Hi everyone.
I admire all you FWS so much that have been posting here as you seem to be really emotionally letting go of the OP!

I seem to be still lingering in missing him in this recovery period, however, I too have come a long way in letting go and moving forward, since August, when everything changed!

Chris, when I remember your firsts posts on this thread,(I see you deleted them) and your terrible suicidal struggles, to your latest posts, what a wonderful change we see in you!
I want to pat you on the back; you are definitely on the right road in your marriage!

2long....your wife and I are somewhat alike in that we have had a long-term friendship with another man. That is what we are missing. (The friendship.) They made us feel needed and special above and beyond what our husbands were giving us. (And it was WRONG of us!)

I am having difficulty letting that go.
My thoughts are often pretend conversations with him.
Many BS think we are thinking of the sex part, but be assured it is mostly the friendship part.

And when I do 'dream' of the physical, it is mostly the passionate kisses the OM and I shared.

It seems when affairs happen, the married spouses are NOT kissing passionately anymore!~~~My advice for healing marriages is to start kissing again!

My husband and I realized that we had let that go, so our kisses are passionate again.
No more just pecks on the lips but real kisses when he leaves for work, comes home and bedtime kisses have real loving feelings in them!

I read this in a little book called "God;s Little Promise Book" and it is so true.
The sin of an affair starts with a look, a smile, a little conversation, a phone call or e-mail, a meeting in the open, a private meeting, a kiss, another kiss, and before you know it you are caught in the web of lies and sin and it is very difficult to get out.

"A flood begins with a drop of rain.
A habit of sin begins with an act of sin.
Choose your habits well. They will
either become your power or
your prison."

Sincerely, Sarah

Chris- You're so sweet, you make me blush. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I'm so excited for you in giving your W her b-day gift. What an awesome gift! When my H turned 30 (2 years ago) I gave him a surprise gift to Las Vegas (he had never been there before, let alone ever flew on a jet before, but he really wanted to go there). Anyways, I called his supervisor and had arranged (secretly) for him to have a week off work and he had NO clue what was up. He thought that it was slow at work so they were just giving a few of the employees the week off. Anyways, the day we were leaving, I snuck the suitcases out to my car and put them in the trunk with a sign that said "Happy birthday, you're heading Viva Las Vegas baby!!" So, the morning of our departure, he thought we were going to the airport to pick up my friend. So we were sitting in the airport parking lot, supposedly waiting for my friend, and I asked him if he could go in the trunk and get my purse for me (the nice thing about men is that they don't notice or question why my purse would be in the trunk??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Anyways, he went back to the trunk and when you opened it he saw the sign and it dawned on him what was happening and he was SO excited. I didn't tell him where we were staying or anything so it was all a big surprise until we got there. I remember the first morning we woke up there, it was like 5:00 in the morning and I woke up and there he was with a chair pulled up to the window looking out at the strip like he was a little kid on Christmas eve. It was so much fun and I'm glad it all got pulled off without a hitch.

Anyways, do you have any elaborate plans on how to surprise your W with the gift?? It'll be fun and she will feel so special. I think it's wonderful that you're doing this for her and I think that she will appreciate you even more.

I agree about starting a new post about self esteem. I think that the hardest part about letting go of the A isn't so much that I miss it, it's more that I feel I can't let it go until I understand it. Does that make sense? I want to understand why I got involved in the first place, what was it about me that made me do this? Maybe I'm too analytical for my own good but I feel that until I can fully understand something, I'm not ready to put it behind me.

Sarie- I'm sorry that you are still having feelings for OM. I know it's hard but have you tried to reflect on what it is that you can do in your life to maybe try and change your feelings? Things such as chaning your routines or habits; finding new things to focus your time and energy on; coming up with ways to devote all these feelings towards your H? I'm not going to be a whole lot of help because our situations are a little different in that you still talk with your OM occassionally. All I can say is that you probably won't be able to put this in your past as long as OM is still a part of your life, keeping that flame burning (even if only a smolder). In order to extinguish it completely, you need to have absolute NC and I'm sure you're aware of that and I know it's hard.

Do you know why you still find the need to keep him in your life? Do you think that it's just hard for you to put the finality of it behind you? What is it that you're trying to hold onto by keeping him in your life? If he has a new person in his life, wouldn't it be easier on you to just wish him luck and then say goodbye to him? Doesn't it just keep your pain alive each time you talk to him and hear all about his new life he's created without you? I really don't know how you have found the strength to keep doing this to yourself, it must be hard. I pray for you that someday you will be able to say goodbye for good because that's maybe the only way you'll find peace and happiness.

You're in my prayers Sarie,

SG

Thank you SG for your heartfelt post.
Your questions give me much to think about.
You are doing so well; you are the one that started this thread and I can see your healing by your messages!

Our minds tell us the right choices and our hearts tell us something different;
and oftentimes have the wrong reasoning!

It is sooo difficult, almost impossible, for either the OM or I to say a final goodbye.
Our conversations are getting less and less often.
I NEVER contact him. If there is a phone call, it is from him. And I know it is just as wrong of me to let him call as it is for me to call him!

The affair is OVER , I have been forgiven by my husband and have repented and been forgiven by my Savior.

As JL said (I think it was JL) just take it one day at a time, and don't think of the weeks and months ahead. Because like a recovering alcoholic, to think of the never ever again having any conversation with the OP, makes it too hard to get through today.
Love, Sarah
(Yes, please pray for me that I can soon say that final goodbye that needs to be said!)
I am confident, when I do stop all contact, that you folks here at MB will see a change in me!
A freeing of my spirit, back to more myself; the way I was before the affair! A cleansed soul!

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Hi all, aren't we doing well!

Sarah, can I reply to you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is sooo difficult, almost impossible, for either the OM or I to say a final goodbye.
Our conversations are getting less and less often.
I NEVER contact him. If there is a phone call, it is from him. And I know it is just as wrong of me to let him call as it is for me to call him!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Contact is contact is contact. OM contacted me just before christmas 12/22, two days before his birthday on 12/24. I sent back a very short, very terse reply even though everyone said I should just delete it.

On 16 Jan (see I remember the date) I went on my usual walk, knowing I would see him - that was absolutely the last contact and I told him my H knew everything and I was moving on with my M. This was a big set back for me. NC ever since and it REALLY, REALLY is the answer. It's fading all the time and I know, with work from me and my H who is being wonderful, that is 'IT IS NOT MY CONCERN ANY MORE' he will fade completely.

I think of my mother after my dad passed away three years ago. They had been very happily married for over 50 years but she is getting through slowly but surely.

Please tell me if this helps, Sarah.

Jenny

Thank you Jenny for your caring reply.

I know that no contact is the answer, yet it terrifies me so much. I think OM is scared also to not have me in his life as even a friend.

To think of never hearing his voice again, is beyond my comprehension!
And I think you know here at MB that the few times he calls, that I don't tell H.
I know that is wrong but that is my choice!

Jenny, it has been about 2 months for you, if your last contact was the middle of January.
I hope you can continue and your marriage will keep thriving.

Actually, my husband and I are doing really well EXCEPT for my BRAIN! (The OM thoughts)
And my friends here at marriage board know that I only share my thoughts here about OM and NOT with my husband.
I don't want to hurt him any more than I have.

And my hope is, like with you, that when the fog completely lifts, there will be hardly any thoughts of the OM (indifference is my goal) and then I will be glad that I hadn't shared them with my husband.

It is about time for my husband to get home from work so no more 'putering' for me.
Love, Sarah

And THANKS! My dad died 3 years ago also after being married to my mom for 61 years. They had an enduring love for one another. Mom is doing well, has accepted the reality of it....something many of us need to do here at MB.
(Not death but life's changes.)

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarie-
Here's what I had to ask myself when I was trying to "Bargain" with myself about starting NC with OM. I asked myself what I was waiting for, when I thought the "right" moment would be to end contact. I knew there would be no right moment but yet I kept trying to convince myself that someday soon I would be able to do it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that until I actually made up my mind to just do it, there would have been no right time. It's going to be hard at first Sarie, but in time you will find that he will be less and less a part of your life.

How would you describe your feelings about OM? It kind of sounds like you're still hanging onto the "love" that you felt for him. You have to stop thinking of him as this nice man, this caring and thoughtful individual. Because, as hard as it may be to realize, he's none of those things. He knew you were married and yet he chose to impinge upon that anyways. That doesn't make him a nice man, that makes him a deceptive person. I know that he wasn't the only one involved in the A, you were too, but you can make it right again by ending this once and for all. Stop thinking of him in good terms and start seeing him for what he really is. I had to do this and it was hard, but it helped.

Good luck Sarie,
SG

SG, I agree with everything you say.

I keep butting in here but I wanted to add some more. When our Dday arrived H said that he wanted to know whenever OM contacted me no matter how much it would hurt H to hear it. He also said I've forgiven you but this is your only chance - the A starts up again and I'm out of here.

I knew I valued my marriage more than OM (although if you'd been at our place while I waffled on and on you might have doubted it) and I will NEVER make contact again with OM and will tell H if he ever contacts me or I bump into him accidentally - whatever.

You know H said the other day he'd just about had enough of waiting around for me to become myself again and thought it would be best if he just left. We had a terrible evening with lots of crying from me and "don't go" and I went and saw our MC the next day on my own who helped me out a great deal.

Now a few days later, that awful drama has passed and we're right back on track, closer than ever again. Go figure! I know it's going to be a rollercoaster but with OM out of the picture I can concentrate fully on H and my family and my marriage.

Another thing, Sarie you mentioned the kissing. I have told H I have to be kissed and need to be kissed and he agrees - he quite likes it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jenny

Jenny

Sarie:

"2long....your wife and I are somewhat alike in that we have had a long-term friendship with another man. That is what we are missing. (The friendship.) They made us feel needed and special above and beyond what our husbands were giving us. (And it was WRONG of us!)"

As SKM posted 2 you, so with my FWW (it bears repeating because you STILL don't get it!): Rat Meat IS NOT HER FRIEND AND PROBABLY NEVER WAS. RM may have made her feel "needed and special", but he did so expressly for the purpose of "having her" (he even said that in an email I saw on D-day). He didn't care about her, he cared about himself. So much so that he was willing 2 trash his own M (and ours) by getting involved with my W - 2wice. Now he's DV'd, and fighting for custody of his 2 sons with his XW.

She possibly can't realize that now, and I'm doing my best not 2 point it out 2 her (because I'm biased, or it might sound that way 2 her), but the very minute they 2k their "friendship" 2 an inappropriate level and had 2 lie 2 their families 2 maintain their secrecy, they became "co-conspirators", not friends.

I say I'm biased, and in my own life with my own wife, I certainly am. But I've been reading and posting here for 26 months now, and I KNOW that it is absolutely true that affairees ARE NOT FRIENDS. Friends don't lie. Friends don't seduce. Affairees are selfish. At their best, they love their co-conspirator for how they make them feel, not for who they are.

The BS that hangs on long enough 2 learn from the experience and save their M does so because of the love they have for who their WS IS, though they don't recognize it at first (this is particularly true if they have no children, because it MIGHT seem easier 2 just cut their losses). And they don't recognize the deep "caring love" (as the Harleys describe it) or "unconditional love" (as new agers would describe it - and ol' 2long, 2!) because the conditional and sometimes imma2re, clingy love they feel (which makes them feel so HURT on D-day) gets in the way.

In a way, for me, this is very similar 2 the "loving the OP for how they make the WS FEEL" because so much of our relationship interaction had gotten selfish without us realizing it - and perhaps helped my W justify getting involved with RM in part. With time, I've learned 2 love my W for who she is, much better than I ever was able 2 do before (even at the beginning of our M). I think it'll save our M, but the jury is really still out. In the meantime, I'm learning a LOT, because I didn't run away from MY problems (in fact only just really recentlly identified some of the worst of them).

2dles,
-ol' 2long

Sarie:

You amaze me:

"It is sooo difficult, almost impossible, for either the OM or I to say a final goodbye."

It may be difficult. It is not impossible. One of you MUST do it for it 2 happen.

"Our conversations are getting less and less often."

But as long as you have them, you won't be able 2 get over him. YOU CANNOT WEAN YOURSELF FROM HIM.

"I NEVER contact him."

My heart pumps peanut butter for you.

"If there is a phone call, it is from him. And I know it is just as wrong of me to let him call as it is for me to call him!"

No you don't, or you would know what 2 do. It's easy. CHANGE YOUR PHONE NUMBER. RIGHT NOW!

"The affair is OVER ,"

No, it is NOT.

"I have been forgiven by my husband and have repented and been forgiven by my Savior."

Your Savior, whoever she is, may have forgiven you. Your H may have forgiven you for what he believes you've ended. What you've managed 2 do is mislead him in2 believing it is over when it is not. YOU ARE STILL HAVING AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR.

Steve Harley once defined an affair as "what your spouse thinks it is." You don't get 2 make this decision. Ask your H what he would think if he knew you were still in regular contact with your OM?

Look. My FWW just MAY still be in infrequent contact with RM. I don't know. I won't end my M because she isn't being radically honest with me - and she's not, even if she isn't in contact anymore (because she still believes their past is private between her and him). So, I am recovering. I've learned better how 2 do that than I ever knew before. I believe it is possible, in our particular si2ation at least, 2 be friends for life, either as a married 2ple or as coparents. Her friendship and personal growth are very important 2 me (and absolutely necessary for my OWN personal growth). My M is also important 2 me, and currently it's still not 2uite as good as it can be. I think things will improve in that area, but they might not. And I would rather not be M'd than 2 live like this forever. It's not bad, but it's not really M, like M can be. ...your H may get here someday. Beware.

-ol' 2long

Sarie:

Another thing:

"(Yes, please pray for me that I can soon say that final goodbye that needs to be said!)"

You do not need 2 say goodbye. Just STOP. If you say goodbye, say it in a letter that you AND YOUR HUSBAND write 2gether. Don't do this SOON. Do it NOW.

-ol' 2long

I have a little computer time now.
Supper is over, dishes done and we took our 1 1/2 mile walk with our our dog, Penny.

Jenny and SG, thank you for your thoughtful replies...You have been where I am now, and knowing others can get through it and go on without any contact with the OM is good to hear.

One thing though, he is a kind and caring man.
I would not have had an affair with a man that wasn't. His main fault is that he had an affair with me! Likewise the same for all of you and me. It doesn't make him all bad, or me, or any of you....We chose this path in our lives, and now we are paying the consequences.

I know in my situation, I take the most responsibility because I am the married one and the OM was not! I was the one that should have stopped it early on but I didn't.

2long...I have a question for you.
Do you call the man your wife had an affair with, 'ratmeat' to her face?
That is saying you also feel that is what SHE is, since she is the other half of the affair.
Perhaps that is what the OM's wife is calling your wife! Can you see you shouldn't be name-calling?

If your beloved wife is still having contact with him after knowing him for 20 years, she must see some good qualities in him.
Why is she still wanting conversations with him, do you know?

Do you suppose you could get her to read and post on this thread and express her feelings about all of this?

You tell me to have total honestly to my H about my feelings, do you with your W?
Do you let her read what you write here?
Sincerely, Sarah
P.S. 2long, I thought this paragraph from you was really nice and if your wife reads nothing else, it would be good if she reads this:

"In a way, for me, this is very similar 2 the "loving the OP for how they make the WS FEEL" because so much of our relationship interaction had gotten selfish without us realizing it - and perhaps helped my W justify getting involved with RM in part. With time, I've learned 2 love my W for who she is, much better than I ever was able 2 do before (even at the beginning of our M). I think it'll save our M, but the jury is really still out. In the meantime, I'm learning a LOT, because I didn't run away from MY problems (in fact only just really recentlly identified some of the worst of them).

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing though, he is a kind and caring man.
I would not have had an affair with a man that wasn't. His main fault is that he had an affair with me! Likewise the same for all of you and me. It doesn't make him all bad, or me, or any of you....We chose this path in our lives, and now we are paying the consequences.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sarah, those very words came out of my mouth to my H. I also said "you know what I'm like, I would never get involved with someone else just for the "fun" of it." Talk about twisting the knife but that's how I felt at the time.

He said "a man who sleeps with another man's W" is not kind and caring. He is the worst kind of scum. Why doesn't he fix his own marriage instead of f***ing up mine." Granted, your OM wasn't married but the sentiments are the same. I believe all this to be true and yet that foggy part of me still says inside "but he loved me."

Jenny

Sarie- I know that you think OM is a nice man and, you know, maybe he is. I mean, heck, I still have memories pop into my head once in awhile about OM and some of his "good" qualities or some of the nice things he did for me. But, honestly, he is a deceptive man as well. He took something that wasn't his- so he's also a thief. He lied and he played a part that he had no right in playing- your H. We, the WS's, have also done all these same things and yes, we are also liars, thieves, cheats, etc. But, the difference is in those WS's who recognize this and try to better themselves and their M's.

It sounds like your H is a very trusting man, even in spite of the A. And, sometimes that makes it easier to just take your S for granted. I know that's what I did initially. I mean, my H always showed me his forgiving side so it made it that much easier for me to ignore his pain and deceive him further. I think that you need to be honest with your H and I think maybe you need a dose of "tough love" from him. I know that's what I needed to finally realize that I couldn't just walk all over my H and expect him to still be there. You need to be honest with your H and try to build a SOLID foundation with him- not one that is only partially built because it's still plaqued with deception. Sarie, I KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL! I really truly do. I was in your exact same place not that long ago.

My NC only started a few weeks ago (and actually, I did receive that message from OM just a couple weeks ago). I am in awe of how well I'm doing since it hasn't been that long since last contact. When OM contacted me I was slightly "honored" to a degree and also I felt good to know that he still thought of me. Well, those feelings quickly vanished and the next day I was right back down at the bottom, crashing hard. That's what contact does to you, it makes you start all over. Every time that you talk to OM (even though he initializes it), it sets you back to the beginning. Even if you aren't the one actually calling him, you're still waiting around for his call and each day I bet you find yourself wondering "will today be the day that I'll hear from OM?" This keeps it alive for you, this doesn't allow you to move on. Once NC is established you will find that you stop wondering when you'll hear from OM next, you'll stop obsessing about what he's doing, etc.

Remember when I started this post and I said that it was eating me alive wondering what OM was doing and if he was going back to his W, etc? Well, I came across some information the other day and it was information about a trip that OM took to Orlando with his W on their anniversary (Feb. 27). You know what, initially it hurt to hear that, but about 1/2 a day later I was able to put it behind me and tell myself "who cares? It's not your concern anymore". Now, if this would have happened a few weeks ago when I started this post, I would have been obsessing about it for weeks on end. Don't you see what the importance of NC has on your own mental state of mind? I know it's hard to say goodbye, but like 2Long said, you don't need to have a formal goodbye. I didn't and I'm doing just fine. Maybe next time OM calls you you can simply say something like "I appreciate your friendship, but I find that I can't continue to have you be a part of my life anymore if I am going to try to make my M work. I would really appreciate it if, as my friend, you don't call me anymore because it's too hard for me to let that part of my life go each time I talk to you." Just say something like that Sarie. That's not offensive, snide or nasty but it lets him know that he can't be in your life anymore.

NC works, it really does. Look at KiwiJ, Chris and myself- we're all living, breathing proof that, even though it's hard, NC works! Your M will become better, much better, and you will be happy. And I don't just mean happy, I mean truly and sincerely happy. I find that I am ALOT more at peace lately. When I'm driving into work in the mornings and there's a beautiful day or sunrise, I find that I actually appreciate it and it makes me feel happy inside. Do you know how long it's been since I've felt that kind of peace?? A LONG time and it's only because I finally stepped up and decided that I wasn't going to let OM control me anymore, I wanted my life back and I decided to take it back. You have to do the same Sarie. You're a smart person, you're a caring person and I know you honestly want to stop this vicious cycle. But, it can only stop when YOU stop it. I has to be you, Sarie, and it has to be now. The future isn't going to present you with any better opportunity to establish NC, so why not do it now? We're here for you, your H is here for you. Make us proud..... show us how strong you are!!!

SG

this is a "healing" thread guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> you can just look back at the start of this one thread and see progress!!! I can report another good day today...one day at a time!!! I told OM today that he didn't need to feel anymore guilt over what happened between us as far as him hurting me. I can't describe to you all what God has done in my heart!!! He has given me back true joy and a song in my heart that hasn't been there in a long long time!!! I pray for you all to experience the same joy and peace. I was scared at first thinking that this was just a fleeting thing but I have to say since last week's experience at church, I haven't been the same person. When the preacher was praying for me, knowing nothing about me, God inspired him with just the words that I needed to hear. I cried my heart out, different than any other time.

For so long I was so wrapped up in myself and what I thought I deserved from the OM. I didn't deserve anything, I finally realized. I was not the victim here. My H and the OM's wife were the victims. What I did, I chose to do, I had the choice. I think that this is the first time that I finally experienced true, heart felt repentance over what I did. I guess God couldn't really give me what I so needed until I reached that point in the process. The obesession for what I thought I deserved from the OM is gone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sarie:

"One thing though, he is a kind and caring man."

I submit 2 you that, whether HE realizes it or not, he is a cold and manipulative man, interested in "feeling good" for a time. You were his "fix" all those years.

"I would not have had an affair with a man that wasn't."

My W said something along these lines about RM. 2rned my stomach every time.

"His main fault is that he had an affair with me!"

Allow me 2 expand on "affair":

♣ His main fault is that he is a liar.

♣ His main fault is that he is a cheater.

♣ His main fault is that he is thoughtless of others.

♣ His main fault is that he is manipulative - he gave you the attention you needed so that he could cheat with you, which made him feel good.

♣ His main fault is that he is that he is a theif - he stole you're H's W from him without thought for how that would affect your H or your family. He stole your H's right 2 a monogamous R with you that he signed up for when he married you.

♣ there are more, but you get the general idea.

"Likewise the same for all of you and me. It doesn't make him all bad, or me, or any of you...."

Absolutely correct. But bad behavior should not be rewarded, but corrected. I have my bad behaviors 2 correct, as does my W. Mine are my responsibility, hers are hers. RM has his own problems. Whether he deals with them or not is his problem, not mine and not my W's.

"We chose this path in our lives, and now we are paying the consequences."

You have many yet 2 pay.

"I know in my situation, I take the most responsibility because I am the married one and the OM was not! I was the one that should have stopped it early on but I didn't."

Again, you are responsible for your own mistakes and choices. The OM is responsible for his. Neither of you is "more" responsible than the other. You owe your H everthing. You owe the OM nothing but silence.

"2long...I have a question for you.
Do you call the man your wife had an affair with, 'ratmeat' to her face?
That is saying you also feel that is what SHE is, since she is the other half of the affair."

Very good 2uestion! No, I don't. The nickname "Rat Meat" came from my college days, and was applied by my friends 2 a gal in our classes that habi2ally checked out any assigned "additional reading" books from the library (when there was only one copy) and kept renewing them so that none of the rest of us could study them in time for the exams... ...I got tired of calling him "the OM" even though that's the accurate designation. For a while, I referred 2 him as "the OMW's H", 2 remind myself (and my W, because I used her name 2 indicate him: 'K*****'s H') who he was responsible 2. I don't remember when I started using RM. Probably about spring 2002 or so. I know it sounds derrogatory (and really, it is!), but I think it stems more from my innate tendency 2 give nicknames 2 EVERYONE around me. Usually they're not derrogatory, but sometimes they might sound like that. Some of my friends have sarcastic nicknames that came in a flash and stuck for 20 yrs or more... I've thought of telling her about that one, but haven't. Probably because I don't think that, even now, she'd take it the way I mean it (which, I admit, is pretty equivocally). I have a few other nicknames for him as well that are much less "flattering." These I came up with while venting. I haven't posted them here because they involve purmutations of his name, his professed abilities as a professional, or his purported affiliation with a group of people that I have a great deal of respect for (the people, definitely not him). These days, I still get angry with him from time 2 time, but I mostly pity him. Probably, I don't tell my W about that nickname in part because there is a small chance that she may wind up with him if we don't stay 2gether. My W can be a very caring person, and if that were 2 happen, I would still want her 2 think well of me. ...having said all this, I will probably tell her about it someday.

"Perhaps that is what the OM's wife is calling your wife! Can you see you shouldn't be name-calling?"

I think I've heard a number of things, through my W from RM, that Mrs Meat has called her. Do I care? Not much, and mainly because it didn't help her end her A with RM. I heard enough about her (only saw the Meats once at a party about 13 years ago) via my W (so probably inflated hearsay from RM), that it is possible that she would NOT be a OP's S that I would want 2 contact. I never did have 2 tell her about the A, RM got careless and she found out herself about 4 months after I did. It seems like she tried 2 get him 2 end it several years ago without telling me (and the A resumed 5 years later), so I don't feel like I should have felt obligated, in retrospect. About a year and a half ago, she threw RM out of their house, then alegedly asked him 2 come home and help her with the kids. When RM came home, she was with another man at their house. He filed for DV, and I know very little about them still.

"If your beloved wife is still having contact with him after knowing him for 20 years, she must see some good qualities in him."

I think she's known him for about 15 years. Her A with him was 12 years long. He was M'd maybe 2 or 3 years when it started. I think it's more likely that they became addicted 2 one another, like you and your OM, rather than because of his good qualities. It doesn't matter, though. If it's the latter, then I would rather let them continue their relationship as my XW. And I say that, not with malice, but with love. I truly want her 2 be happy, but I don't want 2 be miserable. The A is forgivable, but only if it's truly ended. "Friendship" after what's happened is just a glossed-over word for "emotional affair." I am happy 2 compromise on many issues, but not regarding infidelity. I won't sacrifice my own goal of happiness 2 that degree again.

"Why is she still wanting conversations with him, do you know?"

Well, like I said earlier, I don't know that she's still in contact. She said that she would stop in December, because she knew how much it hurt me (and because RM didn't seem 2 want anything 2 do with her). That last email was about a professional question (and a "happy birthday"). My worries center mainly around her desire 2 remain a "colleague", since she seems 2 understand that "friends" won't work.

"Do you suppose you could get her to read and post on this thread and express her feelings about all of this?"

I have asked a number of times 2 post here or on our iloveulove.com forum, but she's not interested. Once, I asked the MB forum what their definition of M was (per a discussion we had in December 2002). I then copied the whole thread and pasted it in2 an email, with my "Qfwfq" username (at the time) included in my posts. She read it, but not thoroughly, and we discussed it some, but we didn't really get anywhere with it. These days, she feels that we should be able 2 recover on our own without help from counselors, books, or forums. I do tell her I still post here, though, and sometimes I'll talk about what's said in general terms when it's relevant 2 our sitch.

"You tell me to have total honestly to my H about my feelings, do you with your W?"

I believe so.

"Do you let her read what you write here?"

Like I said, I've invited her 2 do so, but she hasn't been interested.

-ol' 2long

I'm on a roll now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My boss (the CEO of the company) is at a conference all day today and what am I doing? Dealing with my marriage LOL

Sarah, it will hurt to have NC, it will be so painful you won't think you are going to make it. I said to a friend I thought I would die if I didn't see OM again. That is not true. That is why I mentioned my mother. She knows she will never see the man she loved for over 50 years again but she also knows she has to deal with it, no other choice - and I tell you it has been very hard for her.

As SG said (and so far she's said everything I would say but better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) it's the waiting for contact that's the killer. When you know it isn't going to come any more you feel you can move on. I used to check my e-mail a hundred times a day and when I did get the e-mail just before christmas, first reaction was "oh he's in touch again" and my heart lifted. Second reaction was "oh s**t what do I do now?" and I thought of my H and what he wanted from me and I replied very shortly, not mentioning the upcoming birthday, and told H that night that OM had been in touch.

OM came looking for me on my walk because he wondered about my short e-mail. He had been stewing over it for 3 weeks.

It actually took me a while to tell H about seeing OM in Jan but I made myself tell him. I'm so glad I did - we dealt with my and his feelings about it together.

As long as you are in contact and are waiting for contact again you really can't move on.

Jenny

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Sarah,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing though, he is a kind and caring man.
I would not have had an affair with a man that wasn't. His main fault is that he had an affair with me! Likewise the same for all of you and me. It doesn't make him all bad, or me, or any of you....We chose this path in our lives, and now we are paying the consequences. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he was a kind and caring man, why didn't you explain to everyone what you were doing and why you were doing it? I am sure your friends would have been impressed with how "kind and caring" he is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Further, if this is such a noble cause that you want to continue it why not tell your H the affair is still on, it is and we both know it. I am sure your H being the generous, kind man he is, will be happy to know that you have been in the hands of a "kind and caring" man. It is probably not bothering your H, that you think more of this man, than you do of him or the marriage,and that you continue to see him, without H knowing it.

If he is a man you are so proud of Sarah, why haven't you told your children about him, your friends, the people at church. Do you think they will feel the same? I don't, but do you?

When he healed he moved on and found another woman. You explained he did it, because YOU would NOT leave your H. But, the reality is he is using her as well. I mean he is still in contact with you, he is still talking to you about things that he should be speaking to HER about.

Sarah (small and pretty) you are lying to yourself. There is little about this man to respect and it is clear you have little respect for your H.

It seems to me you have things completely backwards. I know you think you have your H in your backpocket. I know you really don't respect him, and I know you have no appreciation of what you have robbed your H of for the past decade, and certainly now.

But, at least have enough sense to respect a man that deserves it and your OM is NOT a man worthy of any respect.

This is not about him being evil, it is about him being selfish, thoughtless, a liar, and lusting after another man's W. I personally don't find those traits something I would want in a friend, an acquaitance, or a spouse.

He is continuing the contact because he can, and it suits his needs to maintain control of you. You have expressed that you want to work on the marriage, and he has clearly shown that he does not want you doing that. I don't care what he has said, his actions are very clear. You may take pride in the fact that he wants you, but it is the sort of pride that will lead to your fall, and great harm to your H and family.

So quit making excuses for YOUR very bad decisions and you robbing your H of 10 years of having a loving and devoted W. You H has had at best the leftovers. He has had you only when YOU decided to not focus on the OM, or when you had to pretend to like and respect your H to hide your affair.

Even now what you say is simply excuses because you don't want to face the truth, and I doubt...No! I know you have not told your H the truth even about the affair. You, yourself, that your H did NOT know the depth of the affair and how committed to the OM you were.

Please stop the contact. Please stop the excuses and the evasion of your role in betraying your marriage and your family. Please pay attention to your H and NOT the OM, and be honest with your H.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ March 25, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]</small>

Sarah, Are you sure you and my wife are not trading notes?

My wife has also had a very long affair with the OM. She also thinks he is a kind and caring man who is concerned not only with what is best for her but what is best for me.

My wife even introduced him to her friends. But, somehow she forgot to mention that she was having an A with him. Why do you think she avoided mentioning that fact?

The only difference is that I dug out the truth myself and confronted my wife. Your husband has not yet confronted you, but I will bet he knows a lot more than you think he does.

Why would a kind and caring man have an affair with another man's wife? The answer is he is NOT kind and caring. More likely he is like my wive's lover, an STD (Silver Tongued Devil).

She once told me that he has never said a bad word about me. What bad things would he have said? "Your husband is a selfish, jerk because he doesn't want me sleeping with you!"

You are in the same fog. And it's mighty thick.

Don't think you and he are not hurting your husband. I wish my wife had left me all those years ago rather than pretend to be my wife while secretly plotting to continue the A with the OM. At least by now I would either happily single, or, with a bit of luck, happily married to a woman who truly loves and appreciates me.

You and he know what to do and you won't do it. You choose to continue this hurtful process. that is the wrong thing to do.

Despite all of this I love my wife and want her back in a new and better marriage.

<small>[ March 15, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: JustinExplorer ]</small>