My views about men have been dramatically reshaped by this forum over the past few years. I am in awe of how this forum has opened my eyes and brought me into new territory.

I should explain a couple of things about myself. I am on my third marriage. And that is no accident. I lost my first 2 husbands because I had no respect for men and treated them like second class citizens. They were there strictly for MY happiness and comfort, NOT the other way around. How dare they expect anything?

See, I was raised by a radical feminist, single, who hated men. She taught her daughters that men were stupid, inferior and evil and that women were superior beings. I seriously believed this all my life. I inherited her seething hatred of men without realizing it. Even though I realized she hated men and consciously rejected such hatred, I still treated men as inferiors. I treated men with disrespect and lost no opportunity to put them down.

I am deeply ashamed of such bigotry. I realize now that all my husbands wanted was love and respect. I gave them nothing but grief and criticism. With my last H of 20 years, I insisted on making all the decisions and put us in a position where he would have to go where MY company transferred us. He eventually became financially dependent on me, which I really liked.

I liked pointing out that all our furniture was purchased BY ME. How humiliating for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> After 10 years of making all the decision ALONE [being so single-handedly competent IAMWOMAN, of course!] I completely burned out. I had destroyed my H's confidence so he could no longer manage anything. Well, neither could I for a couple of years when I plummeted into a deep depression.

Well, that marriage is long gone, he left for a woman who WOULD treat him with respect and look up to him. But this new one does have hope because I treat my H with RESPECT and LOVE. I look up to him. I tell him how much I admire him. I let him make the major decisions or we make them together. It is SUCH a wonderful relief to live with a thinking unemasculated man who can do the heavy lifting when necessary. He makes good decisions for our family and it is so wonderful! It is not all on my shoulders anymore!!

This has all been driven home to me the past week when I have been reading Dr Laura's book, The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. What a wonderful book! It is all about treating men with respect. What a novel concept!! I have already been doing alot of things she suggests but just the new things I have learned are making such an amazing difference.

You know what my H told me last night? That I am his "soul mate." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Isn't that just so cute? Just by practicing the MB principles my H has fallen in love with me.

What a blessing this forum has been for me.

Wow! Congrats! It's a bitter-sweet feeling to have a 'light bulb' moment. But when you use what you've learned it makes it worth it!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, I was raised by a radical feminist, single, who hated men. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So was I.....seriously so was I my dad had an exit affair with his secrectary which began when mother was pregnant with me.

Ironically this message board has worsened my impression of some men. To see so many abuse victims with a face....well sort of face..a username is very scary.

In grad school we are looking at gender inequality and as much or more focus is on the sexaul abuse and violence women face than the "Glass Ceiling" they face in job income and career advancement.

Its very scary to know that 62% of pregnant or parenting teens were past sexual abuse victims. To know that one out of every six women have or will be raped in their lifetime. To know that as high as 1 out of 4 girls have had at least on incident of sex abuse before adulthood.

This is sad indeed. Especially as watch my "daddy's little girl" approach puberty.

Okay all I am doing is validating MelodyLane's mother....yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

stunneddad, I know that the glass ceiling #s were manufactured, I wonder if the same thing happened with "violence" #s? As a career woman I have always cringed when I hear that women can't cut it in the workplace as well as men, it sure doesn't speak to our claim that we are "equal," does it? We aren't too equal if we can't keep up with the guys.

I'm just happy for you for your marriage being a happy one..

I'm not going to get into the equality debate.

*hides*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by becomingaman:
<strong> I'm just happy for you for your marriage being a happy one..

I'm not going to get into the equality debate.

*hides* </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahem, so you don't think we can cut it, huh???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Melody,

A very interesting post. I am not sure what to say about it, other than I am glad you and your H are benefiting from your new insights.

God Bless,

JL

Recently read some in-depth studies re the glass ceiling, and there seems to be a coming realization (amongst both male and females who study sych things) that there is no longer a glass ceiling at all, and further that women have pretty much achieved parity. Apparently the "statistical" facts that look like a glass ceiling, are actually the outcomes of the psychological differences between males and females and how they make career choices....very interesting. It sorta boils down to males are more willing to make the sacrifices (commit more time, energy etc.) to business "compeition" than females. Those females who make similar sacrifices, do in fact move up....and those males who choose to have a "life" instead....don't move up. The point being women (stastically) are less willing to give up their lives to penetrate the "glass" ceiling.....to thier credit IMO. So this gives the impression they are being held back....when in fact, they are choosing not to compete at those levels...choosing freely. This should not come as any big surprise (that males and females approach life differently)...but it sure is annoying to those whose agenda is based on the nonsensical notion females are just males with different plumbing.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">stunneddad, I know that the glass ceiling #s were manufactured, I wonder if the same thing happened with "violence" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How exactly do you "know" that the glass ceiling numbers were manufactured - I know no such thing. I doubt very much if the violence numbers are overstated - based on what I have seen in this forum, many, of the WS's (of both sexes) were sexually or physically abused as children. As the mother of one son and 5 daughters, I find those numbers very scary.

There is nothing wrong with your husband moving to accommodate your career - thousands of wives have moved to accomodate their husband's career.

Like stunned dad, this forum has worsened my impression of men (and women, for that matter). Reading of the horrible, hurtful and stupid things people (even those who have been betrayed themselves) routinely do in the pursuit of "feeling good" is very depressing.

Nellie, please don't turn my positive uplifting thread into a women are dumbasses and can't cut it thread, ok? Don't turn it into a sickening male bashing expedition. I have heard that wimpering, whiny victim mentality crap all my life and no longer have the patience for it. It is a bunch of manufactured CRAP.

If you want to start a poor old broad thread, go do it on someone else's dime. This thread is about treating men with RESPECT and LOVE, not about whining about our poor lot in life. Thanks.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melody - Congrats on a new, exciting way of living. Your perspective is so refreshing compared to most of the victimology feelings in MB. I congratulate you and admire you greatly for having the guts to post this. Dr. Laura's book is wonderful. I cried all the way through it. I respect you for daring to be different and applying the principles in the book. God will bless you for your teachable spirit and willingness to change. You have touched my heart this morning. Thank you and God bless!

Ooops I've done it again started a social issue debate in the middle of a marriage forum.

What's the old saying figures don't lie but liars know how to figure.

What is known is that only 5% of the CEO's of Fortune 500 are women. I think that is what is used to support the glass ceiling.

Also based on salary surveys women make 72 cent on the dollar compared to men.

Half of that 28 cent difference can be explained in human capital measures. Women are more likely to have their careers impacted by family rearing issues. Less senority because of breaks in careers for child bearing.

But using every reasonable measure to justify the difference in non-gender terms still leaves the same woman with the same experience and qualificatons making 10% less than a man. And when applied to a 40 career with a college degree that is over a quarter of a million dollars in lower income that appears to be gender only related....and of course since many pensions are based on a percent of the last two years salaries that inequality extends all the way to death.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:
<strong> Ooops I've done it again started a social issue debate in the middle of a marriage forum.

What's the old saying figures don't lie but liars know how to figure.

What is known is that only 5% of the CEO's of Fortune 500 are women. I think that is what is used to support the glass ceiling.

Also based on salary surveys women make 72 cent on the dollar compared to men.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And feminist groups are known [unrepentent] liars when it comes to reporting. For example, remember the claim that wife beatings went way up after football games? It was repeated ad nauseum in the press after being released by a feminists group at a major university. No one bothered to investigate for years, but when someone did, it turned out to be a complete fabrication. So yes, numbers lie and so do people. Especially feminists.

Not sure what you are trying to imply here, many women are not CEO's, NOT because they are stupid or inept, but because they make career choices that often do not LEAD to such positions. They don't seek those positions as often as men. I should emphasize that it does not reflect on their intelligence or aptitude, only their lifestyle choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also based on salary surveys women make 72 cent on the dollar compared to men.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And based on Dept of Labor figures, this difference is accounted for in the fact that women take the lions share of part-time jobs. Men don't take part-time jobs. Even so, I don't appreciate the inference that women are not smart enough to make as much as men in the workplace.


I don't know what all this has to do with showing respect and admiration to men, but I sure do not appreciate your attempt to turn my thread into a female bashing expedition. Sure, we have our shortcomings, but we have made huge inroads in the workplace over the past 30 years.

Perhaps I should change the title to "Women are Stupid" and just let you and Nellie have at it?

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even so, I don't appreciate the inference that women are not smart enough to make as much as men in the workplace.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody a racist wouldn't bring up issues of discrimination.....sexist don't either. So I am neither.

I made no inference to women not being smart that was your assumption...what I did in fact point out that men do discriminate against women for their own selfish gains. Blacks are discriminated as well. And they are often discriminated against soley because they are black period.

Melody as for the pay difference it was like occupation comparison not part time versus full time. It compared accountants to accountants, lawyers to lawyers, doctors to doctors and so on.
Not a the tupperware mom versus the CEO of Walmart.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

Melodylane,

I have no idea why you interpreted my post as male-bashing or that women are dumb. I certainly do not think that women are less intelligent than men or that all men are out to get them. There is a great deal of evidence that the glass ceiling does exist, as stunned dad substantiated so well in the post above. It is a societal issue.

I am concerned that you seem to be blaming yourself for your 2nd husband's infidelity and ascribing far too much power to yourself. Did you hold a gun to his head to make him move? Did you convince him to move under false pretenses and then abandon him? No? Then it was his choice to move, and there is nothing wrong with that. Pointing out that you bought the furniture is not very kind, but he could have objected - he could have pointed out his contributions to the family (I assume he had some) - or he could even have just told you to stuff a sock in it. You did not cause him to have an affair. Most affairs, except of the "entitlement" variety, are the result of depression and deep-seated self-esteem issues. If your self-esteem is intact, no amount of beratement by your spouse can destroy it - it will just make you angry.

Your current husband had an affair early on in your relationship, which is a really bad sign, and apparently believes in the concept of soulmates (yuck). There is certainly nothing wrong with treating spouses with respect and love, but I fear that you are hoping that by being submissive, you will somehow prevent him from straying again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody a racist wouldn't bring up issues of discrimination.....sexist don't either. So I am neither.

I made no inference to women not being smart that was your assumption...what I did in fact point out that men do discriminate against women for their own selfish gains. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you have produced no evidence that men discriminate against women. You have only produced a number and pulled a completely unsubstantiated inference out of the air. We all know the point is to paing women as poor hapless victims at the hands of mean old white men.

HOWEVER, also inherent in your conclusion is the is the notion that women are dependent upon men for positions of power. How strange. Who GAVE those positions to men? Are you saying that women are not clever enough to reach positions of power as did men?

Over my lifetime, I have been dancing around what it takes to be a good wife, through my first marriage (20 years) and into my second (going on 3 years)...

I have gone from being a b*ll-busting b*tch to a "submissive wife" and everything in between. Mostly, since being here (at MB) I have not been at my strongest, and I think that has more to do with the reason I came here in the first place... infidelity has got to be among the highest ranking ego-crushers there is. Talk about taking your self-esteem down a notch!

This place (MB) has taught me a lot about people - both men and women. I have seen woundings and healings, hatred and compassion, self-loathing and self-love... what I don't see is very much balance. I am very guilty of that myself.

I try to treat everyone with love and respect, but am not always successful. My emotions tend to get in the way. It *is* my desire though... if that is seen as weak or syrupy (as I have been called by some) then so-be-it. When it's necessary, I can fight to the death. Sometimes the respect you need to give most is to yourself.

And sometimes, your choices won't fit another's situation. There is no one-size-fits-all answer to many of life's problems. But the one thing that is true of EVERYONE, is that they want love and respect. What could possibly be wrong with THAT message?

MelodyLane,

Who would have thought that love and respect could be refuted? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
Melodylane,

I have no idea why you interpreted my post as male-bashing or that women are dumb. I certainly do not think that women are less intelligent than men or that all men are out to get them. There is a great deal of evidence that the glass ceiling does exist, as stunned dad substantiated so well in the post above. It is a societal issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well no, it is not substantiated at all. It is not a societal issue, it is a manufactured "feminist" issue that only reflects badly on females.

I realize that many folks believe there is some kind of weird 'empowerment" in portraying women as victims, but it really is not empowering at all. It is denigrating as it makes women look stupid and incompetent.

Nellie, there is no REAL empowerment in victimization. There is empowerment in acheivment. Please don't pander to this sick victim mentality. It does nothing to help women.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is certainly nothing wrong with treating spouses with respect and love, but I fear that you are hoping that by being submissive, you will somehow prevent him from straying again. [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie, what an odd, but revealing statement. That you equate treating men with respect and love as being "submissive?" I fear that says a little more about you than it does me, dear.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by new_beginning:
<strong>

MelodyLane,

Who would have thought that love and respect could be refuted? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen to that! I seem to have brought out the long knives, haven't I, Sheryl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Melody if you would have read my first post without trying to infere something negative in it you would have seen that my response was to say I came to the opposite conclusion.

That it bothered me to be able to run off a list of newbies that had been sexually abused.... i'm precious, MilWfFW, Alegna, HoldingMyselfAccountable to name just a few recently joined members.

Bothered me even more to realize that many veterans with whom I have great respect were also abuse victims... ThornedRose, Suzet, WFLOWER, bygrace, hanora and so on.

I stressed that I was bothered by the terrible sexual violence aimed at women because I now knew via usernames some victims rather than read about them in the paper.

I expressed my shame as a man that these things happened and concern for my young daughter as a parent.

All this other political bickering was not in my first post but drawn out by your response.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>