ML,

You never chose to deal with his infidelity and drunkeness, he DID

Well, partially true. I wouldn't say I ever said to myself, "Boy, I wish I had a husband who was an alcoholic!". But during our 23 years, a good number of which he's been drinking, I never chose to get out of the marriage, and rarely even considered it except during his first A (sure, I had a few other moments, but they were fleeting).

What you can - and should - do is set boundaries that protect yourself, ie: if you want to be involved with me you have to do A) XYZ and B) MNO.

I'm just not sure he can actually do XYZ and MNO all at once. That will take incredible strength, and he may just give up and say "forget it, there's no way I can do it". My question to me then is, "Must I have all or nothing, or are there areas (definitely not the OW) where a certain amount of compromise can be made, at least for a period of time?"

And again, it may not matter at all. I've still heard nothing all day from him. I called down just to make sure everyone was still among the living. They are. He slept all afternoon and was still sleeping when I called. I'm not sure he's doing his taxiing tonight. If he is, he'll have to leave from down there soon.

I'm sure he's VERY angry with me right now because I'm making him give up his OW if he wants me back. Again, it's after 5pm on a Friday so I'm in my downward mode. Need to find a pick-me-up soon so I don't crash if he doesn't call and tell me he's ending (or has ended) it, and trying very hard not to get my hopes up at all. May be doing this still in another 1/2 year.

I do thank you for your response, ML. I need probably the most help in setting boundaries, whether or not he is through with OW at this point.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB]
I'm just not sure he can actually do XYZ and MNO all at once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But that will be his choice. Of course he can do both if he chooses. But not if you continue to make excuses for him. Thousands of people before him have made that choice. But he won't choose it unless he has to. And he doesn't have to.

He will continue to drink and do whatever he wants as long as there is no motivation to stop. And there is no motivation to stop so he will continue indefinitely until he is killed or jailed.

LL, you continue to make excuses for him to help him stay sick. Instead of helping him stay sick, why not help him get better? Excuses won't help him get better.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure he's VERY angry with me right now because I'm making him give up his OW if he wants me back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think he takes that seriously, do you? I sure don't. I think he knows you would take him back tonight regardless of his position with the OW. Remember, an alcoholic can "work" a co-dependent with very little effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB] ML,

You never chose to deal with his infidelity and drunkeness, he DID

Well, partially true. I wouldn't say I ever said to myself, "Boy, I wish I had a husband who was an alcoholic!". But during our 23 years, a good number of which he's been drinking, I never chose to get out of the marriage, and rarely even considered it except during his first A (sure, I had a few other moments, but they were fleeting).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I suppose you could say you did CHOOSE to stay with an alcholic. But you didn't make the choice for him to be an alcoholic. You didn't make his choice to have an affair. That was all inflicted by him, not you. Pleaes don't make the mistake of pitying the alcoholic. Your sympathy is not warranted and is actually quite destructive to him.

Guess I got my answer, at least for now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

WH called--fit to be tied because his boss didn't leave him a paycheck this week. Agreed, a dirty trick on their part because he did work 4 of the 5 days, but there was no reasoning with him. Too angry.

Then I made the mistake--I asked the question I wanted to know since yesterday: "Are you and OW done after this taxi trip you're doing right now."

His answer, "I don't need this S*** right now!!"
(click....he hung up)

I called mutual friend to find out if anything happened down there last night. Not really. He did say he was trying to end it with OW. And OW left a voice message for him about some "talk" they were supposed to tonight that she assumed was to "end it". So I assume he was originally going to try and break the ties tonight after he dropped her daughter off.

But now he's pissed at me big time. He called back, and started in AGAIN on how he didn't need this s***, how maybe I ought to speak to mutual friend. I don't remember what all he said but basically it was all angry and hateful and then he hung up again on me. (click...)

Mutual friend is now, of course, condemning me for asking the question I thought I was entitled to ask, and now is blaming me for pushing him right back into OW's arms, because it's the question I ask over and over. Well, when he said last night to me that he had this one taxi trip to do and then he was cut loose, I took that to mean "OVER". So I asked.

So I told mutual friend that since I've now been hung up on twice after trying to be sympathetic about the paycheck and after asking something I didn't see a wrong question to ask, I am not calling him back. It is not my duty to kiss butt and apologize for something I didn't do wrong. She says I'm making a big mistake.

So looks like I've just LB'd my way right back to where I was. Maybe he will be with her forever. Maybe they will live happily ever after and never break up.

Boundaries...got to have boundaries. We had gotten along SO well all week, and now it just went to Hades in a handbasket. I got seriously burned. And it hurts. And I hurt. And I'm angry. And that's just one more reason not to call him back.

So the weekend has started off very sucky! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> May my anger be enough to carry me through, because all the faith I had just went down the tubes again (I'm so sorry, God!).

LL

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>



Then I made the mistake--I asked the question I wanted to know since yesterday: "Are you and OW done after this taxi trip you're doing right now."

His answer, "I don't need this S*** right now!!"
(click....he hung up)

So looks like I've just LB'd my way right back to where I was. Maybe he will be with her forever. Maybe they will live happily ever after and never break up.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe so. You know, its not up to you to ask the question, LL. Its up to him to end it and come to you when that happens. However, he will do what he wants, when he wants and has made it clear you have no right to question or challenge him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mutual friend is now, of course, condemning me for asking the question I thought I was entitled to ask, and now is blaming me for pushing him right back into OW's arms,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But wasn't he already IN the arms of the OW? How can you "push" him to a place he is already AT? I think she wisely realizes that you should never question him or speak your opinion or make your wishes known.

Alcoholics don't appreciate challenges. They like people who cower at their towering rages. A good rage will shut em right up!

ML,

Maybe so. You know, its not up to you to ask the question, LL. Its up to him to end it and come to you when that happens. However, he will do what he wants, when he wants and has made it clear you have no right to question or challenge him.

So help me. Temporary set back because I opened my big mouth again? Or doomed forever? Anxiety attack like you can't believe.

I don't know what to do. Yes, he was in OW's arms, but he truly was getting very close to getting out. Obviously, if he moved her back out of his apt and dumped her at her friends, and if her message to him last night on his cell referred to the "talk" they were supposed to have that she assumed was to end things, they were at the doorstep.

And then I SCREWED IT ALL UP!

I am so mad at myself right now. I can't take the words back. In your years on this board, do you see this as a huge failure. Or will he settle down and get to that point again?

And what the heck do I do in the mean time?

UGH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

LL

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Quit chasing him and let him come to you. No one likes to be chased. Expect alot and you will get alot. You expect nothing and that is exactly what you are getting.

ML,

First, a comment from an earlier post I wanted to comment on:

I think he knows you would take him back tonight regardless of his position with the OW.

I won't take him back if he's still with her. I was speaking to him, because it really looked hopeful that we were about there, but I will NOT let him back in my house (nor will I go to his apt and fill any of his fuzzy needs) until she is gone. Period.

I did leave him a text after I posted my first message on here tonight. Just said "It breaks my heart that our last calls were so angry. Based on your conversation last night, thought you were done with OW. Excited-just wanted a "for sure". Don't want to argue so will lay low until you chill."

That was probably still chasing, wasn't it? I do have myself convinced that I have so many bad habits and LB's and other flaws that I can't seem to break (things I do over and over even though I know they're wrong or don't work) that my M to WH (or any M involving me) will not work.

So I will go back to "quiet" with him and just wait.

But I'll ask the same dumb question again of you or anyone who wants to comment: Do you still think there's hope that this stupid A will end?

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> ML,

First, a comment from an earlier post I wanted to comment on:

I think he knows you would take him back tonight regardless of his position with the OW.

I won't take him back if he's still with her. I was speaking to him, because it really looked hopeful that we were about there, but I will NOT let him back in my house (nor will I go to his apt and fill any of his fuzzy needs) until she is gone. Period.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But he hasn't lost you, so there is no taking back to be discussed. You are chasing him vigorously so he does have you AND the OW. It hasn't stopped you from vigorously pursuing him so I doubt he believes this condition.

Seriously, LL, he can do what he wants, when he wants and he knows that. He knows all he has to do is pull a timely rage and you will cower in reaction. There is no one to stop him and he knows this.

He yanked your chain in a big way tonight just by huffing and puffing a little bit. Hey, it pays off!

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

He yanked your chain in a big way tonight just by huffing and puffing a little bit.

Yes, he certainly did. Lots of growing for me to do, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My head is also stuffed up with a bad cold and I'm cranky, and am dumb, so you'll have to be specific. (I know you don't think I listen. I actually wish I was a little closer to some of you guys so I could meet you and speak face to face.)

Am I okay in leaving the text I left?

Am I okay just going silent now?

In your opinion, is there still hope that since it appeared OW and WH were so close to ending things (or at least they are getting mighty uncomfortable when they live in the same efficiency apartment--to the point he has to haul her away), do you still think in the end if I can get myself together, we can have a decent chance at remaining married? (renewing the one that is currently pretty well trashed)

What is my next move? (Sit still and shut up, right??)

LL

LL, I don't see any gestures here that would make me think he is interested in fixing his marriage. I mean, what has he done to make you think he is interested in his marriage? Griping about his sweetheart doesn't indicate anything other than his temporary annoyance at the OW. When has he said he wants to move home and fix his marriage? All he said was that he was dropping off the OW.

After he ranted about "Angel" for awhile he probably got it all out of his system and made up. I think you are reading things into his words that simply aren't there.

I also think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Instead of reacting to the whims and moods of a crazy man, why don't you take control of your life and go to Alanon and learn to detach from him? That way you wouldn't be at the mercy of a crazy man. As it is now, you are so attached to him that you can't even think clearly. He is addicted to alcohol, you are addicted to him.

go to Alanon and learn to detach from him

Actually did last Sunday, and planning on going back this Sunday.

As for the M, maybe you're right. Maybe he doesn't care at all about me or making things work ever again. Maybe we are through and I should just move on and forget him. (Just don't know how--it's like cutting out a piece of me.)

I guess I took my hope that things were changing from him saying yesterday he was cutting ties with her, and from the note he left in my car on Monday telling me when he steps back and looks at his life, he wonders how the f*** he got where he is, and that he thinks about the kids and I all the time, and that he loves us. He also told me that night in person (when he came and cleared the snow off my car) that he misses me, the kids, the house, the dogs, and everything and that he has no intentions of filing for D.

But that was then, and tonight is tonight.

But you've probably confirmed what I suspected--I spouted off tonight, and instead of breaking it off, they're probably "making it" right about now.

Maybe mine is truly one of those rare A's that don't eventually end. It's so hard for me to accept that.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> go to Alanon and learn to detach from him

Actually did last Sunday, and planning on going back this Sunday.

As for the M, maybe you're right. Maybe he doesn't care at all about me or making things work ever again. Maybe we are through and I should just move on and forget him. (Just don't know how--it's like cutting out a piece of me.)Maybe mine is truly one of those rare A's that don't eventually end. It's so hard for me to accept that.

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">huh? Maybe I am right about what? I didn't say any of those things you say I am right about, so am not sure what you are talking about.

You shouldn't give up hope, but you shouldn't hang your hopes on BULLSH**. When you see him actually DOING SOMETHING to restore your marriage and work on himself, then you should have hope.

But he didn't even TELL YOU he wanted to work on your marriage and you got your hopes up. He just whined about his girlfriend. It didn't mean anything except he wanted to vent a little bit.

ML,

I have a screwed up brain. I took the following:

LL, I don't see any gestures here that would make me think he is interested in fixing his marriage.

After he ranted about "Angel" for awhile he probably got it all out of his system and made up. I think you are reading things into his words that simply aren't there.

And I analyzed them and said, "LL, you have no hope. Don't you see?"

Do marriages that are this screwed up ever come back??? Seriously? Yes, I am addicted to him, and because I thought I saw some signs of fog lifting, I let myself become more hopeful, because I want so much to believe it will all get better someday (just like all of us BS's want to believe). I live for the hope. It's hard to live and just say "I don't care what happens. I'll be fine." I know I'll live (because I'm still alive now, and there are days I was hoping I wouldn't be), but being alive and being fine are two totally different things.

Truly, I'm not there yet.

LL

LL, no one can predict the future. My point is not that you have no hope, but that you put your hope in false premises. There is no there, there.

Hi LL..I haven't been on MB over the last couple of days and was going through reading threads of those that I try to keep up with. I'm so sorry that things are still not going well. You are so lucky to have Melody Lane in your corner!!!

I know that this has been said probably many times before...but your H hasn't had to wonder yet what life would be like without you, he knows that you are right there waiting for him to decide what HE wants to do. LL...if you can..look at your situation as from a 3rd party perspective. What would you tell the lady whose life you are observing. What advice would you give her? You are making it way too easy for your H and he is no fool, if he can hang on to you and OW without fear of the consequences, he will!

I know that you are stronger than you think. The co-dependant issues that many of us struggle with here are not just substance abuse but emotional and relational as well. God is doing a work in your life that may not be pleasant right now, but he is using this to heal you of things that have probably been there all along but the A has surfaced. I can say that because the same has been true in my life! Right now you may not like or want the pain of how God has chosen to heal you but know that He is right there with you and when you feel alone and feel like no one understands...there is one who does. He knows everything you're feeling and He has seen every tear that you have shed. He will be the lifter of your head.

Lisa,

I know in my mind you are right--God is working something in my life for a reason. I try to remind myself of that, but when the pain gets really intense, it's hard to believe it will ever turn out for the good.

It's also hard to watch my best friend in life walk away from God, and to wonder if he will end up suffering in Hell for permanently turning away and not turning to God before it's too late.

I think that thought (and all the memories, and boxes of photos, and our house, and all the triggers) are what eat at me most. I know I can't save him--Bible says so. But I am about the only person in his life right now who is a believer. OW isn't (though claims she is), and friends and family aren't.

Even my pastor has said, "remember, you're not responsible for the path he chooses." No, but if you love someone with all your heart, it's crushing to think that not only are they rejecting you on earth, but they might not be in Heaven someday.

Some people probably think I'm strange for thinking that--that I should be glad he might get his just reward for the pain he is causing. But I'm not. I do ache for him and for what he's going through--even if it is self-inflicted. I want him to wake up and snap out of it.

The $1,000,000 question is "will he ever?"

LL

Well, for what it's worth, I am desparate for all the help I can get. I just emailed my request for a session with SH. I only have funds enough to comfortably do 1-2 sessions, and he may tell me to go fly my kite because my WH is an alcoholic, but several people posting to these boards say it is helpful.

LL

LL...Just because he may not have your influence as a believer in his life doesn't mean that that limits God's abilities...my heart breaks for you because I can actually glimpse just a little of your pain in reading your thread here. I hope that SH is beneficial to you. I have heard nothing but good things here about him. Changing the subject a bit here but I know that when I went to see The Passion it hit me with intensity that I was the one that Jesus died for. In that same light, I, as a FWW, am the one that is causing your pain. I am so so sorry LL for all of the FWS and WS's that have done this to the BS. The fact that you even respond to anything that I have to say speaks volumes of your character.

Lisa,

14 years ago, I was also a WS. Not a long, drawn out A, but more than I'm willing to disclose here. Nothing that made me want to leave my H. But I maintained occasional contact as a friend for YEARS with the OM, in fact I still know where he is and that he has been through 2 marriages since (and I do wish him the best with his current wife) and I know now how much that must have hurt my H. (Didn't know about MB back then).

I have been the BS twice--once 12 years ago and again now. It is MUCH worse and much more painful this time.

I am not judgemental (except toward current OW and WH). I wish the best to H's former OW. I am no longer angry at her (of course she didn't win). I AM angry at this one.

As for The Passion, I can't go see it, because WH took OW to see it two weekends ago--I'd think about nothing else but that. I hope it really sunk in. He did say he was speechless and basically sick when he left. But it hurts--here are two people who are still legally married to other people, watching what Christ did for them. Seems hypocritical somehow. But it is not for me to judge. They also went to church last Sunday with OW's mother--again, I would have been uncomfortable, but maybe it's God's way of working in him or her.

I just am in such pain because I don't want to let him go. It's hard for me to believe that God's will is for me to lose him, because God hates divorce. But I can't question God.

There is a difference between you and WH's OW. She is a predator. She saw something she liked, she sensed he was weak (unhappy, feeling taken for granted, MLC), and she moved in for the kill because she needed someone to take care of her and lift her from her miserable jobless, moneyless life.

She knew we were still very much married and very much together when she told him she could make him feel young again, and basically offered herself up sexually to him on a platter. And once she got that far she started her work of trying to convince him that it was better on all involved, including the children, for him to get out of an unhappy marriage since he is no longer "in love" with his W. She told me this to my face in December ("Kids don't want their parents to stay together if they're unhappy. They may think they do, but they're much better off in the end if they divorce.")

She, by the way, is a product of divorce. And she's turned out happy and well adjusted??? (My WH is also a product of divorce. I rest my case.)

I need prayers, and courage, and faith. I let myself get hurt because I had such hope just 24 hours ago that his fog was lifting, and it hasn't.

All I can do is try and find strength to hang on and hope that this A dies a natural death like most do. Watch it be one that doesn't.

On my way home tonight, I was trying fiercely to convince myself that it would be better to just D him, get on with my life, and make it my mission to forget our 23 years together somehow.

I'd even figured out the note I wanted delivered with it. "WH, I just realized that although you have said you love me and you miss me, not once have you mentioned that you want to work on restoring our marriage. You take care of her needs, not mine. You are a father to her kids, not ours. Therefore, I am setting you free to live your life, and I'm setting out to find someone who can meet these needs for me and my children. Goodbye."

It was evil--and wrong, I know. And I don't think I could go through with the D because I'm so addicted to him. It feels so wrong, but my logical side says it's fast becoming the right thing to do because he's making no moves to leave her and commit to us.

LL