I actually was seeing some bizarre humour in this situation until you all just freaked me out. Concerning Plan B, I thought that was the step you take if the WS won't give up OP? Even though it's been hell having her continue working for a month H did the following: Always had someone at work so they wouldn't be alone. Even asked me to come in so he could send her home. Called me often. Literally spent all extra time with me. And we did lots of talking and were affectionate. Yeh, some of the talking about her was painful to hear, but I didn't want more secrets.

Now in saying that, I'm not stupid. In an odd way there was a certain sense of safety knowing where she and he were every day, and knowing they weren't alone. He told me within a week of admitting the EA he was committed to our marriage and family and proved it by firing her, which was monumental for him. Not just because of his feelings, but because she ran his office. That was my ultimatum and he did it. If he hadn't of fired her we would be in Plan B. So again, I'm not sure why I would plan B him at this point. Isn't withdrawal part of the process? He just said goodbye yesterday. We have also talked how it will be a good thing when she is gone because we can begin to heal. I also had him take the responsibility of setting up MC.

I'm not happy with the way he reacted. I think part of it was he wanted to keep her there so she could finish training his sister. Of course not all of it. He was in pure panic mode. He told me last week I scare him. I couldn't figure that one out. He said he likes seeing the vulnerable side to me. Believe me, I'd love to show that side more often. However, I am strong and assertive also. Looking at OW yesterday I had the following thought. If H wants weak and vulnerable he sure found his match.

So now I'm confused. Even Harley said separation is risky, so why would I take that step now? Concerning further contact with her. Should I ask him every day if he talked to her? Make him show me his cell phone bills? Should I allow him to talk about his withdrawal feelings so he doesn't keep secrets from me? At the moment he is working so hard with her and partner gone I don't know when they'd even see each other.

As far as telling her parents, I haven't. I've heard they are nice people. Probably why she doesn't want them to know. I realized today I should have told her if she continues contact they will be contacted. I didn't think of it, and I don't want to talk to her again.

Finally, H doesn't want to write NC letter because he doesn't want anything in writing for legal reasons. I understand that. I suggested we talk to her together. He couldn't deal with that, and I obviously talked alone. I suggested he call her with me in the room and tell her about NC. He said he did tell her all of this when he fired her. Of course I wasn't there. We had the NC conversation about a week ago and I decided to chill out for a while and maybe talk to shrink about it.

I know I hit you all with lots of questions. Would appreciate responses when you are able to respond. Also, he came home not that angry. Just very tired and overwhelmed. Thanks All!

cv55

"and he came home not angry, just tired and overwhelmed"

As are you both. Just to further what I stated earlier, IMHO you are on the right track.

Although Plan A is designed to end the A, and that has taken place, I'd still refer to the principles and keep it in place from the standpoint of avoiding LB's at all costs, as well as DJ's. Employ the POJA as best you can, and keep all conversations safe for both of you. If one goes awry, refer to SAA for the "rules" of safe conversation, and inform WH that they will be adhered to for the protection of both of you. Anger and/or resentment, and harsh words will not further your cause.

You will be weaning from Plan A, and during this time you will need to be vigilant as to whether they maintain NC. But don't ask him every day, rather ease him into the concept of Radical Honesty and see if he's willing to inform you if contact takes place.

He should be willing to give you access to phone bills, e-mail passwords and all that, and change e-mail addresses and phone numbers would be great. But don't push too hard on that right now, continue to let this past weekend's events cool a bit more.

The agreement to see an MC is great, and the fact that he didn't come home hostile is positive from my humble POV. That coupled with the fact that he DID dismiss the OW from work. Just remember he will NOT wake up a NEW man tomorrow.

Explain to him that you want him to know that he may come to you and discuss anything, including how he is feeling about withdrawal, or any other emotions he'd feel comfortable to share with you, but NEVER LB when he shares his feelings. He may tell you very painful things, about how he felt for her, what they did together. Express yourself without DJ's,as well.

You will need to wean from Plan A somewhat, so as not to become a doormat, and think how you will react if you find there is additional contact. Read other posts and to how others are handling that and post here to get advice. Withdrawal is so strong it can manifest itself physically. It sounds like he will be so busy running the business, it may allow him less time to think, or react to feelings of withdrawal.

It it's practical, you might offer some assistance to him with the business, so you can spend productive time with him, but not in a way that you are discussing the relationship. That would show immense support.

I think you've made tremendous progress here, but I'm certainly not qualifed to counsel. These are my observations and suggestions. Protect yourself, stay strong, and keep up the good work.

SD

CV55,

I also see no cause here for Plan B. Your marriage is proceeding just as it should proceed. His contact has ended with the OW at work and now he will be going through the inevitable withdrawal. Plan B, as you noted, is for cases where the WS won't end contact. That is not the case with you. [hopefully]

I would simply focus on doing a darn good Plan A right now and trying to figure out what his needs are. It is also important to find out what has happened to make him vulnerable to an affair? What are his top needs?

You say you are "strong and assertive." Do you run over him, try to undermine him? Do you treat him with admiration and respect? I am also strong and assertive and I have destroyed 2 marriages so far by emasculating my husbands. They are both remarried to women who ADMIRE and RESPECT them. It took me awhile to learn that lesson and learn to meet that need in my H. [new H]

My point is that this is something you might want to look at if you are very assertive like me. It will be critical that y'all start meeting each others needs so this doesn't happen again.

In the meantime, please close a CLOSE EYE on his activities to ensure that contact does not take place. I have learned to NEVER EVER blindly trust again and you especially should not trust him until he has reproven himself. It will take some time.

And, if you find out that contact has resumed, you always have the option of meeting with her parents and outing her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong> Concerning further contact with her. Should I ask him every day if he talked to her? Make him show me his cell phone bills? Should I allow him to talk about his withdrawal feelings so he doesn't keep secrets from me? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I wouldn't want to HEAR about my spouse's feelings of withdrawal and I don't know what good it would serve except to hurt you.

I would expect him to open up all aspects of his life to you, ie: cell phone passwords, computer passwords, email passwords, etc. I wouldn't ask him about contact with OW every day, but I would make it clear that you expect him to be honest if it happens. And he should also check in with you several times a day so you can chat and so you always know his whereabouts.

And in the meantime, find ways to quietly snoop on him to VERIFY no contact.

UPDATE: Forget what I said about him not being angry at me. Oh he's angry! I found that out this morning.

He was civil to me last night, but I could feel the distance. Since I talked to OW there is zero affection. No more kissing before we leave each other, no more hugs, and forget about the holding in bed. This morning when I went downstairs and said "good morning" I could feel the coldness. I said something like, "So are you now going to emotionally divorce me again? Because I haven't gone through everything I have gone through, to deal with that again." I'm sorry, I couldn't not talk. Part of our marriage problems is his refusal to deal with conflict of any kind, and then he withdraws, but the bad feelings are still there.

He then let loose on me. How could I have come to his place of business to talk to OW? (As I mentioned he is a funeral director) How could I have done that while he was waiting for 2 families to come in and the security guy was in the building? How could I have done that the day he had to say goodbye to partner and OW? How could I do that in front of his sister? I am so selfish. I do whatever I want and don't regard his feelings. What I did has made his love bank go totally dry and HE doesn't know if he can ever fill it again.

I said in reply, "For 9 months I have gone through hell. During one of the most difficult times in my life. (meaning all the deaths and sickness that occurred) And I have a 30 to 40 minute conversation with OW in order to heal myself, and your love bank is dry? The only reason it was so difficult is because you kept trying to stop the conversation." I told him if he wanted to go back to her, go for it. he said, "I am not going back to her." In my mind that would be the perfect karma for the both of them.

At this particular moment I would love to Plan B him right out of this planet. Oh, and he also blackmailed me. I told him his sister was very disappointed in the way he treated me to show him there is a different perspective on me talking to OW. There is some unfinished business that his sister and I have from the past, that had an effect on our marriage. He threatened to tell her about that. My reply, "I haven't told one member of my immediate family what you have done in order to preserve your relationships with them. And you want to undermine one of the few relationships in my life now that is offering support?" He then backed down. What I did is e-mail his sister as soon as he left for work and explained his threat. Told her if she's up for the challenge I'd like to talk to her about his blackmail. We'll see what she says.

Our conversation was so heated that I was afraid 17 yr. old son might hear. I asked H to go to the basement, and we finally just stopped. He suggested I come to his business when he is done working today so we can be alone. When he left for work he very coldly said he doesn't want to talk to me there. Maybe we can talk about it in therapy or another time.

I feel so angry my hands are shaking. I basically told him during our conversation to accept the consequences of "His Actions." How much more of this crap do I need to endure? At this moment if he is the big prize I'm going through this S&*T for, it's more like the booby prize.

OK, I'm somewhat cooled off. MBers, Heeeeellllppp!
Should we just not converse until our session on Tuesday? I can not believe he is taking the victim stance. WOW! I really am amazed! OK, somebody slap some major sense into me! I am looking at you men on here who have retained your integrity. I'm thinking, "OK, there are people out there who don't have affairs when life isn't perfect. There are people who respect there marriage vows. Why not dump this ##s and hopefully find somebody like that?" RedHat, are you feeling kind of lucky right now to be out of the drama?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong>RedHat, are you feeling kind of lucky right now to be out of the drama? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If someone told me that I could go back in time and the only change that is no A but I would get my M back the way it was. I would choose the painful path.

For me, it is time to find someone who would cherish, care and protect my best. I have no regret. I don't feel lucky but I feel content and happy. I know I will have a fullfiling M w/ my next mate. I would make sure that we will be in-love and stay in-love.

The only reason I suggest you to go plan B, even against most of MB vets suggestion is you. I am have no question that you will slavage this M but at what cost ?. IMVHO. Resentment of yours will overshadow your recovery. Yes, plan B is risky but if continuing plan A would cause even greater damage in the future you have to think and make decision. In the perfect MB world ... you would plan A your guts out and fillin his ENs and he would feel soo loved that he will snapped out from his fog, repent, and ammend you. Do you think WH could do that ? (look at his past behavior before A, do you think he is capable of such thing ?). what % chance?.

IMVHO. The minimum you should do "tough love", ... I love you, I beleive we could have happy M if you are willing, however I won't take your crap. Until then I will stay within my boundry and let you come over and prove that you want this M.

-have the talk about this, even write it down
-don't meet his ENs
-don't LB either
-let him meet yours
-let him ammends you

Just my 2¢. -rh-

cv55

Everything he said and every emotion that he expressed is all fog based. He is absolutely following the path of a fog bound WS.

He does not have one thought in his head right now, that isn't ALL ABOUT HIM. You hardly exist in his thoughts.

He is thinking of HIS loss, HIS pain, HIS guilt, and all of this really has nothing to do with you. That's how strong the fog is.

For weeks his actions have been disrespectful. Now at the moment of crisis, the disrespect jumps off the chart. This will pass.

Someone with their feet planted firmly on the ground has to be "in charge". That's you! Big crises this morning... some LB's, some DJ's? Yeah. Fatal errors? No.

Remember, this is not your H. It's someone you used to know, but you do not know him in this fog. He does not even know himself.

Only you know how much you can take. So you need to be in control of what happens next. Establish ground rules for conversations in the future, so what happened this morning doesn't happen again. Simply express your own feelings, and excuse yourself from the conversation, and tell him it may continue when you are both in control of your emotions.

The LB's and DJ's are counterproductive, and you don't want to make him have second thoughts about his committment to MC.

Read more about the Fog. Understand that what he is saying in anger is driven from his own pain, loss, fear and guilt. He is clueless as to how you feel right now, and doesn't care. His own pain is too much to bear. Deep down inside, in his old self, he knows he hurt you deeply, but he has no idea how to deal with it. This, too, will take time.

Remember, you are in control, because you know what's going on inside both of your hearts. He does not. Keep all dialogs calm, and get to the MC for professional help.

Still pulling for you!

SD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong>

OK, I'm somewhat cooled off. MBers, Heeeeellllppp!
Should we just not converse until our session on Tuesday? I can not believe he is taking the victim stance. WOW! I really am amazed! OK, somebody slap some major sense into me!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you.....are....playing....with.....FIRE! You have a WS who is in the depths of WITHDRAWAL and you are fighting with an INSANE man. Of course he thinks he is the "victim." He is crazy right now. Don't argue with him. Everytime you argue you just force him to defend himself and the OW. Is that what you want? As long as he is defending himself he will NEVER see that YOU are the victim because he feels victimized.

As much as it kills you, you are going to have to back off. Stop fighting, stop lovebusting, stop trying to be right. You are only hurting your position by doing so and making the OW look ATTRACTIVE.

Right now you cannot reason with him. You cannot reason with someone in the midst of withdrawal. You are not going to get any love bank deposits right now, so just get used to that fact. BACK OFF and let him recover. THEN, once he recovers, he will have something to GIVE. Until then, the man has nothing to give and pushing and fighting with him only harms YOU. IT DOESN'T HELP YOU IN ANY WAY!

I know you are furious and have every right to be, but please don't harm your position by taking it out on him, it will do no good. Come here and vent to US.

Remember, everytime you fight with him you are helping the OW. This is supposed to be the HELP CV55 program, not the HELP the HO-BAG program!

Thanks RH and SD for commenting so quickly. I REALLY don't know what I'd do without you and the others on this site. And for the record, I welcome all responses from WSs who are not in a fog state and are recovered. Maybe you can help me understand this alien creature I have been living with for months and months now.

RH, just so you know, I will not stay married to this man at all costs. I deserve better than that. My children have had such loss at an early age. I don't want them to experience this loss too. But I won't live through that loneliness again. I know I can't do that ever again. In December, a month before he began telling me the truth, I was making my decision to leave him. I knew I had done everything I could, and he was doing nothing. I think in his gut he knew he needed to start talking to me. I still would rather be here, than where I was before the truth.

SD, intellectually I know H is doing total bullcrap fog talk. However, looking at him today, there was such an ugliness about him. I could actually see how people can get vindictive during a D just for spite, and to justify there own behavior. I never thought of him as a man who would do that, but I never thought he would have an A either.

I realize that on Friday when I talked to OW it might not have been so much about me ambushing her, but H feeling like I ambushed him. I told him this morning I would have liked to have asked to talk to her at the end of the day, but I knew he would block that. Which is why I did what I did.

You both helped me. I read the book "After the Affair." If I'm remembering correctly, it said the WS is responsible for much of the healing process of the BS. Up until this point I have been the clear thinker who has supported him through the hell he created. Up until this point he really has shown tremendous remorse. The first 3 weeks of A being revealed the insights he was having were incredible. Reading "ATA" himself he told me it scared him because he thought he might have narcisstic tendencies. When we were in therapy in the late 90s the therapist had said that to him. Finally, because of the A, he got that. We ended up in MC the last time because he was on interfuron to treat Hep C. The interfuron caused a deep depression, which was untreated. He emotionally divorced me for months and withdrew into his classical guitar. That was the OW then. I literally hated his guitar. Once again I stuck by him through his crisis. He realizes this is a pattern of his to withdraw from me. But now the insights have stopped and it's me that's the problem, not him.

I told him sometime within the past few weeks that I have been easy on him because of all his turmoil at work. Having to hire someone to replace partner and OW, which he still hasn't found OW's replacement. However, at some point he will need to start kicking in here. He has to start filling my friggin love bank. If that isn't possible with this man then I will need to move on. Thanks all!

CV55, have you read any of my responses? I am starting to feel like I am merely cluttering up your thread here and won't intrude anymore if that is the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JazzeyGirl:
<strong>RedHat, do you think it would be wise to wait a few days until starting plan B or are you suggesting immediate plan B?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It takes several days to write PBL and get the logistic going anyway. You never rush plan B, it is a huge decision.

Yes, WH is in withdrawal but it doesn't mean that BS has to take the crap specially when she can't take it. It is better to separate and negotiate at the level playing field than hurting the chances of complete recovery. In this case BS is already at the end of the rope ... make her stay to plan A might back fire and drained the LU$ in no time.

Just my 2¢. -rh-

MelodyLane... don't you run off...I know you've been posting here much longer than I, and are much better qualified to give good solid advice. I *semi-hijacked* the "nice outside today thread" and untentionally slighted you by not listing your "name". For that I apologize.

You tell it like it is, and said it in stronger words, which are appropriate for what CV55 is going through. Stay right here, as your post are educating me, too!!!

CV55... you sound much better now. Amazing when the rage clears, how much more clearly one can think. Stay calm and stay on course. Try not to obsess, and don't put much stock into anything that happens that YOU don't initiate.

He needs to know that YOU are the one who will support him. Each act of "goodness" (Plan A principles) you do now is a thread, and many acts of strength and goodness will weave into a rope, a lifeline which WH will eventually grab ahold of.

Keep a firm footing so you can pull when he grabs for it!!!!

SD

MelodyLane, please don't stop posting. I have greatly appreciated all of your comments, along with everyone else's. When I addressed RH and SD in my last post it was because your post hadn't appeared yet. We must have been writing at the same time.

Concerning my strong and assertive personality. When the truth of the "A" began coming out H told me I was one of the nicest people he knows and, "You don't have a mean bone in your body." Partner told me I'm one of the kindest people he knows. And I am! I am also really smart, and I will put up with being walked on for just so long. When I reentered therapy in January I must have questioned why I put up with this for so long? She told me, "You were dealing with your dad dying." It put some perspective on this. My dad died 8/21. Within a month I told H we have to go to MC because I can't be in this kind of marriage anymore. He went, but dropped out 2 weeks before Thanksgiving. Told me he didn't feel the need, and I should do IC. I said, "The only reason I'd be in therapy is because our marriage sucks." It was at that point that I began releasing this marriage to God, and finally began making plans to leave. In Dec. I realized I'd rather be alone and lonely, than married and lonely. Maybe I'd never meet anyone again, but it was better than being invisible to the man who is supposed to love you.

I might have posted this before, but my therapist told me I'm 10 paces ahead of H psychologically. For one thing it's natural for me, which is why I became a counselor. Also, I have done a lot of my own work. When I told H what she said at the beginning of A being revealed he cried. Later he had the insight that I've always known certain things that I have tried to explain to him and he just hasn't understood. During his enlightened period several weeks ago he was understanding. He actually said to me, "Why have you stuck with me all these years? You are so much more evolved than I am." Therapist also told me "All these years you have been overcompensating for him emotionally." She told me that I need to let him to some of his own psychological work.

I think there is truth in what she said. I have always gotten things about H and our marriage. After our last MC things were so great that I thought we could handle anything. But it was only 2 yrs. before all the crisis began happening. Therapist feels what we learned wasn't solidified to withstand the pressure, at least on his end. So maybe that's where my smarts and assertiveness got in the way. I was trying to help him understand things that he just couldn't get. Like it's OK to have conflict in a marriage, but it's how you deal with it that is important.

RH, I'm not ready to Plan B him yet. I see your point about not wanting my love bank to run dry. If he gives me the cold shoulder indefinitely, and won't do MC, or won't kick into recovery mode, then I'll have to go to Plan B. I'm not there yet. I will follow your advice about not taking any crap. Also the advice from the rest of you not to LB or try to talk to him in his fog state. It would be like trying to communicate intelligently with someone who is high, or maybe speaks a different language. I think we both need to cool off. The bottom line is at some point I will see what he is made of. Either he is a MAN who can do this recovery work, or he is too narcissistic to handle it. In that case "Adios!"