for those of you that were praying for us and waiting for an update, i am sorry it took so long for me to post this msg.

i got up this morning, trying to will myself into telling him i was not going into work because i wanted to talk to him, but the words just would not come out and when it came time to drive my son to school, i took him and then continued into the office.

i felt that you all had the right to know this information. your care and support have been wonderful. i just could not step up to the task.

FL,

CHICKEN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Seriously, thank you for letting us know. But, don't give up, you are getting closer to doing something you KNOW won't be pleasant. But, I think you have realized needs to be done.

FL, there is one thing you need to truely understand here. You are being encouraged to tell your H, because Harley, and many here feel that it will give BOTH of you the best chance at happiness: WITH EACH OTHER. It is not being encouraged to punish you or because anyone here feels you or your H will enjoy this information.

But, we do feel it can lead to a deeper and better marriage for both of you. No one can guarentee that this will happen but you will have upped the odds.

So hang in there, you have NOT failed, you have just delayed. See what you can do about facing this, you could even sort of write a speech as a practice so that when you do talk you are able to tell him what you want to tell him.

Let me ask you this. Have you decided how to tell him the really important parts of what he needs to hear? I don't mean you had an affair, but why you are telling him, what you hope for the future with him, what you think of him. You see he needs to know about the affair, and he will stay stuck in the A for a period of time, but the reason to tell him is to better handle the FUTURE. He needs to know you do want a FUTURE with him and you do want him happy.

So think carefully. I think in someways what you are about to do is sort of like the Plan B letter. It is very hard to do that, but it is a LOVE LETTER. In many ways what you are about to do is in fact a love letter. I know that sounds very strange, but you will never do anything that will hurt you more or him more than what you are about to do, and oddly enough it is about love and the dream of love that you have for you and your H.

Pretty confusing isn't it?? You can do this and I know you will.

God Bless FL,

JL

Just want to repeat what JL said.

We're not giving up on ya. {{{{{fl}}}}}

Blessings to you.

S&C

I also echo what JL said. Have faith in yourself and your H. I do not believe you will regret being brave. I do not believe that for a second.

We believe in you! We love you! We support you! We are here for you. Keep posting. Keep telling us what you are feeling and thinking.

You need to keep working through it, and eventually you will come to the end of the working, and the beginning of the talking.

Hugs and love, Amy

FL, the truth was the greatest gift my W ever gave me. I suppose rivaled only by my 3 beautiful children. It will take courage, patience and love but you can do it. It is truly the high road. Prepare yourself for some hurtful comments but in the end you will realize it will bring you closer having faced it together.

Finally,
It's OK, now pick yourself up and take a deep breath and do what you have already decided you must do.

I don't have to tell you that this will be hard, it will awful to tell and awful to hear, you know that. You also know that not telling is not sparing your H's feelings, it is allowing a roadblock to remain in the way of your future relationship.

Many of us here have been there, on one side or the other. It's horrible for everyone, but the truth is the only way to finally free yourself of the chains that are holding you back.

Do it, soon! I will be praying for you.

thanks everyone. i am not giving up on me either. i do know what i need to do and I am moving in the right direction. I don't think I was really appropriately prepared to tell him this week anyway. I have been saying in my head what i want to say, i would be best to put it down on paper (as most of you have advised me to do anyway). i will get to writing and i will keep you informed with my progress and i would also love feedback on what i write before i tell him. I vow to check in with a progress report by monday. (if it is not too much to ask, please hound me if you don't hear from me first!!!)

thanks again, you are all very wonderful people. surrounding myself with you is the best thing i can do for myself right now. i know that and i am not running away from it!!

God Bless you all!

Don't you worry, missy. Hounding is one of the things I do best. Just ask ARK and star*fish!

You are doing great. Write it, re-write it, re-re-write it, then type it up after that and make revisions as you go. Shoot a copy off to us, and we'll give feedback.

We are your support. Use us.

I am not disappointed in you. You surprise me every time I read your posts. I think you are an amazing woman.

Making mistakes is easy. This is the hard part. And you are taking the time and effort to fix it in the best way you possibly can.

That goes a long way in forgiveness. At least, as a BS, it sure does with me!

Hugs and love! I'll be looking for posts before Monday! Amy

Dear Finally Learning.
Most of the people writing you are BS, some are WS that got found out (just a few confessed willingly) and the there is JL, a kind caring man that gives good advice.

I have been reading your posts and you are being pushed to confess against your will.
Only YOU know your husband and your marriage so this decision HAS to be yours.
It is NOT written in stone.

It is what this MB teaches (radical honesty of past transgressions) but it is not agreed upon by all marriage counselors.

After reading this heartfelt message from a man whose wife betrayed him,(Uphill) it makes me wonder if you should tell your husband or keep it to yourself, this toxic secret?
Do you want to put your husband through this kind of emotional pain that will be inside him for the rest of his life?

Had you been caught in your affair, you would have HAD to, but you have a choice!
(My husband was found out through a careless e-mail account left open!)

Perhaps you could just be the best wife you can be from this day forward, REPENT, and ask for Jesus's forgiveness and never ever cheat again!

Here is his message: 'Uphill'
posted February 25, 2004 09:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mrsx:

Sometimes, as BH, we often choose not to reveal how we are feeling to our WW.

To further expand on this:
That my W had an A was both humiliating and painful. I thought I had opened up to her; granted as a man my communication style is different than a woman's, but I was as honest and open as I could be. Part of that, for a man, means being "strong and silent" as opposed to "whiny", so I did keep a lot of things to myself in our M. But, I thought I had opened my heart to her more than any other person in this world.

So, I chose not to reveal too much to her after D-day because I did not want to put myself in for another heart-stomping. A large part of it was because I was terrified that she would discard me like a used pair of shoes once I'd outlived my usefulness. She did it once before, what was to stop her from doing it again?

But part of it was to appear strong. Again, I didn't want to appear whiny and needy - especially when I needed her than she seemed to need me. Talk about a position of weakness! So, holding back was not only a way of protecting myself from further pain and rejection, it was also a way of showing I am strong, and that if rejected I will survive.

It is also unbecoming for a man to be whiny and needy. It is unmanly to be in a position where you need the other person so much more than they need you. It is unmanly to be so reliant on someone else. It is unmanly to be hurt. Men are supposed to be tough, self reliant, and with resolve. Thus, accepting back a WW and opening up to her are, on some level, counter to being a man.

So, when your H holds back from you, please keep in mind what may be going through his head. You have no idea of how humiliating what you did was. You have no idea of how humiliating it can be to take your H back. Maybe, like me, he is feeling that it is a tremendous imbalance in need. He needs you more than you seem to need him and holding back is a way of making the playing field seem more level.

Because, if it were acknowledged that he does indeed need you more, it gives you all the power. You are in a position to do this again, or leave him altogether.

I am not saying this IS what is going on in his mind, mind you. I am only saying that I felt those things, I have seen other BH feel them, and it is possible that your H is feeling them. He may be doing better processing this intellectually than I did, but it may well be a struggle he wages internally and the fact that he is would be just another thing he wouldn't want to share with you. Either because he is committed to resolving it on his own, he desperately wants to have it resolved, or he is afraid that it would simply add to that unattractive "not manly" image.

You know, what I would have wanted most from my W after D-Day? Reaffirmation that I was a man. Recognition of my good parts. I had many weaknesses, but I was not and am not a bad, evil man. Recognition of my standing by her during the times she missed OM and wanted to go after him. Thanks for my patience when she could not come to me intimately because she was still pining for OM.

Acknowledgement that I was choosing to take her back.
Gratitude for giving her that chance.

--------------------
BS 39
FWW 35
2 kids
My family IS my life

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Blessed Time,

thank you for your post. if you have seen my posts, obviously i am a confused person!!! and knowing this, i am taking it slow. Of course I was so much more confused during the entire period of time the A occured so that is good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

at this point i have commited to myself to write everything down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want to put your husband through this kind of emotional pain that will be inside him for the rest of his life?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't. and this is exactly the reason I hesitate. I would rather carry the cross of keeping it secret than force him to carry the cross of knowing. Others would question my motive, say i am just continuing on my selfish path, but that is ok. I know what is in my heart.

On the other side of the coin for me is the idea of leaving him in a position of risk of finding out on his own, that is what will probably be my main motivation to tell him all. I hear about how much worse the pain is to find out about the A, as opposed to being told. I absolutely do not want to compound his pain by allowing that to happen.

In the end, the decision must be mine and I will take ownership of it.

i appreciate your concern and sharing your opinion with me.

BT,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">originally quoted by Blessed Time

Most of the people writing you are BS, some are WS that got found out (just a few confessed willingly) and the there is JL, a kind caring man that gives good advice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So don't you think that BS's would know how they would feel about this situation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been reading your posts and you are being pushed to confess against your will.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fl asked this question because she was confused and wanted to do the right thing. Sometimes doing the right thing isn't the easiest thing to do. And we human beings, will resist things that are uncomfortable to us, right or wrong. Just because a decision is hard, doesn't mean it is against someone's will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only YOU know your husband and your marriage so this decision HAS to be yours. It is NOT written in stone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When fl came to the forum; she was either still in contact with OM or just a few days out of ending the A. She was (and this is not a judgement of fl) still in the fog; and still pining for OM. Not really a good position to really know one's spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is what this MB teaches (radical honesty of past transgressions) but it is not agreed upon by all marriage counselors.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, but if all MCs were right on the money about how to save marriages; there would not be a 50% + divorce rate in our country. Dr. Harley himself recognized the most MC's considered his principles foreign to them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want to put your husband through this kind of emotional pain that will be inside him for the rest of his life?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one here kind of turns my crank. There is a difference between; remembering forever, that your spouse chose to have an A; vs having "this kind of emotional pain that will be inside him for the rest of his life."

I'm sorry, but if the marriage is truely getting better; the initial pain will subside in time (if the relationship is getting better). Yes, the A will be remembered; and should be remembered, so it doesn't happen again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps you could just be the best wife you can be from this day forward, REPENT, and ask for Jesus's forgiveness and never ever cheat again!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a given; no matter what choice is made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After reading this heartfelt message from a man whose wife betrayed him,(Uphill) it makes me wonder if you should tell your husband or keep it to yourself, this toxic secret?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not so sure the context of Uphill's post is the same. However, I have come to understand that most women wished their H's were more open and communicative with them. Just because we were never really taught how to do it doesn't negate their wishes. Men can be both strong and be able to express their feelings.

One more true statement BT made was that; it is your decision to make and to live with.

Trust God to carry you through. {{{{{fl}}}}}

In His arms.

S&C

S&C, thanks for your post. I think I have kept this question of to tell or not to tell open for long enough. The point is, some will believe it is manditory, some will not. In this forum, I will certainly find more that believe it is manditory.

I remember when I first found this place too. Boy you sure are right about me not being in any position to know what to do. I was a major mess. I had been a major mess for well over 2 years. I am so grateful for the support of those here and for the positive changes that have occured in my life (and that of my husband) because of that support.

We all agree on one thing. It is now up to me. I sincerly feel that i need to keep my mind open to either answer, let God guide me. Right now i am just focusing on writing it all down.

thanks for your continued prayers.

bt...I have been reading your posts and you are being pushed to confess against your will.


sufdb...This has nothing to do with will, no one, repeat NO ONE has a right to decide another persons life...fl is struggling with being an ethical human being, or a user...the rest is just details. No matter how you spin this, and it can be spun both ways, the bottom line is she is contemplating stealing the most valuable right a human being has...to decide their own life, she has no right to decieve her H for a lifetime, and that is all this is about. Her reasons not to tell are the obvious self-serving justifications every human being uses to make it "ok" to use another human being for their purposes.....her H is not to be pitied for his wife being a ws, he is to be pities cause his life is being stolen.

Aside from that, fl has not fully processed yet she will ensure the failure of her marriage, and her parenting by making the affair a permanent part of the psychology of her marriage...there is no escape, you are what you do, and what she will be is a liar.....forever. This is not about her h finding out in the future, and his anger, such hutzpah, this isn't about fl....it is about the built in estrangement that will poison everything, and emotionally damage her H...who knows he may even have an affair in the future, not even realizing why he is disconnected from his w.... What amazes me with these kinds of discussions is the notion there is some kind of escape from psychological consequences, that somehow the keeper of a secret is this tragic shakespearian heroine (or hero)...when all they really are is your garden variety narcissist with a good pr agent....hopefully fl is really a decent human being, and will do the ethical thing. That doesn't mean blurting it out, one should take a lot of care in revealing such a thing...but that is what we should be discussing...not whether to tell.

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Sufdb, how dare you come out attacking another human being with you acidic words, and accusations, it just shows that you are an angry, selfish, mean spirited person. Do you think FL needs more rocks thrown at her? The only helpful words from your post are in your last sentence:” That doesn't mean blurting it out, one should take a lot of care in revealing such a thing” and that is what we are talking to her about. FL came to the conclusion on her own, it is her life, her marriage, her family. FL came here to learn and she wants to do the right thing. That may take time, which is OK. No one should rush her or judge her. We all have fallen short, ALL, that includes sufdb too, so no one should be pointing fingers or thinking that they are somehow above someone else.

FL, do not be discouraged by Sufdb or any others that are angry, or have been hurt and they lash out at anyone that made mistakes. I am a BS and there were some secrets between me and my WS, and until all the truth came out, we only dragged it out longer and farther (years), so I have learned that it is best to come out with the whole truth, to process it together, and to learn and grow together, and also be prepared, because the situation could turn out many different ways. When you reveal your actions, you will go through the whole process: pain, grieving, hurt, loneliness, uncertainty, it will be a rollercoaster, but if you hang in there (with God’s help), you will become stronger, and you will be set free.
Your husband may want to divorce you, but that will be his choice, or he will come out stronger, and could change for the better, ( I know we both changed, and never felt closer, and we both are putting more effort in our marriage).

hurtagaintwice, that was quite a volatile, hateful reaction to someone who simply pointed out that withholding critical information about one's life is selfish, cruel and mean spirited. It is not "angry, selfish or mean spirited" to point that out, it is simply stating a truth. It is hateful to lie to someone, not hateful to point out that its hateful to lie. Nor did he accuse her of anything, she already knows what she did and is attempting to correct it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, do not be discouraged by Sufdb or any others that are angry, or have been hurt and they lash out at anyone that made mistakes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using this standard, does this mean your opinion is also illegitimate because you are "angry?" He may be as angry as a wet hen [I sure don't see any evidence of that], that doesn't mean his opinion isn't dead on right. His anger, or lack thereof, is irrelevent to the content of his opinion. It disturbs me that sometimes folks here use this "oh he is angry" accusation as an excuse to illigitimately dismiss opinions they don't like. The truth is, a person's anger, or lack thereof, does not determine the legitimacy of their opinion.

MelodyLane,
Yes I did get angry when I read sufdb response to FL. FL is trying to figure out to do the right thing, and she gets blasted. MelodyLane you don’t see Sufdb’s accusations?: “she will be is a liar.....forever” “keeper of a secret is this tragic shakespearian heroine” “ garden variety narcissist with a good pr agent”. I assumed this could only come from an angry or hurt person, which I could be wrong, because I do not know Sufdb. I agree with people writing their opinions, but not with coercion or name calling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurtagaintwice:
<strong> MelodyLane,
Yes I did get angry when I read sufdb response to FL. FL is trying to figure out to do the right thing, and she gets blasted. MelodyLane you don’t see Sufdb’s accusations?: “she will be is a liar.....forever” “keeper of a secret is this tragic shakespearian heroine” “ garden variety narcissist with a good pr agent”. I assumed this could only come from an angry or hurt person, which I could be wrong, because I do not know Sufdb. I agree with people writing their opinions, but not with coercion or name calling. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She admits she is lying, so how is that an accusation? Isn't that the point of discussion here? I don't see how that constitutes "name calling" or "coercion" to state a true fact. Why not address the CONTENT of his opinion instead of trying to dismiss it by labeling him or his opinion as uncredible?

Sufbd is a FWS, not a BS. And I would again only assert that one's anger, has nothing to do with the legitimacy of their opinion. Only the content of their opinion can determine the legitimacy.

What is getting lost here is no one is speaking up for fl H....and frankly I don't see validateing that she has any choices at all is particularly helpful to someone who is confused...she has no choices, she only has consequences. As for the narcissist comment, I didn't say she was one.... yet...but if she doesn't tell, then she is...that is what narcissists do, act in their best interest without any regard for others self-determination, I'd say stealing someones life qualifies....so if the shoe fits.....

btw, I am not angry, I don't even know fl, but I am adamant that when anyone tries to foist off self-serving behaviour as "better" for the one decieved, they be called on it. I would not be doing fl any service whatsoever trying to cajole her into healthy behavior...others are doing that, there also needs to be those who point out accountability in no uncertain terms. And there is no one, not anyone of the 30,000 + posters here who can make a credible argument it is ok to steal someone elses life...no matter what the justification...

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Sufdb,
What do you mean she has no choices? Life is all about choices, FL did not have to come to these boards, FL did not have to pour her heart out, and explain to anyone, anything. She chose to do it. She is seeking information from others who have been there, and their experiences, to help her decide on her issues. How is calling her a liar if she doesnt tell going to encourage her?
Sufdb I agree with you, every action has a reaction, and every choice has a consequence, but who are we to say what the reaction or consequence will be?
I am going to give an extreme example: You are adamant that a WS confess to BS, and lets say it happens, then the BS murders the WS. Then what do you say? The WS deserved it? This is but one example, life is complex, and no one should insist on one way or another.
FL you are not an “liar.....forever” or a “keeper of a secret is this tragic shakespearian heroine” or “a garden variety narcissist with a good pr agent”.
You are human being that made a mistake (a big one) and you need to decide what is best for you, your kids, and your family in light of that Truth usually always comes out sooner or later. We all make mistakes and strive to do what is good, but keep falling short. You do have a rough road ahead, but if you hang on, you could have the ride of your life. I am stating this from my personal experience where I forgave my WW, and have fallen in love all over again, and we both are better persons now, then we were before.

h...What do you mean she has no choices? Life is all about choices, FL did not have to come to these boards, FL did not have to pour her heart out, and explain to anyone, anything. She chose to do it. She is seeking information from others who have been there, and their experiences, to help her decide on her issues.

sufdb...We are using the word choice differently. You can choose to jump off a cliff and flap your arms to fly safely down, or take the long way and walk down the trail...those are "choices"...but not really cause one kills you. IMO choice implies consideration of actions with different, but accetable/reasonable/ethical (in this case) outcomes. Stealing someones life is not a choice, you don't do it, if you do you are a really bad person, and deserving of nothing but contempt for that "choice". You have just psychologically suicided AND "murdered" (so to speak) your spouse and kids. Yep everyone is actually alive, but the damage is extreme, and to call that a "choice" offends every sense of logic I am aware of.

h...How is calling her a liar if she doesnt tell going to encourage her?

sufdb...Shame and guilt are the two emotions we experience to avoid jumping off cliffs. Observing that she is a lying (and therefore a liar), and doing so for self-serving motivations may shame her into giving up her self-serving rationalizations....if she is a narcissist it won't...but then nothing will anyways. She may get angry, but the truth always works, on emotionally healthy people. It did me. I had absolutely no intention of telling for all the same reasons, to spare my spouse, I "knew" what the affair meant, I had learned my lesson, blah blah blah. In fact, the long term marital problems we had preceeding the affair pretty much had already ended the marriage. I could have leff the marriage with a clear conscience, and spared my w the additional turmoil. However, as I sought out understanding of what the affair meant, it became clear I had no ethical basis for concealment. I could not stay or leave the marriage without discharging my ethical obligations to reveal to my w all the circumstances of the marriage, she was entitled to know everything, irrespective on anything I wanted, or any outcome I preferred...it wasn't my decision, I had no choice, it is a principle, you just do it....or you are indeed, a user, a sociopathic personality (one who only thinks in terms of what they want).

h...Sufdb I agree with you, every action has a reaction, and every choice has a consequence, but who are we to say what the reaction or consequence will be? I am going to give an extreme example: You are adamant that a WS confess to BS, and lets say it happens, then the BS murders the WS. Then what do you say? The WS deserved it?

sufdb...I have addressed this b4, did not this time, almost did, but since you have...Yes, then you don't tell...BUT you also do not remain married, or have anything to do with such an individual. You have introduced a different element, physical survival. Normally you do not jump out of airplanes without a parachute...but sometimes you do, (because plane is on fire and going to crash at high speed, this happens occassionally in war mostly), at least twice that I have read about, people survived those events. They did not defeat gravity, they simply took the only viable option open to them. If you are married to a psychopath (the kind who murders or seriously injuresd family members), you don't stay married....you leave. There is no indication on this thread that is the situation, so it does not apply....and that is the only exception to the principle.

h...This is but one example.

sufdb...It is the only example, and it is only true because sustaining life is the first principle one obeys, so trumps all other principles. (and those who want to debate that start another thread).

h...life is complex, and no one should insist on one way or another.

sufdb...So you don't believe in principles? Indeed life is complex, that is why we seek the underlying behavioral principles so we know how to act....that is what MB is all about actually, marital principles.

h...FL you are not an “liar.....forever” or a “keeper of a secret is this tragic shakespearian heroine” or “a garden variety narcissist with a good pr agent”.

sufdb...So if you keep a lie forever, you are not a liar forever? Most crimes have a statute of limitations....murder does not, using your logic, we should just pick a number, maybe after...I dunno, 20 years you are no longer a "murderer" even if the truth comes out. Somehow I really don't think someone who has had their life stolen will agree their spouse is not a liar, no matter when they find out....what do you think? The rest was hyperbole to make a point...and I have addressed the narcissit comment...if the shoe fits

h...You are human being that made a mistake (a big one) and you need to decide what is best for you, your kids, and your family in light of that.

sufdb...I don't think she is being taken to task for a mistake, she is being taking to task for compounding the mistake into a deliberate act of lifetime aggression re her H, stealing someones life is not a "best" thing, it is a self-serving act of heinous proportion. Nor is such a choice ever best for anyone, not herself, her kids, or her H....they will all suffer, which is what consequences are all about, you cannot escape them. That alone is reason enough to be honest...but the point is it is not a CHOICE anyways, she has no right to conceal information from any human being (much less her H) that we all have a fundamental right to know, because it impacts the choices we make.....she is stealing his life.

H...Truth usually always comes out sooner or later. We all make mistakes and strive to do what is good, but keep falling short. You do have a rough road ahead, but if you hang on, you could have the ride of your life. I am stating this from my personal experience where I forgave my WW, and have fallen in love all over again, and we both are better persons now, then we were before.

sufdb...That's fine, and I realize you (and others) are attempting to persuade her to do the right thing, the healthy thing. But in so doing you are also enabling her to think she actually has a choice. This gives her the wiggle room to think she "knows" better....if she is a borderline narcissist, she will use the wiggle room to avoid doing the right thing.....My purpose (already accomplished, and judgeing by her reactions to me, and melody, we have it pegged pretty accurately), is to hold her toes to the fire and if there is any chance she can fight off her naricssitic leanings, being firm is what she needs. So, whatever, she has all the viewpoints, IMO that is a good thing....whatever she does, and whatever happens in the future, she will never be able to claim she didn't know what to do, the issue has been fully aired...and yes, it is to her credit she is trying to sort this out....it is not to her credit she thinks (if she still does) she has choices, and that her situation is somehow exempt from the rules...and further I am really disturbed by her focus on herself, and the consequences to herself (ie losing the marriage, living with her H upset, being thought poorly of, etc.)....and not focused on her H right to own his own life.