of someone they care very much about, they will feel hurt and betrayed...absolutely, secrets hurt, if and when they are found out!

In regards to SG's thread, ss I read the replies, it really helped me to see that I was not alone; that others were having these same terrible withdrawal feelings from their own OP.

Yes, Pep and FL are right; that everytime we write about or think about the OM, it is keeping the memory alive.
I can stop writing (this was the first I had posted since Jan) but I don't think my brain will stop thinking about him, not for a long long time!

I try, I really do.
When thoughts come at night, I switch my thoughts to flowers I want to plant, color combinations I want to achieve, I try to make my mind go somewhere else. (
So Pep, your watering of plants anaolgy was a good one for me as I am big on gardening. (When the weather finally warms up; it is my therapy for sure!)
Love, Sarah
P.S.My ID is Sarie (Sarah was taken) but my name is Sarah.
I do love my husband and I do want our marriage to be great not just good! We will make it if I can just stop pining for the OM! I have GOT to STOP!

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

It never ceases to amaze me how many people have no real concept that radical honesty is not a choice, it is what defines a healthy relationship. Sarie you are right, there are many naricissitic sociopatic personalities (people who use other people for their well-being, and deceive em as needed) who maintain "friendships" with people, but they are not friendships, they are parasitic accomodations. You suck the life out of your sister, and others who consider themself "close" to you with your deceptions about who you are. That is the worst kind of predator, far worse than a simple wandering spouse....it is a cold calculated decision to keep people focused on meeting your needs cause you want them in your life, you steal their rigjt to determine for themself whether they want to be your friend.... how do you live with yourself?

That is a rhetorical question, because it makes no sense to a narcissist, and your words make it clear what you are...that is why you take the positions you do.....you are a very dangerous person, a people user.

Kati, you too were used by a sociopathic personality, I guess you just have to consider you were lucky to find out at least...so you can find a true friend. There are many many people like this out there, and they truly think they are Ok, or good loyal people....when what they really are is emotional parasites, users, who charm people into being their friends, but revealing nothing about themself that could potentially push one away.....until they are done with you, then they drop you like yesterdays news....that is until they need you again. Someone should write a book about these kinds of people and how to spot them.

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

my humble opinion. although i will not dispute:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> radical honesty is not a choice, it is what defines a healthy relationship </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the following is not worth reading
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the worst kind of predator, far worse than a simple wandering spouse....it is a cold calculated decision to keep people focused on meeting your needs cause you want them in your life, you steal their rigjt to determine for themself whether they want to be your friend.... how do you live with yourself?
That is a rhetorical question, because it makes no sense to a narcissist, and your words make it clear what you are...that is why you take the positions you do.....you are a very dangerous person, a people user.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it is a cold-hearted, mean-spirited response.

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

sufdb,

In a way this is true, but it also makes me think about myself lately. What kind of person do I come across as if others think that it is okay to treat me like this?

I've usually been in victim mode, but since I came on this board, I have also been thinking about myself a lot and why this has been happening to me. When I was in High School, my then 'best friend' had a relationship with my boyfriend. It broke my heart and I never talked to her again. But I went back in 'victim mode' to him, putting up with his s*** until I could take no more. I ended up falling in love with someone else and I broke up with him.

But I have noticed that I have frequently allowed people to use me or treat me badly and I'm now trying to make a conscious effort to help myself and start developing meaningful and caring friendships.

Kati


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
Kati, you too were used by a sociopathic personality, I guess you just have to consider you were lucky to find out at least...so you can find a true friend. There are many many people like this out there, and they truly think they are Ok, or good loyal people....when what they really are is emotional parasites, users, who charm people into being their friends, but revealing nothing about themself that could potentially push one away.....until they are done with you, then they drop you like yesterdays news....that is until they need you again. Someone should write a book about these kinds of people and how to spot them. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
<strong> my humble opinion. although i will not dispute:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> radical honesty is not a choice, it is what defines a healthy relationship </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the following is not worth reading
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the worst kind of predator, far worse than a simple wandering spouse....it is a cold calculated decision to keep people focused on meeting your needs cause you want them in your life, you steal their rigjt to determine for themself whether they want to be your friend.... how do you live with yourself?
That is a rhetorical question, because it makes no sense to a narcissist, and your words make it clear what you are...that is why you take the positions you do.....you are a very dangerous person, a people user.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it is a cold-hearted, mean-spirited response. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL I have been letting you be, watching your struggle (without chastising you, I had made my points), IMO the jury is still out on you, you are saying the right things, and I understand fear....but intentions, while of some use, mean little (in the end), compared to actions...There are principles involved and ignoring them (denial) or subverting them (rationalization) reveals ones nature. Everyone makes mistakes, that isn't particularly important (well except to learn, so you don't do it again)...what is important is stealing other peoples lives, that's sociopaths do, they connive, conceal, manipulate, lie, decieve, omit...whatever it takes to get the outcome they want...they have essentially no ethics at all except what works for them. There is no excuse, none, nada, no justification possible for the horrendous act of stealing someone elses life.....if you decieve someone so they will have a relationship with you, you have reduced them to property, stole their right to self-determination.....you cannot conceal anything about yourself and have an honest relationship, there is no intimacy without vulnerability (to being rejected) and honesty re who you are.....I don't make these rules or principles, they arise out of the nature of being human beings...If you understand this, then you are healthy, but very scared..and you will tell the truth...If you don't understand, and think you get to decide, you are a sociopathic personality....that's just the way it works. If you murder someone you are a murderer, even if you think it is for their own good (as people do sometimes)...If you steal someones life through deception you are a sociopath, and a very unsafe individual.

As for not worth reading, why? Do hard truths upset you? I could say all this stuff in some watered down PC manner...but to what end? I can't think of a worse kind of human predator (well maybe some psychopathic torturer I suppose, but that isn't my point)...then a relationship partner who manipulates my choice to be with them by concealing information a jury of my peers would conclude is something that would be considered important.... There is no doubt in your mind your H will react to this information...he may indeed be "hurt" but it is his hurt, his life, his choice how to deal with it....you cannot decide for him, that reduces him to childlike status.....he is a man, treat him like one, and maybe he will continue the marriage, and maybe not, his decision....not yours.

sufdb, i disagree with your thought that not confessing an A is "stealing the person's life".

I do believe it is detrimental to a marriage. I do believe it is taking away the BS's choice. I do believe it is leaving a person you love at risk of being hurt far more by discovering the A on their own. I do believe it is leaving yourself open to the risk of sliding backwards.

In your own case, you said it was not the A that ended your divorce, but other issues. So it seems that an A must not be the very worst thing to everyone out there.

you asked why bother writing in a more tone down way. my question to you is, why did you bother to write what you wrote? did you think you were doing anybody any good? having a positive benefit on anyone? i would be surprise if these kinds of posts result in any good.

Sarie:

"If you have any suggestions, feel free to tell me.
This is a different thread than the one SG started so I am up for advice on this one!
Pep, you just don't know how much I still care for the OM, even though I know and accept that it is over!"

How about this?: Share every little intimate detail of your time with the OM and your thoughts about him with your H. Don't keep it 2 yourself. You will think that this will hurt him more, and in a way it will. But it is just the kind of hurt you and he MUST get through 2 restore intimacy between you.

Why do I suggest this? Because my W still won't share what she "had" with RM with me. She considers their past "private" between her and him. Now, si2ations around our house and her family are raising their unresolved heads again, and I'm hearing a lot of the "me first" kinds of things from her that she said during her A. It doesn't always help 2 know that she really doesn't want another A with RM, either. Just last week I saw that his email address is still in her contacts list in her private email account.

Recovery is a growth process, not just for you but for your H as well. I think I've seen enough stories from BSs on here who've spent years recovering from their WSs long-term A 2 know that it may be only fair 2 warn you that, although your H may want very much 2 keep his M 2gether now, with time, particularly if it takes you a long time 2 get over your feelings for the OM, he may not feel inclined 2 want 2 save it at some point.

Harsh? Probably. But infidelity is harsh. Horrible, in fact. And recovery is hard work. Rebuilding a marriage won't work if you can't be completely intimate with your spouse, and that won't be possible if you can't share how you feel with him. There can be no such thing as a "privacy" issue that shouldn't be shared with your H, even if you felt that it was something "special" between you and the OM.

I hope you and your H can make it back 2 true intimacy. Exclusive intimacy.

-ol' 2long

Sarie - your statements are repulsive. Hypocrisy in the third degree. I hope you REALLY heal in time.

Harley's words from the home page, quick clicks, the ending.....

"We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs.
If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair.
And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable. "

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

All,

When I read this response from 20ak on the recovery board, I couldn't resist copying it to here. If you want to read the rest of the thread; the starter is Soap Opera.

Hiya Soap...

Y'know the tone of this forum has changed an awful lot in a year and judging by what I've been reading this might sound different.

Real simple - Keep it up and your marriage is over sooner or later.

If you have been LB'ing in the face of serious and concerted efforts to make things right then the next affair or divorce is out there waiting.

Let me explain that a little - I am way harder on FWS's than most I've seen around here lately. Frankly I am a little nauseated with the seeming acceptance some have for excuses of why an affair was OK. It is NOT ok under any circumstances and it CANNOT be blamed on the BS - Period. Affairs are wrong, hurtful, selfish and plain inexcusable.

WS's who refuse to stop and continue to make excuses do not need to be treated with patience and kindness and understanding - they need a good kick in the [censored] and the realization that their spouse has had it and there is no wiggle room, no negotiating and no compromise with regard to fidelity - they lose the OP right the hell now or they are out.

So all that to disspell any rumor that I am sympathetic to my WS brethren before i say the next part.

BS's are every bit as much responsible for recovery as WS's are. The BS's who wind up failing in recovery (assuming a WS willing to break contact and walk over coals to atone) more often than not make two mistakes:

"Honey, I think it is your turn to do the dishes" "WHAT! You shoulda thought of that when you were $*$&#* that #$%* you were running around with!!!!"
Not real conducive to cooperation. First part is that the marriage and the affair are seperate issues that you need to TRY to split. The affair is something the WS has to atone for and they damned well should work to do so. The other part is your marriage. There is a finite number of times that someone is going to reach out and try to make things better only to get their hand bit before they quit. If the OP is still chasing them and they are getting their [censored] kicked around the house you may as well drive them over to the OP.

Why do affairs really happen? It takes different forms and it's about different emotional needs in each case but it boils down to acceptance and affirmation and feeling cared for and appreciated. If your husband feels horrible about what he did and you rub his nose in it enough times he's gonna give up. When he gives up the affair will still be his fault but the failed recovery is going to be yours.

The second thing BS's do to sabotage their OWN recovery as well as the marriage's?
Looking for fair.

Real simple - the only Fair in an affair comes right after 'af'.
There is nothing you can ever do to make it fair. You have been wronged, badly, cruelly and horribly.
...now what?
Your WS can't make up for it. They should try and if you want your marriage to recover you should think of ways for them to pay the debt - even if it is silly stuff. In our case I was willing to do anything. We came up with a symbolic payment plan - it wasn't actually repayment of the debt (impossible) but it was a way for her to hold her head up and it was a way for me to demonstrate real remorse. She had a list - at 100 points I was allowed to ask forgiveness. It became a bit of a game and we laughed and it helped (symbolic, doesn't change the facts). Things like painting a room - 1 point. Letting her reach under the blankets and warm her hands on my belly after scraping ice from her widshield - 1/4 point. That helped, but it never 'paid' the debt. it did prove to her that I was damned sorry and that's big.

Get over the getting even part - revenge, payback etcetera is a path to an angry divorce.

Here's a though a lot of BS's will object to and say 'well that is easy for a WS to say".

You have a choice.

One of the toughest things for any BS is the feeling that they never chose recovery, this was all thrust upon them. Not true.
The affair was thrust upon them, damn the WS for that!

Recovery? That is a choice. Even the Bible says (paraphrasing) that if your spouse screws around you can dump'm and be blameless.
A BS choses recovery or they do not - if they do then they are 50% responsible for the success or failure. Now some will say it isn't that simple and it isn't fair - I have kids, we have a house, etcetera.

yeah? So?

It is still a choice. Grasping that will go a LOOONG way toward your recovery. You DO NOT have to take him back, you have the power to CHOOSE that. Stop and think about why this helps a BS. The feeling of powerlessness and unfairness and embarassment is a huge hurdle. if you can say "Y'know, i don't have to take him/her back - but I really do love them and want to give us a shot at a great future".

Well, that means that you are no longer powerless - you CHOSE to give a second chance, how you act on that decision is your responsibility. If you intend to punish them for life to get even you deserve to be as miserable as you make them.

After talking to a LOT of folks who made it through this there are a couple great truths.

Recovery is a misnomer. It implies returning to where you were. Where you were was one day from an affair starting - there were huge problems present. Rebuilding is a better term. Building a relationship anew. We still have issues and I don't have all the answers by a loooong shot but here are the critical differences:
1. No swallowing anger/resentment - talk it out! Unmet EN's result in frustration and resentment and a feeling that you have been wrongfully denied that which you are entitled to. THAT makes an affair easy.

2. No secrets. Every aspect of my finances, communication and time is transparent and visible to her and her to me - think it over - what secrets or privacy should you have with a spouse? If you have a stroke you are going to expect them to wipe your butt and water you - privacy is not needed and invites misunderstanding.

3. Simple really - a general agreement that we WANT to be happy and a willingness to realize that goal together.

In the end there are 1000 theories and all sorts of psycho-babble about the various aspects of infidelity that can be distilled down to a few sentences.
Affairs are wrong, they cause a LOT of pain and misery for all involved.
Recovery is impossible without a WS willing to do whatever it takes to put right what they have broken without pride, without privacy and without contact with the OP.
Recovery is not about getting even and the affair is never gotten over - it is set aside if you reach a point where you can say that it was the impetus for real, meaningful change.

...and the bottom line - a good relationship requires that you are open and honest and willing to work at it side by side. No agreeing when you don't agree, no giving in and then resenting, no withdrawing and seeking satisfaction outside the marriage and most of all no keeping score. We all look for a way to solve the affair - never happens. if you solve the issues that led up to it and build a happy, REAL and secure love together then it becomes an unpleasant memory.

Think it over - and good luck

The end from 2oak. Good food for thought! CSue