Chris..thanks so much for the reply. I actually have contacted several other brokerage houses in this area...nothing opened right now. The market is finally turning around a bit so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!! After 17 years of working at this office,I do resent the fact that I'm the one that is going to have to leave between the two of us. OM has been there 3 years!! But, like I stated earlier, I would leave in a second if the opportunity comes up.

SG....I do see a common them running here about needing to now that he OP has suffered as well. Some may think that I would go back if the profession was ever made. I can honestly tell you that even though I still care for him, the desire that I had for him is not there. All that I'm left with is the regret that I lost so much more than he did, a part of my heart, my reputation, my self esteem etc etc. This undeniable feeling of being used is the hole that I still feel. I believe with all my heart that if we had parted ways with a knowledge that, yes we know this was wrong of us and we have to do what is right, but the fact is that it was more than just for sexual gratification that, yes, I was going to be hard for him to get over....I never got that from him. The last time that we saw each other away from the office was just to talk and to basically say our goodbyes. I, of course was in tears. As I was leaving, he wasn't even going to hug me or anything. I actually went to my car thinking that he would say something, do something that would show some sign that yes, this too was hard for him. It didn't happen. I walked back over to him and hugged him, while I cried my eyes out. No expression from him at all. Let's just say that I never had to comfort him about letting me go. Yes, those memories hurt like hell!! I cannot say that I can just magically wave a wand and pretend that the hurt isn't there. Although I know that what happened between us was wrong and I would undo it in a minute if I could, I do still have feelings for him. It is not from a fog, it's just reality. I don't obsess over him anymore like I used to. I guess my obsession is over the issue of the fact that I've got to get the truth of the A through my stubborn head. He did use me. His wife wasn't sleeping with him, according to him, and now he know longer needs me to feel that one need that she wasn't.

Lisa- I can imagine that it was hard for you to say goodbye like that. OM and I never really had a "goodbye". We just kind of got into a couple heated arguments over the phone and then I told him about NC and that was it (except for the phone call).

Here's an interesting thing though: Notice that the ways that we parted from the OM were totally different experiences but that we are both left feeling the same way, longing for the same thing. Even though I got some "reassurance" from OM when he called, it hasn't done anything for me except push me down in my recovery. Do you think that there is any good way to part and end the A? I don't think so because even though you are longing for reassurance from OM and I have received it, we both still feel the same way. I don't think there will ever be anything that the OM can give us to let us know that what we did wasn't a mistake. I think this is where we have to learn to acknowledge the fact that OM was a fantasy, what we shared wasn't real (even though the feelings may have been) and we were probably used. Once we acknowledge this and learn to accept this and deal with it, then maybe that's when we can get to the point where we no longer care if OM thinks about us or if he ever truly loved us.

I think it is all about finding this within ourselves, not from OM. Like I said, you and I have two totally different experiences yet we both are feeling the same way. Therefore, I don't think our feelings have so much to do with how we say goodbye to OM but more with learning to heal OURSELVES (without OM).

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's just an interesting observation that I made. I think that no matter how much reassurance we were to receive from OM that he "missed us", "loved us", etc. we would still feel the same way until we learned how to heal ourselves.

SG

SG, I am a BS. I really can`t express how much I appreciate WS posting here. It has helped me a bunch to understand what my WS was thinking and feeling when she was closed off to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris- Thanks for the advice on making a list of good traits of H. I have actually done that and in black and white it looks so obvious, but why is it so hard to convince our hearts that? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That`s because presently your heart is closed to your H. The place in your heart where your H should be is locked by the fantacy of the A.

I`m going to assume that at one time in the past your H was your fantacy. At the very start of your R with you H. Even before you were married when the sparks started flying with your H. Fill your mind those memories.All the good times. Obssess over them. Make them the topic of conversation with your H. Go do the same things/places you did back then with your H.

This was a big breakthrough for me and my W. When I started doing this. Within a month after starting this my W tells me she is in love with me again. The lock on her heart just melted away.

Make your M the fantacy,the excitment,the fun, the thrill of your life again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stupidgirl:
... do you think that it's bad that initially, in recovery, the WS tries to convince themselves that they meant more to the OP than just a fantasy and that what they had did mean something to OP?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it is wrong, SG, in fact I think it is pretty normal. It might even be true. But I think you have to put that desire to know you were loved into its proper place. Simply put, it doesn't matter if he used you or loved you. That is all in the past and it won't affect your future unless you give it space in your head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that a bad thing, a setback in recovery?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a hard one for me to have an opinion on, being a BS and not a WS, though my hunch is that any kind of obsessing is a block to healing. I know that firsthand.... I obsessed over OW for some time and it was just a big fat block between me and FWH. You have to break the cycle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm just concerned that maybe I'm not doing my "recovery" right, maybe I'm doing it wrong and making it 10 times worse on myself than I should be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there any one correct way to recover? I don't think so. But there are generalities. If you aren't going forward in recovery, if you are stuck, there is usually a reason that is deep down inside of us, something we don't want to face. This goes for BS as well as WS. Only you can look deep inside you and find the truth and, with the help of your husband, face it down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know, it's just so hard not to obsess about OP and if they think of us. I think then since we're going through such a strong emotional fight that we only naturally want to know that OP is dealing with the same thing, that it wasn't easy for them to just walk away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is ego talking. We all want to feel needed and desired and we certainly don't want to feel used. In the end, though, it doesn't matter if he is pining away for you or never gives you a thought. He is part of your past and not your future. Keep reminding yourself of that. In many ways, he doesn't deserve your thoughts of him regardless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to get to the point in my recovery where I don't feel anything for OM and where I don't worry about if he still thinks of me or if what we had meant as much to him as it did to me. I want to get there- and I'm trying- but it's hard.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it is hard. But looking backward, trying to find some kind of reassurance that you weren't a fool or that OM is missing your presence is a stumbling block. Sometimes there aren't any sure answers. I still wonder if the FOW in our case has feelings for my husband. Not knowing sometimes bothers me, but then I just remind myself that how she feels about her life, her past, my husband or her husband is really no concern of mine (didn't I hear that somewhere? LOL?). And I move on. You need to move on, too.

Hope this helps.

~ Snow

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

RG- I'm glad that at least some of our WS babblings are helpful to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I'm sure that it's not always easy to hear what we have to say and I'm sorry if some it sounds selfish and greedy (I know alot of it is and just know that it's not meant to be).

You are right when you say that at one time my H was my fantasy. I know this and I spend quite a bit of time each day just remembering everything that we have shared together. For Valentine's day I wrote him a card called "I remember when" and I came up with a 5 page letter of a whole bunch of things I remember us doing or sharing together. It was pretty neat and I think he enjoyed reading it and I know it helped me to write it. Where I'm at now with my H is a much better place then were I was at even just a few weeks ago. My withdrawal is definately getting better and it's not all consuming as it once was but the times that it's there are still very difficult to deal with.

I do find that when I have these moments that if I bury myself in my H and spend time with him and just be with him, it helps me alot. He is very honorable to still be here even though I'm still hurting over OM.

Snowbelle- Thanks for your response. I know that alot of it has to do with ego. Actually, maybe alot of it has more to do with self esteem than ego. I have a low self esteem and that was one of the main things that OM provided me with- validation and self worth. The problem is that it was the wrong kind of validation and self worth and now I'm left with an even lower self esteem than before. So, I think the reason I'm so obsessed with knowing if he still cares about me, etc. is because I'm desperately trying to build my esteem back up. Why is it so important to get this from OM? I don't know the answer to that but I guess that's part of the addiction.

Anyways, I know you're right when you say that knowing if he loved me or not shouldn't have any impact on my recovery. I do know this in my mind- it's just a matter of convincing my heart. I'm a very "feeling" person and so for me to have given so much of myself to this person (even though it may have been a fantasy- I didn't know it was just a fantasy, I thought my feelings were real at the time) and then just walk away with nothing is a very hard thing and it will take alot of time. It's taking alot of time just sorting out my own feelings and trying to convince myself what was real and what wasn't.

So, I appreciate your comments and it helps me to understand where I should be heading in my recovery. Thank you.


Chris- Awesome post. It breaks down exactly how the WS has such a powerful "pull" going on inside them between their intellectual and their feeling sides. And, I also would love to find a way to merge the two sides together so that we can get rid of the "pull".

Some days the intellectual side is definately more prominent but other days it's the feeling side that leads me. I find that I can sit and rationalize it all out in my head as to why things wouldn't have worked with me and OM, but that doesn't give my heart any comfort or make it any easier to deal with. I think human beings are just more easily lead by their feeling sides then they are with their intellectual sides. I wonder if there is any research out there that talks about this and about what things you can do to merge the two together.

Good post Chris.

Sg and Chris,

At first, when I was smothering in fog, my pastors (one male and one female) both told me that if I would change my thoughts, my feelings would change.

At the time, they made me mad. I didn't believe them; I didn't think they were being fair; I didn't think they understood what I was feeling. I thought, "They've never felt this, how can they know?" I thought they were mean and ignorant.

18 months later...I know that they were right.

From experience, I know it isn't easy, and it takes time. There will be triggers and setbacks. There will be times when it's easier to be foggy than to fight.

There are too many things I've learned along the way to be able to write them all down in one post. One thing that is standing out in my mind right now, though, is that at the beginning, I kept begging God just to take the feelings away and make it easier for me. Then I read something a preacher wrote (sorry I can't remember exactly who). It was "God can't take something away from you that you won't let go of!" I realized that I was holding on with all fours!

I had to consciously begin to let go. I had to check myself when I was having triggers to be sure I wasn't wallowing on purpose or using a trigger as an excuse to think about FOM. For example, I realized that sometimes I was looking for a car like his in traffic, although I had not admitted that to myself before.

I don't know if this helps or not. There really is no easy, one-post answer, I'm sure you know that. You are both headed in the right direction, though. Your withdrawal is following a predictable pattern. You're both early on in recovery. If you really want to keep your marriages, don't give up. Never give up. Decide that if the ship goes down, you'll be on it.

Chris mentioned something about wondering if he ends up with a boring, mundane life, did he still make the right decision. The answer is "YES," although life doesn't have to be boring in any case.

Also, I want to add that there are times when you need to quit thinking and rest for a while. Get away from it. Enjoy your S and your family. Enjoy nature. Read a book. Hug a puppy. Worship God. Give thanks.

God Bless.

Rose-

Good post and you are right. I find that I'm holding onto thoughts of OM when at times I don't even realize that I'm doing it. Sometimes certain triggers will send my mind to OM or if I'm driving by the road to go to his house I'll find myself searching traffic for his car. Once I realize what I'm doing, I tell myself "That's not my concern anymore" and it helps me to stop daydreaming (A little mantra that I've learned from Finally Learning).

I remember begging and pleading with God to take the thoughts of OM out of my head and to let me feel for my H what I was feeling for OM. It was a very ugly time and it has gotten better. Hearing OM's voice the other day on the phone really set me back- I didn't think it did initially but now in hindsight it did. I hate that he called and I hate that it has been a set back for me. But, I'm not letting myself dwell on any of the feelings or memories of OM because it's just too hard to do that. I know that people say that we have control of our thoughts but I don't know if I agree. I mean, I agree that we control what we choose to think about or dwell on but I don't think we have control over what memories or thoughts pop into our heads. We can't control them popping in our heads, but we can control how much thought we give them. That's what I'm trying to control now. Whenever one pops into my head I don't stop and think about it, I don't let myself remember details or start dwelling on it. That's what I can control and I think I'm doing ok with that. I have to believe that after doing this for awhile and not acknowledging these thoughts that they will eventually just stop popping into our head all together.

I don't want to close my eyes and remember what it was like to be with OM; or to remember certain things we did or shared- it's still too painful. I think that with time these memories will fade, the details with fade and one day a thought will pop into my head and I will realize that I don't have to pretend to not remember the details anymore because I really DON'T remember them.

SG

<small>[ March 07, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: stupidgirl ]</small>

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Hi Chris, keep posting, you are being heard. i'll do my best to send you peaceful vibes all day.

Hi everyone.
I too am a former wandering wife.
Letting go of the OM has been so difficult!
It was NOT a fantasy relationship, but 10 years of friendship, affection and caring.
A SECRET.

This is the first time I have seen a thread where the FWS can share their inner heartfelt achy heart feelings without being told how wrong we are for feeling this way and that our thoughts should be on our spouse's feelings.

I was even told by a person, that I could not be their friend because I lied to my husband and that I was a dangerous person! It seems I kept trying to convince people that I am a gentle, kind caring woman. I had a long term EA and PA affair with a man that was dying but through the miracle of a transplant, got better! It felt so wonderful to be NEEDED by him all those years and now he doesn't NEED me anymore and I feel kinda lost without him in my life. It is hard to explain.

As I read this thread, I have felt it is a safe harbor for us to express our feelings.
We don't need to be told over and over how wrong we were for having an affair; WE ALREADY KNOW THAT! The thing is, WE DID!

Chris, there are not very many FWH, sharing their feelings here at the MB and we can all learn a lot from you.
Tell us more about what happened with the OW.
You say you found her with someone else, yet as Blessed TIME has pointed out, you were having sex with your wife during this time, weren't you?
How is it different for her to be with someone else?
Please share your feelings.

Are you planning on telling your wife about the 7 year affair with the OW?
It is probably the only possible way that you will be able to have healing in your marriage; yet it is YOUR decision.

The OM in my life has found another woman to share his life with.
Similar to your situation.
It hurts so much yet he deserves to not be alone.
I am not alone, I have my husband and family.
WHAT A DEAL! About all I can say or do is offer him my blessings for a happy life.

What we are doing that MB does not approve of, is he calls me once or twice a month and we have pleasant conversations. (Without my husband knowing.)
In time, I hope to have the courage and strenth to say an actual total 'goodbye'.

Let us hear more from you Chris, and all of you other ladies that are struggling to get over the OM and the excitement of the affair.

This is a safe thread and you can share your heartaches here.
Actually, BS can learn from us as it will help them to know the inner struggles their mates are going through during this withdrawal time in their lives also.
Love, Sarah
In time the heart aches will be heart ease!

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Yes, Chris, actually I do understand.

I too, was having sex with my husband during the years of the affair, yet now to think of the OM sleeping with HER every night and making love with her, is so hard to comprehend.

And harder yet I think, is they are sharing the conversations, the closeness, the everyday things, that we once shared.

I think you and I and some of the others are having to deal with feelings of 'rejection'.
We once were the OP's one and only, (your and my OP were unmarried) we were their everything, and even though they probably still have love for us (I am sure of this) they are sharing their lives with someone else and it hurts. (HURTS A LOT!)

They do not need us like they did before and we are back here still needing them!

I know TIME will help.
We lost a son, and time has helped to take away that terrible pain.

Hang in there Chris, (and the others) and just KNOW that it will get better.

Chris, I am still wondering if you are you planning on telling your wife?
Love, Sarah

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Originally posted by Sarie:

I was even told by a person, that I could not be their friend because I lied to my husband and that I was a dangerous person!

This would be me Sarie, Pepperband. It's OK to say my name.

To me, people who lie to their own family present themselves as dangerous and unethical friends. If you lie to your H, you'd lie to me, or to anyone else.

This is a standard of conduct you and I don't share. I respect truthfulness in friendship, you don't. That's why we could not be friends.


Pep

snowbelle. your post humbles me so much. Here you are giving us FWS's encouragement. I"m sorry but that absolutely blows my mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> !!!! You are the eptiomize the words empathy and compassion. Reading your response is just proof that you can still be a loving and understanding person even after you have been betrayed yourself. If you can do this, then I know that I certainly should be able to as a FWS. Thanks for sharing!

..same to you RG!!!!

Pepper, the thing is YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.
Someone pointed that out to you in another post where you told them the same thing that you just told me!

My sister and I are very very close and she DOES NOT KNOW, ladies from my church are my good friends and they don't know, neither do my daughters or my mom; they do not have a clue about my long affair! The OM and I talked in the daytime and when we met it was for picnics in a secluded area.

Actually, everyone would be in total disbelief if they knew this devoted wife and mother, this nice pretty lady, ME, had an affair!
I wouldn't have believed it of myself had I been asked in 1994 if it were possible, I would have said "Absolutely not!"

So Pepper, your best friend, your Sunday School teacher, your co-worker that you eat lunch with everyday, your sister, your mother could be cheating on their husbands!

YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, you CAN'T know, so to say you could not be friends with a person that has been unfaithful and untruthful to their spouse, could be sitting beside you right this very minute, being your very good friend!
Sincerely, Sarah

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Chris, thanks for your sincere little message. Yes, we want to KEEP this thread a 'safe haven' thread for FWS and it is so nice to read what BS's are writing here, those that have forgiving spirits!

You and I were posting at the same time, I think.
Read what I wrote to Pepper just above yours.
It is so true as I am sure your friends do not know of your 'choices' you have made.
(I don't call them 'mistakes' as they were 'choices'.)

I just hope we can all get on the right road and make our marriages the best they can be.
Our God is a God that forgives; if we just ask!

Love, Sarah