I have a question. I've been reading the posts and the replys for a few days now. I've posted my own situation. I am not married. I've been dating my SO for almost 3 years. He has strayed twice. He has lots of reasons for the affair including a "hassle free encounter." Mostly he is frustrated with my situation which involves an exhusband and 3 kids (mostly grown kids). He has never been married. I am, therefore, a betrayed lover. I was in love with this man completely. The affairs pain me greatly - the second worse than the first because he broke a promise to me of fidelity. I still love him. Or let's say that even with the pain, I have not crossed the line, that fine line, between love and hate. He wants to work on it. He wants to seek counseling. He wants to try. I'm afraid. I have no trust.

Here's my question. The posts to me have been mostly run away. Turn away from this man and run for your life. And yet the posts to married spouses whether the WS or the BS are more supportive. Hold on. Your pain is real in either position (WS or BS). See the light. I don't know... there just seems to be a difference.

My love is just as real as a married person's love. My pain and the difficulty with attempting to trust again are no different than a BS. Just because I am not married to this person, doesn't mean that it isn't emotionally hard to walk away from him and yet, it should be easier to do just that because we aren't married. Marriage is what I had hoped for.

I find myself in this incredible position of considering the reconciliation option. What would that mean to us. We aren't married and we aren't living together. I wouldn't marry him at all if I didn't trust him, and I don't. So we aren't getting married anytime soon. I think that to build that trust we would have to be living together so that he was with me every night. He would have to treat me as his wife and include me in much of what he does outside of work. But we aren't living together and I don't believe in living together (I have a 16 year old daughter still at home and she knows about the A and wants nothing to do with him). Bad form - living together.

The more I talk about it, it does seem like a terribly hopeless situation. I'm just so incredibly sad. Everyone thinks I should walk away. I have to worry about the example I set for my daughter. I have certain values and principles that I will not compromise. And yet, I wish I could make it better. I wish I could fix it. He wishes he could turn back the hands of time. Hurt, anguish, loss, guilt, betrayal, lack of trust. Nothing justifies and A. Yet both parties suffer so.

I'm not angry too much anymore except when the visions of him with OW come to mind. And what he said to me the night he was caught. Then I get angry. Mostly I'm sad, very sad.

It just seems like the only answer is to walk ........ because I can. I have no piece of paper making a difference. Stupid piece of paper. My commitment to him was as real as any vow before God. Don't get me wrong. I so believe in marriage. I so believe in those vows.

This is so hard.
Long winded.... sorry.

I think there are several reasons for the "run away" advice...and none have to do with feeling that your love is less strong or important than one who is married.

First, cheating early in the relationship is a very bad indicator. Someone who's spouse strays in a one-time incident after many faithful years of marriage has a much better shot of returning to an exclusive, faithful relationship...typically in those cases the straying was out of character. When a spouse strays early in the marriage, it tends to say more about the person...that they are self-centered and/or simply have a problem being faithful.

Secondly, many people here have religious or moral objections to divorce.

Practically speaking, after years of marriage, divorce can be a financial nightmare.

Then, perhaps most importantly, there are the kids...most marriages have kids to protect.

Let me ask you this...why would you want to stay with someone who has selfishly put you thru such a painful experience...TWICE...so he could have some "hassle-free" sex?

Kathi

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cut's deep:
<strong>

It just seems like the only answer is to walk ........ because I can. I have no piece of paper making a difference. Stupid piece of paper. My commitment to him was as real as any vow before God. Don't get me wrong. I so believe in marriage. I so believe in those vows. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, he has made no committment to you. Nor is he marriage material. He has shown you that. No amount of "feelings" can change that. I assure you that had I known my H was going to commit adultery BEFORE I married him, I would not have married him. I would never willingly volunteer for that hell.

As long as you know - and ACCEPT - that you are marrying a man who is not committed to you and WILL commit adultery in your marriage, then you should marry him. Some folks do not mind sharing their man with others and don't place a high value on fidelity, that is fine. Most would not willingly marry into that type of situation. But please don't delude yourself into thinking you can change him. YOU CAN'T.

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Is it ok for your daughter to marry a deceitful man who cheats on her?

Is it ok for your son to marry a deceitful woman who cheats on him?

Would you advise them to marry someone who cheated and lied to them? They are involved here too. You are setting the example for your children.

Hi CD,

I'm sorry that you feel upset but I have to agree with Kathi on her point that if this man has already cheated on you twice in 3 years before you are married,it really is as best an indicater as to how this man feels about you.Yes he may love you but his *ACTIONS are saying something entirely different IMO.

I don't think anyone is questioning your love for him but what we are questioning is this man's respect for you,his love for you,his treatment of you.Marriage most definitely will not solve anything and I'm glad you are putting that off for now.People bring to the marriage all their baggage.This man's reasoning for having at least one of the As was also very hurtful."A hassle free encounter"?? Pardon me? Did he take into account your feelings at all? No.

I would like to see you get to a point where I reached.And that is a point of complete inner confidence.How do you get there,well it takes work.I got to a place where I could be ok with no matter what decision I made regarding my WH.If I got a D,or I stayed to try and reconcile,I had the strength and power within me to endure either decision.

For you,perhaps it might be best if your SO sought counseling on his own to try and discover his underlying reason for his unfaithfulness.Meanwhile you are working on your self and discovering why you consider a man that has already proven himself untrustworthy before making any vows.

You both need some growth to occur before you could ever take that step toward matrimony.So I am saying it's not hopeless BUT it is a very complex situation.Serial cheaters are not your garden variety adulterers.There is more to infidelity with these people than say a man or woman that made one mistake in 20 yearts,etc.IMHO.And this all could take *years before any major adjustments were made within yourselves so you are in this for the long haul if you do decide to work it out with this man.

The alternative is letting this man go and finding someone who may already have with in himself the ability to respect,love and honor you before marriage and then the years after.In my opinion,you have been given a gift,a wake up call for how this man really cares for you.He can pay you lip service all day long but what is he *doing to ensure that he is a loving,committed,faithful potential husband?

O

Originally posted by cut's deep:
I've been dating my SO for almost 3 years.

The purpose of dating is to determine the appropriatness of the datee as a future spouse, yes? This is true for you? Not just dating for fun and recreation.... I think this is your situation.

He has strayed twice.

Is this appropriate for YOUR future spouse? You decide.

He has lots of reasons for the affair including a "hassle free encounter."

Sounds immature to me. What do YOU think?

Mostly he is frustrated with my situation which involves an exhusband and 3 kids (mostly grown kids).

So, if he feels frustrated with the situation in your future hypothetical marriage, he might be inclined to cheat. How we handle our frustrations is a very GOOD and usually ACCURATE measure of our character.

He has never been married. I am, therefore, a betrayed lover.

You were betrayed. He is a repeating/ frustrated cheat.

I was in love with this man completely. The affairs pain me greatly - the second worse than the first because he broke a promise to me of fidelity.

Broken promises are a part of his character.

I still love him.

Your feelings of love WILL NEVER change his character. he is what he is.

Or let's say that even with the pain, I have not crossed the line, that fine line, between love and hate.

Who says you should hate him? Do you respect him? Do you trust him not to cheat the next time he is frustrated and an opportunity to have hassel-free-sex presents it'self to him?

He wants to work on it.

He wants to keep you because he's found his perfect woman.... one who will tolerate his cheating.

He wants to seek counseling.

Wish him well. Don't go with him ... this will allow you an opportunity to see how commited to counseling he is. If he makes his own appointments, goes faithfully for a year without your influence .... THEN I'd be impressed. Him saying he "wants to" go to counseling says to me he'll say things to keep you involved, but takes no independent action. is this true so far?

Has he gone?
Does he even make the first call?
Or.... is he waiting for YOU to make him a counseling appointment?

He wants to try.

Boy, he's irritating! There is no "trying" at this point .... there is DO~ING.

What is he DOING besides trying to get you to change your mind?

I'm afraid. I have no trust.

You have NO reason to trust.

Here's my question. The posts to me have been mostly run away. Turn away from this man and run for your life. And yet the posts to married spouses whether the WS or the BS are more supportive. Hold on. Your pain is real in either position (WS or BS). See the light. I don't know... there just seems to be a difference.

You are free to let go of a man who has hurt you and has the potential to hurt you more. And your reason for staying is "I love him" .... When there is no trust, love is not going to make you happy.


My love is just as real as a married person's love.

Your feelings are yours.

Love is a verb.

Love in a married sense is putting your spouses needs above your own. I don't imagine your boyfriend being able to carry this off for any amount of time .... based on his track record.

Dr. Phil says: Past actions predict future actions.

My pain and the difficulty with attempting to trust again are no different than a BS.

You are free to run .... there is the difference.

Just because I am not married to this person, doesn't mean that it isn't emotionally hard to walk away from him and yet, it should be easier to do just that because we aren't married. Marriage is what I had hoped for.

What you hope for and who he is do not match. This is a reality check.


I find myself in this incredible position of considering the reconciliation option. What would that mean to us. We aren't married and we aren't living together. I wouldn't marry him at all if I didn't trust him, and I don't. So we aren't getting married anytime soon.

Good. Have you been tested for STDs?

I think that to build that trust we would have to be living together so that he was with me every night.

He could still cheat if he wants to. You want to be his parole officer?

He would have to treat me as his wife and include me in much of what he does outside of work.

He doesn't respect HIS OWN PROMISE of fidelity. He has shown you that, TWICE. Wife or not.... these are his values.

He is an "as is" man.

But we aren't living together and I don't believe in living together (I have a 16 year old daughter still at home and she knows about the A and wants nothing to do with him). Bad form - living together.

Thank goodness.

The more I talk about it, it does seem like a terribly hopeless situation.

You dated, you discovered his character .... and yet you are still hoping his character is what it isn't.


I'm just so incredibly sad.

Sad is fine. It may keep you away from the biggest mistake of your life. Your sadness SERVES a purpose! Your sadness is a warning!

Everyone thinks I should walk away.

Then why don't you?

I have to worry about the example I set for my daughter. I have certain values and principles that I will not compromise. And yet, I wish I could make it better.

You wish you could change the REALITY that this man's character is weak .... he is charming, cute, but weak and not marriage material.

I wish I could fix it.

You wish .... you wish ....

He wishes he could turn back the hands of time.

HE WISHES HE DID NOT GET CAUGHT.

Hurt, anguish, loss, guilt, betrayal, lack of trust. Nothing justifies and A. Yet both parties suffer so.

Yep! True.

Are you gonna sign up for wishes or for reality?

He is a weak man. Your hurt, his hurt , your daughter's hurt .... nothing changes this FACT .... pre-marriage infidelity is a VERY STRONG predictor of FUTURE infidelity.


I'm not angry too much anymore except when the visions of him with OW come to mind. And what he said to me the night he was caught. Then I get angry. Mostly I'm sad, very sad.

You migh be angry with yourself in 10 years if you marry this weak man.


It just seems like the only answer is to walk ........ because I can. I have no piece of paper making a difference. Stupid piece of paper.

A piece of paper HE will not respect .... based on his past performance.

My commitment to him was as real as any vow before God. Don't get me wrong. I so believe in marriage. I so believe in those vows.

He doesn't..... why bet your future on a lie?

This is so hard.

I know.

Remember the "trying" part .... if he commits to counseling ON HIS OWN and keeps it up for an entire year .... then you've got a brave man who is ready for marriage.

Don't settle for less.

Pep

<small>[ February 29, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep,

You hit the nail on the head in one of your responses to my words. No, he hasn't scheduled counseling. He said he tried but that they never called him back. I called and they contacted me the next day. We are going together - like marriage counseling. I bet if I asked him to go by himself, he wouldn't.

He does not see this as "his" problem. He feels like he was driven to the A, which he also says he was with the OW only twice. That means I caught him red handed both times. I really don't believe that. Anyway, driven by my ignoring him and his suggestions on dealing with my kids and my ex. Driven by not making room for him in my life. Lots of things.

He says that those unmet EN may have driven him, but they don't justify the A. At least he admits that.

But many of your questions and responses to portions of my post are valid and are what everyone is asking me. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really do appreciate it. Being with my friends and my pastor and reading these responses, I find that I somehow feel strength to leave. That leaving would be for the best. Then he comes around. He talks and I listen. Sometimes I wonder if I'm under a spell because he has the ability to almost capture me in a web.

Yes, it is hard to leave. And NO, emphatically NO, I do not want this kind of behavior and hurt in my future. And I suppose I should keep telling myself that this is what I will get. Not that he can change. But that this is what I will get.

Oh, one more thing. I spoke with him today and I asked him if he was still speaking with the OW. D-Day #2 was Jan 22. He said that he had spoken with her twice, very briefly. My response was that I can't have that. He asknowledged that by saying "I know." He then said something about waiting to see if we were going to "move forward." That means seek counseling and try to make it work. I suppose I should look at this as another indication of character? If he were truly sorry and truly wanted me, he would have told her to get lost and never call him again. I mean he would have done that immediately - right?

CD: Why do you want to go through the agony of worrying whether you can trust him? He has already shown you (twice) that he cannot be trusted. You have a door open. Take it. Why expose your children to that kind of person? Why expose yourself to so much pain? People who act like that are selfish and only think of themselves. What others feel is of no concern to them. You may be in love and are blinded by that love. Take the blinds off and see what he is showing you.