I have been sustained through months and months of chaos in our family by people on this Web site. In December, I sat my husband down, told him that the marriage counselor was telling me he was a narcissist and I should go into a long-term separation, and said we can try MarriageBuilders or not -- his choice. I didn't threaten, but I was considering serving him with divorce papers on the second anniversary of his breaking my arm.

If anyone is interested in hearing about it, I'd be happy to share my experiences regarding the program with you. It's very time-consuming because we are supposed to spend 15 hours per week together. It is also touch and go for us at the moment because there is so much animosity, but the house is much, much calmer.

If anyone is interested, let me know, and I'll keep you updated periodically. There are 24 lessons to the course, and we are in the third lesson -- selfish demands.

Of course we are interested! Post post post!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Amy

Good for you!

Do not post anything too personal is my (so called) advice.

If your H is sincere and works very hard to rise to the level of good husband .... I think you might regret any intimate details you've posted here.

Speak in generalities .... out of respect for your husband's willingness.

My 2 pennies.

Pep

Sure, share!

I am SO HAPPY to see you changed your ID name!
The broken arm WAS an accident (He was scared, angry and upset and he tried to stop you from calling the OW, however he did not know he would break your arm in the process!
He must have felt very ashamed and also the fact that so many people knew that HE was to blame.

It must feel like a thorn in his heart everytime this is mentioned or to see your ID name here at MB.

It takes a big kind heart to truly forgive and not keep re-hashing past 'sins' over and over.
You seem to be there in your marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Love, Julie
'Cherished' is beautiful and what you are!

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Well, it very touch and go. Harley says there are three states in marriage: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. As part of our lesson, as we go through the LB course, we discuss those three states. I last felt in intimacy at the end of our first month of marriage, and he last felt in intimacy when our first child was born 3/3/1/94. Harley's program forces people to spend 15 hours/week together, so it forces people into intimacy.

Our 3rd lesson is on selfish demands. We realized that we both quit making demands of any sort. We live in chaos. For example, the kids have one set of rules when Dad is home and another when he is not. I simply don't participate in child discipline when he is home because he has turned on me in front of the children.

I can say it is very up and down. There is a tendency to dwell on the past. If you look at the bottom of the MB web site, there is private e-mail. This is for people in the program to contact Harley and get replies from him. I have found this helpful.

One thing that is very disturbing is that Harley focuses on finding win-win solutions to problems. He says that win-lose solutions tend to turn one person into the person who sacrifices, and that results in a bad marriage. Well, I'm in a group called Familia which is geared towards stay-at-home Moms and preaches that very thing. One of my friends and I are getting together today at lunch. She views her own reluctance to sacrifice as a sign of her selfishness. Harley says that a spouse's desire to let a spouse suffer is a sign of their selfishness! What I am saying is there is no accident I got into this marriage. I believed that sacrifice was equivalent to love.

I also got into a long e-mail exchange with Harley about forgiveness. He says forgivenes is conditional on changed behavior of the spouse.

I have gained almost 40 pounds in two years. That is just incredible. I think food was my anti-depressent of choice. There was not any decision to eat, I just ate and didn't really notice how much I was eating. I think that the conflict for me was between warped views of religious principles like sacrifice and forgiveness and staying married.

So -- my goal right now is that we each actually continue in the program. Either of us can end it, and I think that both of us see this as a final try. The incentive is that the end result is supposed to be a great marriage instead of a tolerable one.

Dear Cherished:

I love your new name!!!

I have very little time today, but I wanted to write you a quick note. I am so glad that you are going throughthe MB program. Things had to change in your M. You were not happy, it was not even tolerable. I find it is always good to learn...I think if there is good will on both sides (yours and Tom's), you can make it. You are so right, when you say, that you want a good M. A happy one.

I always told my H, that I would not settle for an average co-existence. I wanted true love, passionate, pink clouds type of love. And you know what...we have just exactly that love now.

You have been with me throught the bad lows that I had in my M: the d-day, the violence, the times when I wanted to run...

INEVER THOUGHT H AND I WOULD GET TO THIS POINT IN RECOVERY. I have forgiven the A, I trust him again, we are in love again with each other, we are happy and at peace. I feel this time it is the end of the tunnel. I feel so much better that a year ago.

It is possible to find happiness again, Cheri, even after everything that has happened. I will only remind you of one important thing: the change in me came when I wanted to change. When I opened up to H. When I decided I wanted to allow myself to love him again. When I accepted the risk of maybe being hurt again...maybe never.

Don't forget about this point: Not only Tom has to change (and he is changing!! Yeah!!!), you also have to work on that change in your heart.

O.K.?

You go girl...learn what you can...learning is never wrong!!!

I have been on a roller coaster emotionally and have posted more than half of the questions that Dr. Harley has answered in the follow-up e-mail section. It's downright embarassing, but I am getting the picture. Harley is beginning to sound like a broken record (not an insult). What he emphasizes is to go through the program, which is extremely structured, and set aside any and all reservations about what the end result will be. Right now, we are on Lesson 3. We listened to about 30 minutes of a taped talk by Dr. Harley, we each read the Love Busters chapter on Selfish Demands and each used a highlighter so the other person could see what we thought important, reviewed the Principals at the end of the chapter, answered the questions at the end of the chapter, and now are working on questions in the Workbook. It's so structured that, while difficult emotionally, it is broken into pieces that can be done. For example, can we listen to a 1/2 hour tape together? Yes.

The core of the program is to commit to spending 15 hours per week together. We've done some juggling to try to accomplish this. For example, Tom joined the gym where I exercise so we can exercise together. Also, I have arranged with two other families to have family playdates -- in other words, our kids go to their house for a playdate while we go out.

Today, we had lunch together as part of those 15 hours. I have the pre-schoolers in an hourly childcare. Tom told me that I have such a negative attitude that there is no point in continuing and he is ready to quit. He said he's done bad things but he's not a bad person. I said "your choice" and he said he was offended by that because it's my bad attitude that is destroying any chance of our making it. What we need is a commitment to success. I told him that Harley told me that attitude doesn't matter. What matters is the willingness to go through the program. His response: "Go live with Harley."

I am having some difficulty with clarity in the program. For example, we are to spend 15 hours per week in Undivided Attention. I asked a question about whether time that turns out to be unpleasant (an example would be today's lunch) counts. He said it does, just try to make it pleasant the next time. We actually schedule and track time, noting when we don't make our planned time together. It seems contrived, but last week we got to 12 hours.

Another question is what selfish demands are. It turns out that they are requests to a spouse to DO something, not requests to NOT DO something. For example, I demanded that Tom not see Sophia. Technically, that is not a demand in Harley's program.

It is a real struggle to do this because Tom is still so nasty to me. For example, on Monday he said, "I need time away from you to think things through, and I don't give a d ... if you don't like it."

I have made a personal commitment to continue in this program to the end, trying to follow it to the letter, accept if Tom decides to drop out, and see what happens. It's really hard, but if we divorce, I have to live with it for the rest of my life. It almost seems as if he is trying to provoke me to end the marriage -- you won't forgive me, you have a bad attitude, you want to create rules, you won't accept what I have done... I am starting to sound like a broken record back to Tom. "I'm willing to go through the program and suspend judgment until we are done. If you choose not to go through it, that's your choice.

Please pray for us!

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

The amazing thing about this program is that it is so structured. What he said is "independent behavior." He does what he pleases without regard for me. I need to bide my time until we get to that chapter.

Please post! I need encouragement!

I have sent Harley perhaps 20 e-mails in the last week, all of which he has responded to within 24 hours. He knows what's going on. I'm actually being somewhat obnoxious about it, but I figure that our M may end within days.

If you look in the courses information, what we paid for was the course (listed as $200) plus the accountability portion. I am not sure if we got a different deal from what is offered because we were the first to get the course without attending the MB Weekend. I wasn't sure our M would last until the new program came into the office and so I was calling to see when it would arrive. What Harley has is the MB Weekend (I think it's $695 per couple) which includes the MB follow up program with the accountability portion, the follow up courses only ($200) or the follow up courses with the accountability program. What we have is the follow up courses with the accountability program.

You can go in the MB section on courses to see information. The real key is that both spouses have to be willing and usually at least one is the "reluctant spouse." Well, Tom is definitely reluctant, and I am viewing this something I am willing to try but am not too hopeful will be successful. I think what he really does is end bad marraiges, and I am willing to end a bad marriage. If we can make it great, that's incredible. If we can't, then I want it ended.

As for how I got the course, I called the radio program perhaps 20 times over the last two years, the first time I e-mailed the show two weeks after the first kiss, he said call OW's husband, and I didn't. I realized from the radio show that Harley did personal counseling and I asked if I could get it. Harley did take us on pro bono as a couple, but it turns out I prefer the program because I am queasy even talking on the phone with a man about our marriage. I prefer e-mail support, which is part of the program. He did talk with my husband on the phone because of the physical abuse. He wanted to make sure that Tom had the attitude that he is responsible for controlling his abuse and while he is still emotionally and verbally abusive the last time he was physically abusive was before D-day.

Harley does say to wait for the next chapter. What he says is to address each issue in order and not try to straighten out your whole marriage all at once. My H is just awful to our daughter. The next chapter is disrespectful judgments, and I am eager for it.

We've spent maybe $6,000 on marriage counseling. This course has been more valuable because you see the whole of it before you even start. I am very skeptical that it will work except to end the marriage, but I told my H that I will suspend doubt until we complete the program.

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

They just changed the program. In fact, the receptionist told me that we were the first couple getting the program without having first attended the MB weekend. We got the program just a few weeks ago.

Without the MB Weekend, we had a misunderstanding about how to proceed. We started off with the Love Busters course because our relationship is so negative and the result was a focus on the negative. Dr. Harley recommended we consider switching to the His Needs/Her Needs course immediately or, at minimum, after the fifth Love Busters lessons. The first two lessons of Love Busters are introductory and the next three are on the abusive habits of Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts. There's no need to do anything at the moment -- Tom is sleeping. I have concluded that, at minimum, this course will end a bad marriage, and that is a good thing. A bad marriage is worse than divorce. I am realizing that our kids are incredibly disrespectful -- they've had excellent role models. Luckily, they are young, and things can be turned around. The other things that I am realizing are that there is no point looking at the past -- the only thing that can be changed is the present and the future -- and that I am responsible for my behavior and choices and Tom is responsible for his. If he opts out of the program, that is his choice.