I feel the need to say something. I am a WS... well, I guess I would be called a FWS. I have been shocked lately at some of the things that I have read on this forum.
I know that there are many hurting BSs out there. I realize that they are hurting - and they are hurting beyond what I can comprehend, because I have never been in that position. I have been shocked, however, to see some of cruel generalizations that are posted on these boards in the recent past.
I have read things about "anyone who cheats on their spouse or with someone else's spouse needs a step ladder to reach the curb" and is "less than worthy of a kick in the a$$". These are just a few examples, and I don't feel like going back to find the others that I have read lately, but they involve words like "slut" and "scum of the earth", etc.
I want to make my marriage work. My husband and I are working very hard at it. I have come to these boards from the very beginning for support and wisdom. I have been "hit over the head with a 2X4" a few times, as I have posted things while in a fog and trying to rationalize selfish behaviors. It hurt to be hit over the head like that, but I know that it was done out of concern and trying to knock some sense into me. I don't mind those sort of responses, I appreciate them.
There are certain things that hold true for most marriages that deal with A's, and that sort of thing needs to be shared - things that have to do with this program... helpful things. I see nothing helpful, however, in generalizations and cruelty. In fact, it is hurtful. When I read things like that, it makes me question whether I should come here anymore. I have been seeing posts like these more and more frequently.
I am not a second or third class citizen, I am not the scum of the earth. I made huge mistakes, I am ashamed and horrified, I am working to turn things around, and have asked forgiveness of my husband and my God.
I guess that in a nutshell, I would just ask that if people have negative or derogatory things to say about WS's - please at least stick to putting down your own spouse, not all WS's in general.
thank you.
CW

You are not the scum of the earth.

YOu should report posts in which there are personal attacks such as those specifically noted...

without hesitation...

you should feel this is a 'safe' place to process through this..
just wear your helmit when the 2x4's come out...when the reationalization becomes deep... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am sorry you have seen this lately...
ARK

captain's wife...

I agree w/your post. I have noticed it too. Many people from each side of the coin come here for support and solace, and many people are in anguishing pain as a result of their own, or their spouses actions.

It would seem that in order for these boards to be best used for what they were designed, the terms spelled out in the acronyms should be sufficient without more graphic, less "adult" substitutions.

Thanks for bringing it up!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by captain's wife:
<strong> I see nothing helpful, however, in generalizations ........ if people have negative or derogatory things to say about WS's - please at least stick to putting down your own spouse, not all WS's in general. CW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to agree, CW.

This board is fantastic in so many ways, but it's still full of very hurt people with real-life problems and pain. Sometimes venting about a personal situation gets out of hand and spills over into the maligning ALL past, present and future WS's, not to mention OP. The BS part of me understands where that bitterness is coming from. The Recovered BS part of me understands that it's not healthy or productive...but healing from infidelity is a process. Having patience and grace when you're offended is hard.

I don't take the negative generalities personally -- I'm also a former WS (But I'm not the scum of the earth, either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). I try to keep it all in perspective. I know ME. I know I'm changed, repentant and forgiven. And my H knows it. That's what really matters.

Your post may help some posters remember that there are people on MB from all sides of adultery looking for healing. May help, may not. It all goes back to the premise that you can't control anyone's actions/reactions but your own.

I'm glad you're here, CW....tho I'm sorry you're here.

Lori

CW,

One thing YOU need to remember. This is often the ONLY place someone in deep pain can come and VENT. My advice to you is this: if it is a general comment, it is NOT about you. Ignore it. People vent and they should, often they don't express adequately what they feel and frequently they don't consult with lawyers so that the wordsmithing is as specific as it could be. BUT...you need to remember if it is not addressed to you, it is NOT about you.

Oh, and if you think there is something you could have done to hurt your H worse, why don't ask what it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You will find that as people post here for awhile, the GRAND pronouncements start to fade. The all encompassing statements tend to go away. The posts become more specific, the questions clearer, the focus better. CW this is a process and it must start somewhere, and for many it starts with a vent. Not a politically correct vent either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interestingly, it is the presence of both BS and WS that starts to change the perspective. AS a BS gets help and guidance from a WS, they begin to see the other side. They sense the pain on the other side. The same olds true for a WS. Most of the advice and help you will get here will be from those that are in your H's shoes. YET...many came here with an extreme dislike for the infidelity and those that committed it.

Interesting how it works. I would strongly recommend that you track the evolution of the posts of the people you find so offensive. You will see them change. Heck, you might even want to help them. Many are here to help you.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

thank you all for the responses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I really do know that I shouldn't take these things personally... but that's always a bit easier said than done for me. I especially wouldn't want someone who is brand new here to read something hurtful and never come back.
Ark - I never noticed that little whistle guy down there before! LOL guess I'm not as observant as I thought...

*hugs for everyone!*

CW

Oh, and if you think there is something you could have done to hurt your H worse, why don't ask what it is.

JL -
I'm not sure what you meant by that...?

you do make a good point, though... I don't want people to feel like they can't vent, either.

CW

Hi captian's wife,

I have to say I'm sorry if you have felt offended.I personally haven't seen as much negativity to WS's as I have seen to the OM/OW.But like JL mentioned it is usually just venting and for some reason using certain words makes it more....Meaningful?

For example,in the beginning of my ordeal back in October,the word "homewrecker"(for OW) popped in to my head when I found out about the A.It seemed to fit like a glove.Normally I don't say a bad word about anyone but I was SO angry and hurt,saying something like ,"I hate that LADY" just didn't cut it! I'm sure there have been "worse" things said about people but the generalization I see is that BS's are so upset that these words somehow help to get that frustration out and in time,you tend not to see so much of it as tempers cool.

I do agree though that personal attacks of any kind are not appropriate here since this is a very reliable,professional,caring site devoted to helping those dealing with Infidelity.Newbies are always welcomed whether they be WS or BS.We all try our best to curb our judgements and provide sound and caring advice.I commend you on trying to make your marriage a better one.That is what most,if not all,BS's would like to have a chance with.

Take care.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Captain's Wife,
I just thought I would give you a "lift". My father, who I love and adore and has been the world's best dad, had some kind of affair or entanglement when I was around 16. It wasn't very well known, not even my brother (who was 12 at the time) knew about it. But I knew. My parents worked through it and are still married today. And very happy at that. I wasn't witness to any kind of drama, etc. I spoke to my mother about only once. So I don't know the specifics of how they handled it. (They kept it private)

I knew she was in a lot of pain, etc., but she never shared any of that with me. Afterward, I knew my father was too. Sure, I was angry at him for a period, but I KNEW what kind of man he was. Yes, he did something bad. But he and my mother are amazing people. He is the very last person I would refer to as "Scum of the Earth," etc. He is caring, loving, generous, and yes, even honest -- all these things and more. My mother would be the first to object if anyone said an unkind word about my father.

In general, the language used to describe people who have cheated is terrifying -- as if everyone who has ever done so belongs in one category of morally deficient sub-human beings.

And even though I know what I've written about my father is true, and in conflict to what I read about cheater, I've cried while reading many posts. I have found myself wracked with guilt over something that happened before I was married or engaged, but in a committed relationship with my now husband (I was drunk and "made out" (kissing only) someone I barely knew. It was completely and totally out of character and I never told my husband until a few months ago - after 5.5 years of marriage. He's completely fine and says I shouldn't worry about it, etc., but I've been struggling with guilt largely because of things I've read about "character deficient, horrible people" such as myself who one should basically run not walk away from.) Even though I know these descriptions don't apply to my father, could they really describe me? Because with the exception of that one episode, I've never hidden anything from my husband (or boyfriend).

Anyway, the first point of this (which is quickly getting lost) is to say I understand where you're coming from. The second point was to encourage you by making the reference to my father - a wonderful person (like you) who got lost for a short while and made a terrible mistake (like you).

I hope this encourages you.

Bravo, CW - You're quite correct that you are not scum of the earth.

Now the real trick is making yourself believe that. We WS's are so sensitive to those characterizations because we wonder to ourselves if we really ARE scum of the earth. We FEAR that we may really be scum of the earth.

It was Pepperband that got me to see that many of my negative responses here were because of something I feared inside myself and NOT because I somehow felt unjustly accused - I was AFRAID that they were right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Recently, good IC has helped me realize that it's the guy in the mirror looking back at me that matters. If I can find peace with him, everything else is cake! That doesn't mean my relationships will be perfect or even that my marriage will work out. But it does mean that I can see people who call me 'the scum of the earth' as people with their own issues who need me to extend them grace while they work through them.

BTW, I know what what you're saying about the 2x4s. I've been hit with a couple of unhelpful ones as well. But there's some good stuff in there too.

JL, oh sage one...you're correct that people in deep pain come here to post...and some of them happen to be WSs. We come here looking for a way heal and are often met with the anger that the BS WISHES they could direct at their own WS. We are easy and anonymous targets. It is discouraging and often reinforces our internal fear that we truly are scum of the earth. This is why I'm beginning to think that there needs to be a forum where the WS can post what they truly think and feel without fear of flame.

Are you listening, Steve?

Low

I feel the need to comment. I am a BS and have only been posting for about a month. I have never slammed any of you WS's on this board. I may have slammed my individual WS a few times. I'm not sure. I don't think of him as the "scum of the earth", but at times I am so overwhelmed by the pain he has inflicted on us and me I'm sure some choice words have entered my head. Most of the time I have not directed them at him.

This MB site has been a godsend to me. And the venting has been a huge part of it. If I didn't have this place to vent maybe I'd be LBing my H all over the place. The other day someone started a post about how we feel about the OP. I felt the need to vent there. I'm not going to apologize. An affair brings the BS to his/her knees. I haven't slept through the night in months. I lost almost 10 lbs. in 3 weeks. I am taking an AD and sleep meds now, and I'm still waking up after 3 hrs. Posting my feelings about the OW keeps me from calling her up and being a jerk myself. I'm better than that.

So please, don't tell me that I can't at times come here and express my anger or my pain. It keeps me from throwing in the towel. And sometimes I have to just express it by using the words I need to use. It isn't against any of you. In fact, I appreciate any of the WS's viewpoints. It helps me understand my H better. However, please don't ask me to forgive the OW right now. I'm not ready. It's taking all my effort to just forgive my H. OK, I hope it was Ok that I just vented.

CW,

What I meant by that line is that your H has probably NEVER been in such emotional pain. If he came here and vented that pain, he just might not be very controlled...for awhile. That is all. I was interrupted in the middle of the post and did a poor job of explaining myself. I am sorry.

LowOrbit, you are probably right some WS's do come and get blasted for something THEY had no part in because they were a target of opportunity. I wish I could offer a solution. But, I have observed that the serious one stuggled through it, and often ended up with a very supportive discourse with the very same person that blasted them. It is part of the process on all sides.

I don't think a separate section would be of help. IF it was accesible to everyone then the blasting would still occur, and if it were not, then the other side would never get heard. But, it is not my site, so perhaps SH might decide that is a good idea.

One thing for sure the site tends to oscillate back and forth with regard to posters and the level of tension and tolerance that exists here. I don't know how one could control that.

CW, I am sorry you feel the way you do. But, I do think Pep's words to LowOrbit might of use to consider.

God Bless,

JL

Wow... it always amazes me how I start out posting about one thing, and I end up learning something totally different (or at least something that I didn't expect)!

O -
yes, I can see how using harsher words than normal could help to release some of the pressure and anger that a BS feels... I guess I might be especially sensitive to those things. Another yes to your observation that the OW/OM gets more anger spewed at them than the WS around here... I guess that maybe that's one of the reasons that it gets to me, though... I am an OW to the W of the OM in my A, as well as the WW of my H (did you catch that?). She (OM's W) has actually told me that she has forgiven me (we used to be friends)... but I'm not sure that I have forgiven myself... which brings me to a couple of other responses to my post that were particularly insightful...

Alegna-
Thank you for the encouragement. I do hope that my daughter will feel that same way about me one day that you do about your father. I was very close to her (she's 19)... and she knows about my A... I felt that I needed to tell her... and after a week or two, she started talking to me again, but I still see a twinge of something in her eyes at times. I sometimes wonder if that will ever go away. It means alot to hear you say that, though, and to have you say that I am not scum, just like he is not scum. May I also point out to you, however, that YOU are not scum either?! *hug* You made a mistake, but you are a wonderful person!
You are also right in that a part of me does wonder if they could be right when people say things about WS's... I have to always stop and think... and decide whether what they have said is true about me or not... and sometimes it takes a bit of convincing on my part to believe that I am not all of those things.

Low-
you're right... thank you for the reminder. It's not really important what other people think, anyway! I mean... I need to listen to good advice, of course - but otherwise all that matters is what my God thinks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I, too, have been going to IC... and I managed to forget already that she and I had talked about how I haven't totally forgiven myself for what I did... for all of the pain that I caused to my H, the OM, his W, my D, etc. That's one of the reasons that I'm so very sensitive. Thanks for reminding me... I need to work on me.
A separate forum sounds good in certain ways... but at the same time, there are many good things that I learn from the BS's here. If I didn't have BS with a 2X4 in hand once in a while, well, I might be tempted to just wallow in my own self-pity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

CV55-
I would never ask that you not vent! I'm glad that you can come here and vent, just as I can. I'm also definitely not saying that you need to forgive OW right now. I guess I just wasn't appreciating feeling like I had been lumped in with someone's anger at their WS or OW/OM by the generalized comments about 'ANYONE who cheats on their spouse' and things like that. By all means - please vent!

JL -
I forgive you for being interrupted when you posted earlier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I know that you're right - I guess that I didn't say that very well in my first post, either! I was trying to say that I know that a BS (including my H)is in more pain than almost anything else could cause. More pain than I can even imagine. I hate that I caused my H that much pain. He does post here on the forums... and he can be rather blunt. He directs his anger and hurt toward me, though, and I know that I caused it, so I accept it. I don't necessarily like it, but I accept it as being something that I caused.
I notice that you said that the site does ebb and flow with tension and tolerance... I guess that I haven't been here long enough to see it flow the other way yet. I will look forward to seeing that come about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for your insights...

CW

CW,

Just remember one thing about your H's anger. Anger is a secondary emotion and it is driven by primary emotions: pain, grief, loss, etc. So when he starts to show you his anger, enquire of him what is driving it. Is it the pain? Is it the loss? What is it? As you two discuss this, you will see a change in him, AND you will learn somethings as well.

The next thing you need to do is establish boundaries for your H and to protect you. He needs to voice his feelings, but there needs to be a boundary. You did NOT give up your rights as a human being when you had the affair, and frankly he will respect you more if you do respect yourself.

By the way, who is your H? You don't have to tell, but it is often handy to know who is paired with who, so that the responses can be consistent. It also means one has more of a two sided picture so the response can be better reasoned.

As for the forum swinging, it may swing either way from where it is now. I've been reading here over 5 years and posting for 4.5 years. So there have been plenty of changes including going to different topic sites. It all used to be one site.

In any event, focus on you. Take what you need to heal and leave the rest. I truely do hope that your D fully heals from this, but I suspect it will strongly influence her romantic choices and behavior.

God Bless,

JL

Don't let Low Orbit fool you! I'm such a meanie ....

LOL!

One thing that struck me is your D-Date... You're D-date is still written in wet paint my dear.

If you had already forgiven yourself I'd wonder if you were living in the real world.

It's actually a PLUS that you have not forgiven yourself this early.

Relax. You've just begun this recovery. I would expect you to feel a healthy guilt for the next 2 years on one level or another (depending on circumstances).

It hurts like hell to be told the truth about yourself if it is not pretty. But, if the truth is ignored, how can you ever forgive yourself.

"Scum of the earth" is hyperbole... totally ignorable. Ignore it.

This is the truth, and impossible to ignore, and must be processed by your tender little heart...

You are not the scum of the earth, you are an adulteress.

Not a comfey thought, is it?

But, as you feel the pang of reading this fact in black and white ... knowing it's true about yourself, please know this .... you are a former WS, a remorseful WS, and woman with a load of hurt and not enough hours in the day to make it all go away.

Relax.

There will be perspective.
There will be spiritual grace.
There will be redemption.
There will be glory as a wife again.

But, relax.... forgiving yourself too soon is not a good thing.

You are loved as imperfect and flawed .... welcome to the club.

Pep

This is slow stuff.

cw I am bs,d-day 3 yrs ago. You are not scum of the earth. The ow that had affair with my husband is not scum of the earth. You will definitely learn alot of useful, helpful things here on this board, but as previously said, alot of bs are hurting so badly and in the anger stage that they may not realize that what they're saying is hurtful to others at the moment of venting. When I say anger stage, I mean it's ANGER. It has been said before in the past to other readers, if you see a venting post with harsh words, stay away from it. Don't read it. I have had to do the same at times. I also don't agree with any intentional personal attack. I think you will find that the majority here will support you. BS do support ws that have realized their mistake and are trying to rebuild. I certainly am one of those bs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One more thing,

While I understand the point many BSs have tried to make in that it is important for WSs to be able to face the pain they've caused, I think for many it is equally important that they understand that they are good, decent individuals. (I realize it's dangerous to generalize, and that there are many WSs who could care less about any others' feelings than their own, that seems not the case for those who post here. After all, if they had no conscience, why would they bother searching out this site anyway?)

Chances are, the WS already feels disgusted with him/herself, and is questioning everything about him/herself. They too are hurting and need assurance that what they worst fear (you are scum, etc.) is not true. Everyone says this site is not only about healing marriages, but healing individuals. For those of us with a conscience, we need to know deep down that we are good. This is part of what gives us strength to continue.

I'm working and in a hurry -- so I hope this makes sense. Hugs to you too CW. And if you've always been close to your daughter, like I have been with my father, then just give her time. She knows who you are.

Dear Captins Wife.

I am sorry that you felt the need to defend yourself in connection with my posting. Just for the record this was the original post I was responding to:

It has been almost 4 years and multiple Ddays since recovery started. I beleive now there has been no contact for the last year. Still feel the OWs "Venus" status lingers in Hs mind. I get the feeling H is constantly comparing me to her. OW never showed to him a true person and he believes she was perfect. In reality a comparison of me to her on all points would not be overbalanced one side to another except that my moral standards appear higher than hers.
Does this reverence ever fade without a reality check with the OW and the real side of her personality?
Can a WH really give all of himself back to his W after an affair where WH held the OW in such high esteem and where for him nothing has disputed that fact?

My response was the following:

Thought I would put my 2 cents in here. First in your own mind you have to accept the fact that while in comparison you may think she has "Venus" status, in reality anyone else but you or the WS would consider her less than worthy of a kick in the a$$. Anyone who cheats on their S or with someone eles spouse has not only fallen off the throne, but needs a step ladder to reach the curb. If she really was that great then he would be there with her now, or at the very least chasing her again. I know that it's difficult to understand but he has chosen you, and while he may still have a fantasy about her, he has made a choice. Consider yourself the one with the ring and the power.

The point of my post was to try and help the BS to put things into perspective for herself. Yes I do believe that she is correct when she states that she has higher moral standards than the OW, I'm sorry if this hurts but it is what I truly believe. My description may not be pretty of her falling of her throne, but I think it provides an easily identifiable analogy that may have been beneficial to the BS. Also, most people view affairs and their particpants with a lack of disdain, therefore I don't believe I was too far off in stating most people would feel them not worthy of a kick in the a$$. Again I'm sorry if this hurts you but again IMHO, in general I do believe it to be true. Finally, I also want you to note that I was trying to be positive in stating that her husband has chosen to be with her, therefore while there still may be a fantasy view involved on his side, his reality has kicked in (as I'm sure yours did as well) and he has chosen to stay with her, therefore she still has the ring and the power.

For the record I never called anyone scum, sl>t or anything else. However after reading some of the posts, and looking at the dictionary, both words are fairly accurate descriptions that some people may use to describe any of the participants in an A. I know they are hard to read, and may not be applicable to you now, after the A, however during that time they may well be appropriate descriptions of your behaviour. It's never very nice to see these words applied to you in black or white, but they do describe some individuals during this time period and I don't feel that you should judge how a BS views the particpants. I'm sure you would never consider yourself now to be a lier, cheater, adulterous, promiscous or any other number of words that could be used to describe your actions at the time, but again they could be all accruate descriptive words. I've accepted the fact that my wife was all these things during her A, and actually much more. Is she now, I truly believe not but that does not change her past.

Again, I apologize if you were offended by my comments, they were in no way directed to you as an idividual, but as everyone on this board will tell you you can't change the past, nor the words used to describe the particpants.

Hopefully, it hepled the person who originally posted to develop a different view of the OW, and how her husbands actions are now speaking greater than his word.

Best of Luck on your road to recovery.

Summer -
yes, I did realize what your original intentions were, and I also hope that you were successful in helping the BS that you were responding to in your post.
Thank you for clarifying your true feelings, and for the good wishes on my road to recovery.
CW