</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sj *trouble*:
<strong>

I believe that we limit ourselves when we attempt to define ourselves through the limitations of others. Freedom has a cost. The cost of freedom of choice is often laced within the choices we make. For instance, if I choose to be a stay at home mom, I'm giving up my 'right' to be the CEO of a grand and glorious Fortune 500 Firm. If I choose to be the CEO, I'm giving up my 'right' to be a stay at home mom. I have choices. I make them daily. I realize that along with choices come the costs of my own pleasures.

That is the reality that goes along with freedom of choice.

Blessings,

Jan </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Outstanding points, Jan. It emphasizes the notion that women CAN take responsibility for their decisions. We can be accountable!

ya know melody, I think the same applies to racism... that is more of a legtimate issue...but IMO the radical organizations who see racism behind every bush, and keep their constituency riled up are doing them a diservice....racism as a national policy is finished, gone...and our nation rapidly (and maybe that is not a good thing, but another issue) becoming multi-national/racial/ethnic etc. People (the rank and file) need to fully realize big organizations...whether it is the UAW, NOW, or the ACLU et al.... have their own agenda as well, and it usally includes not the slightest concern for it's members....just their money and their support. All these big organizations are nothing but power bases in our socio/economic/politcal paradigm... and attract those who seek power, and to exercise it. This is not a bad thing, beats the warlord paradigm hands down....the trouble is in getting rid of or modifying these organizations when they are no longer needed....the power mongers never leave peacefully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> you have to pry em out, and send them packing.

I L*O*V*E MEN!!!!!!

I was raised by a real man .... my Dad is awesome .... and I've always loved MEN ..... probably thanks to Dad.

Pep

Hi Mel - your initial post was very refreshing. Candor in revelations like yours makes me wonder when mine will come? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There HAS to be something dreadfully wrong with me given my abysmal track record in relationships, although my GF of almost 18 months says I'm normal. Maybe we're BOTH sick? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Now to the societal issue:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Rather than a glass ceiling in top companies, I see enormous opportunity for women because companies are frantic to find women for these positions so as not be accused of discrimination. I see lots of women in positions of power that have no business being there, too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I work for a major federal government and I can say with confidence that the glass ceiling is rather a rocket powered elevator! A one way ticket for any non-white male "victim" who can do at least an adequate job (and some whom I wonder how they find their way home after work). The Feds have to set an example, you know! That said, I work with some extremely competent "examples" who openly sigh that their justified advancement may appear cheapened by their status in a group.

But I'm glad I have a job and I don't complain. We federal, middle aged white males joke about our birth defect that prevents further advancement - a white penis. Oh well. It could be a lot worse!

Yo, Sheryl!! How are YOU????

You know me Mel, I couldn't agree more.

Can you share some of the tips or ideas presented in the book that you found novel or unexpected? I've thought about getting it but don't have lots of time to read.

Today I was perturbed with H because he's had a skin condition for a couple of weeks and just saw the MD last week and made no mention of it at his visit. In his mind he was there for his BP and spaced about his other problem. He complained this morning about it and I saw that the initial skin problem worsened to the point where it predisposed him to ring worm and now we have what could be a problem for the whole family. As a nurse I was angry. I yammered at him and pulled the sheets off the bed and told him he has to sleep on the couch until he gets it cleared up. I was mad too because now we must pay for another MD visit.

After the kids were gone to school he said I made him feel "unclean" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I hugged him and told him how sorry I was. I had backslid into my old ways of yammering to the point of making him feel "less than". It's never good for one spouse to make the other feel "less than". He's far from less than, he's GRAND! I know most of the time he feels I'm grand as well. I can make it difficult for him to feel that way though, when I fail to treat him with LOVE and RESPECT. Your point is very well taken this morning and like I said before I couldn't agree more. Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>
Yo, Sheryl!! How are YOU???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey there!!!! I've missed talking to you! I do lurk a bit (but don't always post)... and have seen some of your recent struggles. I've also seen your successes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Don't want to muck up ML's thread, so I'll just tell you that it's been rough lately-- and yet -- as always, there is good to be found too!

TR asked about me last week when she saw me reply to another thread... and a few pages back on EN's is a proper update (she called me out, that sneaky woman! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Thanks for asking!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is insulting to see your attempt to pander undeserved sympathy by portraying us as hapless victims. I realize that you have some hard feelings about men, but what in the world does sexual abuse and violence have to do with treating with men with respect and kindess?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody were your reading my post or inserting your own views into it......

What did say? I said because OF THIS BOARD and the number of USERS on this board THAT HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED.......get it understand quit injecting outside thoughts yours are as insulting and more so becuase you attempt to tell me what I was thinking. You are attempting to make my personal experience with know victims on this board a quasi agenda on my part and that simply is the case.

My experience.....my experience....my experience NOT your political views on feminism, sexism or any other ism. You disgarded the bulk of my post to make claims as to what you thought I was or wasn't infering.

What is insulting is your attempt to impose your views on my post as if you can somehow tell what I am or am not thinking because you inferred.

Dear Melody.
Your first message was very uplifting.

And then when someone said something you didn't quite agree with; your kindness stopped!
You became very opinionated, headstrong and very over-reacting.

It must be hard for you to be a submissive wife and allow your husband to be the head of your home with your unyielding, almost offensive & rude, attitude!
Sincerely, Julie

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

It must be hard for you to be a submissive wife and allow your husband to be the head of your home with your unyielding, almost offensive & rude, attitude!

Exactly how does appreciating and cherishing your husband equal being a submissive wife???

I also want to say that I have a hard time with the rape numbers...seem extremely extremely high...and if you factor in the number of reported rapes vs un-reported rapes...the number would even be higher....

one out of every six women raped...sounds more like Bosnia or Iraq/Iran numbers than US numbers...
and this is NOT to deny or dismiss or reflect on the bringer of the numbers...just really hard to believe...
and being in the health care profession it's not like I am that far removed from the front lines of rape...

nellie said..
Like stunned dad, this forum has worsened my impression of men (and women, for that matter). Reading of the horrible, hurtful and stupid things people (even those who have been betrayed themselves) routinely do in the pursuit of "feeling good" is very depressing.

this forum has bettered (bettered...not a word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) my impression of men and women..what I see are people who get lost for a while...and find there way back...hopefully back home...

I also have heard that the numbers on the glass ceiling do not factor in womens choice to raise families and avoid over-traveling...so they choose not to take higher end jobs which equal less time at home...

that men rarely choose such extreme opposites...
and again that's not attacking any ones opinion...it is what I have heard...

ark

I have a good friend that realized for the 20 years of their marriage, she was NOT being the submissive wife as commanded in the Bible.
She was making most all the decisions and her husband just went along.

One day she was led by the God, to put on his pants, shirt, belt and shoes and was sitting in his lazy boy when he came home from work.

When he asked why she had on his clothes, she appologized for being the 'head of the home' and said she wanted to be the wife God wanted her to be.
He cried and opened up to her and expressed the many times he was hurt by her 'authority' in the marriage.

She told me just yesterday, that their marriage is better than it ever has been.
Oh, by the way, under the clothes of his she had put on; she was wearing a flimsy nightie and the rest of the story is theirs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Love, Julie

Melody,

When I first posted I simply said I had nothing to say but to congratulate you on your happiness and new found insights.

I have since sat here and been absolutely stunned at how a comment such as you made had prompted so many orthogonal but negative posts.

In summary most of them said "Yes BUT..."

If anyone has done any reading on this site, those two words "YES BUT..." do more to destroy perspective, love, marriages than just about anything.

I just find it remarkable. I reflect on Stunned Dad's post, that he thinks was NOT negative, but what was the purpose of refocusing on the failures of a few men. Yes a few. The statistics show that.

I reflect on an airplane flight I was on a decade or so ago when a women I was seated next to informed me that it was a KNOWN fact that when divorce occured men's income went up and women's down. I asked her which company gave you a pay raise for getting a divorce. I enquired as to where it was where two dwellings were cheaper than one, where child support, division of assets somehow totalled to more than the original whole. She sputtered and said 'You just don't understand'.

She was right I didn't understand how she could be so stupid. Years later it was shown that the study upon which that interesting piece of fiction was based was wrong and the methodology wouldn't pass in an 8th grade science class.

Mel, I understand your worry, because comments such as have been made here make women look weak, like hopeless victims and make a glass ceiling look like a GREAT IDEA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I will refer everyone to the famous quote:

"There are lies.

There are damn lies.

And then there are statistics."

Melody, I just amazed how this has turned out. I do hope that when you feel like posting something positive in your life or that you have you learned in your life, that you will still do so. I think it is very healthy to see the good in people.

I also think people are a lot like physicians. Until NASA began the manned space program there had NEVER been a study of what it meant to be a HEALTHY HUMAN being. All of the studies had been of sick people, because that was where the easy data was, and that is what the physician addressed. The HARD data came when trying to figure out what it meant to be healthy because no "symptoms" present themselves.

It is easy to focus on the rare and the scandalous, but not so easy to put it in perspective.

I have a lot more to say as people are now starting to tread into my area's of interest. But, I really wanted to wish you the best Melody, and to thank you for posting something that was NOT bashing someone one or that didn't deal with pain and loss but success.

God Bless,

JL

I also kept going back and re-reading the original post to see if what I read was different from the some of the responses...

when that didn't work I kept shaking my monitor like an etch-n-sketch to see if that cleared it up.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ark

dp

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: TMD ]</small>

Why does she such a problem with people disagreeing with her? The nerve of some people actually having their own point of view.

And JL you can't have it both ways. You use statistics to support YOUR views and then dismiss other people use of them.

TMD "Why does she have such a problem with people disagreeing with her? The nerve of some people actually having their own point of view."

That was worded wonderfully, just what I wanted to say!!!

JL and Ark, I know you and Melody are good friends and go way back on this board.

Had she been a 'newer poster', you would have probably commented on her 14 posts, many of which were very negative towards anyone's opinions or views that were in anyway different than her own. (Look how she blasted Nellie!)

Sincerely, Julie
P.S. This takes our minds off our own problems for awhile! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

JL and Ark, I know you and Melody are good friends and go way back on this board.

Had she been a 'newer poster', you would have probably commented on her 14 posts, many of which were very negative towards anyone's opinions or views that were in anyway different than her own. (Look how she blasted Nellie!)

Nope see what I don't understand is that how such a postive original post...and buhleeve me it has nothing to do with melody posting it...truth is i could have posted that post ...in fact I have posted those very sentiments..
on my old treatment of my husband...
and I don't think I treated men bad...I was worse...I think I believed other guys were great it was just my husband who was geeked out...
I shudder at that thought...

so I am amazed at the turn this took...I also would be defensive if I started a post that was this personal about changes I had made....and then it was turned into something I am barely able to follow the reasoning on...

Why would such a post that is so positive about men...be placed under such attack..(though I use the word attack lightly ..believe me...)

and again will ask ...how cherishing your husband is equal to being submissive in some negative connotative way.... is beyond my thinking...
which pretty much happened on the first page...
and then the forth page...


this is not defending melody for the sake of friendship...
and though I always say I hate debating here...because I am not sure this is the right forum to debate...I always get myself right in it...
I make myself sick...

and i do find the statistics highly surprising...especially when factoring in unreported rapes...which I believe is a higher number...
that is not attacking the person who quoted the numbers...

ark

Melody:

I appreciated your post! It was very encouraging to me. (I won't address the posts that came after...they just left me saying "huh?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

I also appreciate the book reference. I think I'll try and find it during lunch tomorrow.

Thanks for your input here on MB.

Lori

Melody - Please keep us up to date as to the progress you are making in your M. I need some good news. I know there are times you feel like a voice crying in the wilderness. Again, I tell you that God is pleased when a man or woman faces their issues and are pro-actively moving for change. I think you are to be commended further because of your feminist upbringing. It takes a wise and humble person to change their ways after first being indoctrinated.

Jan - Excellent observations!

Pepperband - Careful with that I LOVE MEN stuff! I dared to share that I LOVE WOMEN on a past thread and was taken to the woodshed. Maybe if I had said I LOVE THE SPOTTED OWL, OR THE WHALES, OR ROSIE'S WEDDING, OR ..................

Dear dear Ark.
In response to this statement:
"and again will ask ...how cherishing your husband is equal to being submissive in some negative connotative way.... is beyond my thinking."

Having a submissive/meek 'will' towards our beloved husband is beautiful and in no way negative.

Actually it is kinda like living your entire life with a Plan A gracious attitude!
Love, Julie

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>