I have read on this board and TOW board how the BS has no reason to be angry at the OP -- how all their anger should be focussed on the WS, the marriage and themselves.

I disagree that a BS has no right to be angry at the OP for a simple reason, honor. I know that honor may seem an old fashion concept, but it is important in a personal code of conduct. It is a concept whereby one creates a trust between themselves and other human beings .. even ones they haven't met.

And yes, in this day and age it is one that takes a huge battering -- but in the case of an affair if just ONE person of the affair couple had acted with honor and affair would not have taken place or would end.

This did happen to me when I was 19 and on a summer job at a radio station. One of the newscasters and I always talked and one night he "walked" me to my car for safety.

Once there we began to talk some more and he put his arms around me and kissed me deeply. I did return the kiss, even though I knew he was married. In truth his arms felt wonderful, his kiss was sweet, I liked him and I was between relationships. I felt myself melting and it would have been easy. But I did regain my senses and pulled away.

I told him that this was impossible since he was married. He gave me all the standard lines, he wife and he had grown apart, she didn't understand him, I was so beautiful and full of life, where she wasn't.

It was hard, and it felt awful saying "no" and sticking to my guns. But I did. I told him to get a divorce first -- I should have said "go see a marriage counselor" too.

I drove away that night and finished the summer job a few days later.

It felt awful saying "no"--- much to my surprise I had to admit to myself that I was interested -- but I also had a personal code.

I used that code again when approached by an old boyfriend to have an affair in marriage #1.

The point is, where one of the two people in the "affair" has honor ... the affair doesn't happen.

Yes my honor was AWOL when I was weak and had an affair...it only reinforces to me how important that code is, to rely on it when weak... something I did not do.

So yes BSs, you do have a right to be angry at the OP for their lack of honor (even if the WS would have just found someone else, it wouldn't have been them) and OPs you know that the BS does have a right to be angry about this -- if only this. And you must ask yourself, esepecially if you've had more than one affair with a MP -- "where is your honor?"

way2

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: way2 ]</small>

Totally agree!...honor and consideration for all the people who will wind up being hurt over an affair..in my case the Ow lied to her children and told him hubby was not married...also in my books a woman who allows a man into the lives of her children knowing full well that the possibilities that he may return to his family is only thinking of herself and not the effects of her childre down the road but from what I understand this is not the first time this has happened...her children all have emotional problems and so unfair to do this to them

Way2,
I absolutely agree and even more so when the A partner is single. My Husbands affair has left behind a train wreck and his single OW has just gone on her merry way with no issues at all. Am I angry at her - Hell yes I am. She is a mother and already seeing the devastating effects of divorce on her own children. Why would you want to inflict that pain on another family? If she had such strong feelings for my husband (as husband states) then why was she not considering what devastation he would be left with in the end???
I guess I also see the OP as selfish and lacking integrity and character. But as I read in another post if this is what we think of the OP are we not thinking the same of our WS?
I have come to understand my husbands reasons for the A (I think) but have yet to understand how the OW who is someone in our community could let themselves potentially be the reason 3 innocent children are left in the devastastion of divorce.
Anger only touches the tip of the iceberg for the OP IMHO!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by way2:
<strong> I have read on this board and TOW board how the BS has no reason to be angry at the OP -- how all their anger should be focussed on the WS, the marriage and themselves.way2 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? I'm so glad I haven't read this before. Oh puke. Of course I'm angry at the OP. I'm angry at my h, my marriage, etc. But come on! My OP is my age, single, living with her mom. She knew my h was married, her mom knew my h was married, yet she invited him over to her house. She took advantage of the fact that we were having marital problems and she gave him the exact acceptance he wasn't getting at home. I hold her very responsible. I don't believe my h would have found someone else. I believe that she provided him an opportunity he wasn't looking for. And when she offered (yep, she offered each time, he never started anything--- very believable with my h) what man in his right mind can say no to a woman fondling him. I do not and will not ever hold my h blameless, but you can believe that I hold her more to blame. She was a predator and my weak and hurting h her prey. Yes I believe honor should be there. Honor as a human being and honor as a woman. I think trying to steal another woman's husband is about the most pathetic thing you can do!!
Whew! That felt good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by way2:
<strong> I have read on this board and TOW board how the BS has no reason to be angry at the OP -- how all their anger should be focussed on the WS, the marriage and themselves.way2 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? I'm so glad I haven't read this before. Oh puke. Of course I'm angry at the OP. I'm angry at my h, my marriage, etc. But come on! My OP is my age, single, living with her mom. She knew my h was married, her mom knew my h was married, yet she invited him over to her house. She took advantage of the fact that we were having marital problems and she gave him the exact acceptance he wasn't getting at home. I hold her very responsible. I don't believe my h would have found someone else. I believe that she provided him an opportunity he wasn't looking for. And when she offered (yep, she offered each time, he never started anything--- very believable with my h) what man in his right mind can say no to a woman fondling him. I do not and will not ever hold my h blameless, but you can believe that I hold her more to blame. She was a predator and my weak and hurting h her prey. Yes I believe honor should be there. Honor as a human being and honor as a woman. I think trying to steal another woman's husband is about the most pathetic thing you can do!!
Whew! That felt good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course it's acceptable to be angry at OP. They swore no vows with you, that much is true. But they had an implicit agreement with you as a fellow member of the human race to not screw you over.

I don't care who you are, OPs. The presence of a ring on your potential sex partner's finger should be like a big sign saying, "DON'T TOUCH. NOT AVAILABLE." The only acceptable explanation might be if you don't know the person is married. And if you know their spouse -- as two of WW's OM did -- then that's even more unforgiveable. May God have mercy on you. Because I won't.

Okay you know my story. Yes I would draw and quarter the other man if it were legal...h#ll I'd do if I know I wouldn't get caught legal or not.

That being said this seems to be a double edged sword. Who should have the honor the OP or the WS?

Now if we are talking about OP being a serial cheater then clearly its okay to assign a higher level of blame to them than if this happened to be their first affair.

Foolish unthinking selfishness for a first time affairee versus malicious uncaring disregard of a serial cheater changes the picture.

But still I feel it was my spouse's job to protect our marriage to protect me.

Yes I hate the OM. I hate him because in his own handwriting and in his own's therapist notes he is clearly a sexual predator that targeted women having sexual problems in their marriages. Women that he suspected had been sexually abused.

Yes it helps me to know the OP played games used pressure and deceipt to get what he wanted. And that he is a mentally unsound person that preys on women.

But how did that change the fact it was my wife's job to remain faithful? Her place to have honor?

But would I hate him if it were a simple case of two people being attracted then selfishly acting on that attraction?

I'd have to say no.

Would I be angry?

Again probably no...after I processed things.

Would I respect him?

Yeah right after the Winter Olympics in H#ll. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

And that of respect stems from personally seeing the pain an affair causes in a marriage especially where children are involved.

I completely agree with the issue of honor and moral conduct. Honor used to be held in high esteem and people would defend it, if necessary or if someone breached it.

To hurting in sa:

You say in your post </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what man in his right mind can say no to a woman fondling him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Come on, the answer is clear. A man with honor and integrity does not fall for that. He should not have allowed fondling to begin with. Both of them are at fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She was a predator and my weak and hurting h her prey</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weak and hurting? Hummm.. What stories is he feeding you? He should be held accountable for his actions. Yes, you have every right to be annoyed with the OP, but that person hasn't made any vows to you. Your H did.

Originally posted by bummed out:
his single OW has just gone on her merry way with no issues at all

You may not be aware that most single OW do eventually have issues with their past affair (assuming she is not a sociopath).

Sometimes their ability to commit fully is very damaged.

Usually they carry trust and intimacy wounds.

Their disrespect for marriage carries over into their future marriage.

Their work to recover is different than a married persons' .... they do not "get away scott free" .... but their pain mostly has a hidden and more incideous poisoning of their life.

Sometimes they become chronic adulteresses.... which is so sad.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bummedout:
<strong>I guess I also see the OP as selfish and lacking integrity and character. But as I read in another post if this is what we think of the OP are we not thinking the same of our WS?
I have come to understand my husbands reasons for the A (I think) but have yet to understand how the OW who is someone in our community could let themselves potentially be the reason 3 innocent children are left in the devastastion of divorce.
Anger only touches the tip of the iceberg for the OP IMHO! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same here bummed - FWH's OW is single divorced mom part of our church community with no thought to how it would affect our 3 kids.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting in sa:
<strong> She knew my h was married...
She took advantage of the fact that we were having marital problems and she gave him the exact acceptance he wasn't getting at home. I hold her very responsible. I don't believe my h would have found someone else. I believe that she provided him an opportunity he wasn't looking for.

I think trying to steal another woman's husband is about the most pathetic thing you can do!!
Whew! That felt good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree the above statements. Altho in my case my H was the pursuer but she should still take 1/2 the blame.

I feel very just in being angry with her. Altho my H might have mislead her towards the end of A abou the state of our M, it shouldn't matter...married is married period.

Yep, I agree also.

Honor is very important. Simular to SDFR's W, Poe was manipulated by a predator, someone who has no honor or morals. But if Poe would have kept her honor and said No instead of Yes then I wouldn't be in this position. I hate the OM for what he did to my W, and the unknown number of other women he has used. I consider him an enemy, and wouldn't mind having his balls in a vice with me tighening them. Anger yes, I am angry.

A few weeks before my ex-fiance's "indiscretion" I was visiting him at work (a hospital). She was one of the people who came out into the lobby, was introduced to me, and said "hello" while looking me in the face.

She knew of my existence. She looked me in the eyes, already having started to "move in" by buying him a Christmas gift. (Red flag disregarded by me.) Do I blame her? Hell yeah!!!

He said to me once, "I wish you wouldn't call her a skank. She was having problems with an abusive boyfriend." Well, then...if she wanted a new one, she should have found one who wasn't taken. A skank? Most definitely!

I gotta say I agree with you. The OW in our case had no honor this was her at least 2nd affair with a married man and she was proud of it. She took it as a boost to her ego and once told me that yes she has a good self esteme she could take a married man away from his family.

I think its true if one person had acted with honor then the whole thing would not have happened. I know and I usually wont admit this but I was tempted once long ago in my previous marriage to my EX H.

The guy even told me he liked me (or had feelings for me) and I did like him too, just not really those kinds of feelings but we were close as friends go. I didn't do it though, and I am glad I didn't. Even though my EX H was a butt head I am glad I did not cheat on him. I dont know but that would have made me feel as if I lost something. I wouldent have felt right about it, so I am glad I didn't do it.

As far as being angry at the OW I have that down to an art form. She is way across the country from me and thats a really good thing. We could not be in the same town probally not even the same state as I have WAY too much temper for my own good or hers.

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: hopesalive ]</small>

way2

Your 15 minutes of fame just turned into a half hour. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=19464

Well, this is a good day for me to respond to this post. As anyone who has read my posts will know I have had to put up with OW still working for H since the details of the A have slowly emerged. This is her last week and it is now hitting me just how hard having this, yes skank, still work for him.

The new office manager she has been training has turned out to be a major loser. H is very upset and realized this morning he has to fire her. He said to me "I wish you had the office skills to help me out." My reply, " My counselor skills have helped get you through this." To which he agreed.

Anyway, in front of me he called OW who was at work to tell her he would be firing new person. I couldn't even stay in same room while they were talking. It was all business and she needed to know. I walk in the room and H starts filling me in on situation and I lost it. I said, "Wait a minute! Do you have a clue what it's like for me to hear you talking to that person who contributed to totally F$$$ing up our lives. I'm not letting you off the hook, but she is a (at this point I'm in yelling mode) a F$$$ing "B".It's because of what you and she did that you are in the jam you are in now." I then go upstairs, as he is just staring at me, and I yell "F$$$ing "B" one more time and slam the door. OK please, don't anyone tell me about "No more LBing." I really don't care. All in all I have been an angel. My H needs to know how hard this has been. He came upstairs and told me he was glad I got that out.

Do I hate her at the moment? Your dang right I do. I am nowhere close to even wanting to forgive her. I knew this OW for 5 yrs. I even gave her a career test and told her she would make a good funeral director and supported her efforts to become with. She knew my H and I had one of the worst years of crisis with numerous deaths. She got involved with him when my dad was dying and died. Yes, she was vulnerable do to her own marriage problems and filing for divorce. My H is not ready to even admit he might have had a part in that. Too much guilt. He actually said to her "Your marriage was bad, but my marriage isn't." when trying to break it off. Did she help him when he tried to end it 4 or 5 times? NO! Did she take into account my boys who worked at the business all summer? No! Did she show any remorse? H says it actually bothered him during A because she didn't. What did she have to lose? Nada! She was going to start a new career and hopefully be with the boss. Oh by the way she is bankrupt. And this is the funniest! H was going to give her partner's nice, new, shiny company car. Partner told me when he found that out, before we new of the A, he told H "Why don't you give that car to W, who is driving a 10 yr. old car?" Ow must have thought she hit the lottery. There must have been drool coming out of her mouth. It's such a shame she now has to find another job, and if she wants to be a funeral director she might actually have to go to school like everyone else does. I guess you could say I'm not too fond of the OW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And that of respect stems from personally seeing the pain an affair causes in a marriage especially where children are involved.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what ticks me off so much. The OW, whom I know, has 3 small kids and I have one son. She knowingly involved herself with my H (she and her H separated and are getting D). I told her to stop thinking about herself and think about the consequences for my 10 year old son whose life is being destroyed. She had my H convinced that our M was terrible and not worth saving. Yeah, how could it be saved with that b**** in the picture. She has no integrity, no honor. Yes my H should be held accountable too.

But how dare she step into my M. That was a conscious choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She knew my h was married...
She took advantage of the fact that we were having marital problems and she gave him the exact acceptance he wasn't getting at home. I hold her very responsible. I don't believe my h would have found someone else. I believe that she provided him an opportunity he wasn't looking for.

I think trying to steal another woman's husband is about the most pathetic thing you can do!!
Whew! That felt good! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW! That is my exact situation! I totally agree. Any woman with any ounce of honor or integrity would have told my H, "I'm sorry your in this situation, but you should really be talking to a MC, not me."

I really do feel such extreme hatred for the OW. I'm trying not to, its not the Christian thing to feel. But every time I see that smug b****, I just want to deck her. But I don't <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am the better person here. I have some dignity!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> way2

Your 15 minutes of fame just turned into a half hour.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=19464
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! Thanks for the heads up Stunned .. I wonder if it will make it over to the TOW board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The irony and the angry.

My W started out to help the OM because his M was failing. In the process ours got worse and he took advantage of it (yes I know there were other dynamics involved, me).

Then OM used the fact that his W had an affair to rangle more time with custody of his children.

He also has a bumper sticker on his cubicle stating "My son has more honor than your son" He's a Star Trek fan (but he kind'a looks like a "Klingon") IMO.

But in reality; ...you know what "pond scum" is? Well he's the sticky stuff that makes it kling(on) to the bottom of the pond. hehe. sorry.

I feel better now.

S&C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

This thread really got me thinking (again) and also got my blood boiling!

The OW in our case is truly dishonorable. When I think about the things I learned about this A, I just want to go beat the crap out of the OW. (And my H too!)

But when it comes to the OW, I just can't believe the things she did and told me about (or that I found out). Get this.

*OW tells my H that her H had an A early on in their 15 year M. So that justified the first A she had with my H. Sounds like revenge A, oh, except that OW and my H fell "in love"!

*OW tells me that her H found out about the A with my H 10 years ago, so she ended the A because she felt so guilty. Said she never told my H the reason why she stopped the A. Turns out that OW's H suspected the A 10 years ago but OW would never admit to it (I learned this from OW's H).

*When I found out about the A, OW tells me that she knows exactly how I feel because her H had an A with her sister two years ago. Tells me that she cannot believe that she has caused someone else this kind of pain.

*Asked me what stage I was in (this was 5 days after d-day)...had I cried yet because it sounded like I was in the angry stage.

*OW recommended MC for me and H "because it really helps"! Oh really.

*OW's H tells me that OW accused him of having an A with her sister two years ago and drug him to ONE YEAR OF MC!

ONE YEAR OF MC!

Ok, so obviously this OW knows the pain and devasted caused by having an A. She supposedly went through it as a WS and a BS. Went to MC - actually sounds like she went more than once.

But gets into another A...because when she saw my H for the first time in 10 years, all of the feelings she felt for him back then came rushing back to her!

Tells me to go to MC because it works. Apparently not for this dishonorable OW.

OW knows about MC after an A. Learned about the stages in recovery. "Remembered" the pain and devastation of finding out about your S having an A...but did it again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as being angry at the OW I have that down to an art form. She is way across the country from me and thats a really good thing. We could not be in the same town probally not even the same state as I have WAY too much temper for my own good or hers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you hopesalive. It's a good thing OW is two states away because I also have WAY too much temper for my own good or hers.

After having felt this kind of pain, I can't imagine...no matter how tempting, no matter how lonely I felt, no matter how many EN's are not getting met...ever having an A...being that selfish and inflicting that kind of pain on other people.

Yep, it's all about honor.

sss

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>