I would like to know how people deal with things like separate vacations after a betrayal.

I have found myself feeling lots of insecurity about some of those things and I'm not sure how I should react to it. It would be really helpful if someone would read my message and maybe respond with an idea.

I had a 2nd D-Day last August with same OW, however we have made some process since then, even though it is not easy, especially since my husband is sometimes still off and on in contact with her. I have found forgiveness in my heart, but I'm still struggeling at times. Some days are better than other, even though the better days now outnumber the bad ones for us. I guess that's a good sign.

Later this year, my husband would like to take a trip to Europe with some of his buddies. It's supposed to be a birthday party for one of his friends. While I think, it's a great idea and maybe before the EA, I would have probably not had a problem with it, I now feel lots of insecurity about it. I'm afraid that when around the 'boys', lots of liquor in the bars and women, he might not be able to be strong enough and that he might have another A. How should I deal with my feelings and worries? My husband's friends are making fun of me and they are provoking him, telling him not to let me 'hold him back'. I don't want them to think that I'm a controlling and possessive wife, but they also do not know about our background and his EA.

Kati

kati

Sorry to meet you here, but there is no better place to find yourself (double entendre intended) than on this website if you are looking for honesty and heartfelt advice, coming from people who have experienced something similar to what you have.

So let's start with honesty. You indicate there is still some contact between WS and OP. Everyone here that is familiar with Marriage Builders principles will tell you that affair is not over.

In not knowing how familiar you are with MB, let me assume you are not. You need to explore this website extensively, and familiarize yourself with the information here. You should get a copy of Surviving an Affair, and read it, and become familiar with it very soon.

Affairs are not over until there is NO CONTACT with the OP. And there is a proscribed manner in which that should take place.

My recommendation for you is to get the book, read it, read other posts here, and the responses, and make a decision for YOU, as to whether or not YOU believe the seperate vacation should take place. Right now, I'm not sure that is what should be foremost on your mind.

Other board vet's will respond to you, and their opinions may vary from mine, but that's my 2 cents worth.

SD

Hi kati,

I agree with SD.Your WH cannot be having on and off spells of contact with OW and be committed to you and your marriage.That has to stop.It's no wonder you feel insecure and if what you say about your WH's friends is true then,who the heck needs friends like that?? Instead of encouraging him to be a loving,caring H they are "provoking" him and being disrespectful toward you too.Ugh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well,you have a tough decision to make.Are you going to maintain this status quo or are you going to step up to the plate and require that your WH have NO more contact? I would worry about this vacation another day.Some questions need to be addressed first.

I can't say that I have ever met or known a woman whose insecurities weren't justified,at least in some way.It is a big indicator as to how we feel within our relationships with men,IMO.Looking back in my own life as I write this I can see several times where I felt insecure about my WH(not wayward back then) and see that I was justified because of his thoughtless behavior.

I think if I were in your shoes,I would sit down and have a heart to heart talk with the ole hubby and tell him what you are feeling.But the biggie here is that continued contact with OW.She needs to back off and get her own life.He needs to tell her that too,not is so many words though.If he refuses then,"Houston,we have a problem".

Keep us posted.

O

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Hi Octobergirl,

Well, he is not going to tell his this. I've read MB over and over and I really should be in Plan B. It's just not as easy and I have such a difficult time with it. I don't have any family in this country. I have some friends, but they do not know about our problems. I'm just so embarrassed about everything. He's been talking to OW again every day because right now she has family problems and he's her therapist. He will always be there for her and even if I move out, he would never cease contact. Heck, it's been like this for eight years, why would it change now? My husband is also very stubborn and used to having his way. I'm partially to blame because I let him have it. The EA goes on because I tolerate it, it's as easy as that.

Next month, I'm going back to school. Hopefully this will help me take my mind off a bit. It really sucks living like this. Sometimes I wish that I would just meet someone else, but of course I'm not looking.

What hurts me the most is that he tells her everything about me. I feel like there is this person out there who knows so much about me, my marriage problems etc. and it feels strange.

Kati

Kati,

I'm sorry for the situation you are in.What a mess.Your WH being the OW's therapist is just so...WRONG on so many levels! Especially discussing you with her. But you are right though.This life you have will continue on as long as you let it.If that's what you are willing to accept then there is not much we can offer here except an ear.

I can sympathize with how difficult this must be for you including not having family there to support you but ultimately,we have but ourselves to be held accountable for.I just wish more for you than what you are living.

{{HUGS}} to you.


O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Kati:
<strong>
My husband's friends are making fun of me and they are provoking him, telling him not to let me 'hold him back'. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is inexcusable!!! NOBODY should be able to make fun of you in your husband's presence without getting hit by a 2x4 from him.

I know. It is really difficult. Yesterday I got his cell phone bill and he's been calling her again basically every day. He got mad at me, saying that I 'snooped'. I hate the person that I've become. This is not me. I used to be this funny girl, everybody loves to be around. I can feel myself becoming more and more withdrawn. I think that I'm really depressed. It is hard for me to be around friends anymore, it breaks my heart to see pregnant women or women with babies, I don't like to clean the house anymore or cook or read a book or watch TV. Those are all things that I used to love to do. I know that my happiness is ultimately my own responsibility, but it is just so hard.

I truly think that my husband does love me, but his addiction to the OW is just so strong. A long time ago, we had a lot of problems and he said that she was there for him during those times. I have managed to overcome all of those issues with the help of professional counseling, but he feels like he doesn't just want to 'dump' his friend now that everything has been solved between us.

I asked him why I could not meet her. He said that he is afraid that I'm gonna be mean to her because of the stuff that happened in the past. I do realize that some of my issues from the past were very damaging to our relationship, but I have worked hard to get over everything and he always tells me how proud he is of me and how happy that I make him now etc. I can fully understand that turning to her during those awful times was an outlet, but I also feel like he never lets me forget and move on. I am not a mean-spirited person, by far. If I was mean, then I would go over there and tell her fiancee and her parents everything, but I'm not. The last thing I would want to do is destroy someone else's life.

Kati

Kati,

I nearly just fell out of my chair when I read your last two sentences! This OW has a fiance and NO ONE on her side knows about this A? Good gracious!

So do you think it's OK that your life is being destroyed but everyone else should go merrily along? Kati,you MUST tell the OW fiance and her parents.If there is ever a chance to put a stop to the A and your WH daily contact with OW, that is the key.

Don't you think that the poor fiance has a right to know that his soon to be wife is already cheating on him? This is not being mean at all,the truth hurts sometimes,yes.And for the OW and her family,it will hurt when you tell them.I really hope you will consider doing that.You sound a bit apprehensive about the whole situation BUT the A is fueled on the secrecy of which you have helped maintain.Blow it wide open.

And PLEASE,reconsider seeing the OW.I do not think it will help at all and you don't need to be exposed to her.I called my WH OW once but only to tell her what she was up against and then I hung up.I did not want or need to hear any "explanantions" about her view.And believe me once was more than enough.If I saw my WH homewrecker in person,I just might not have been as restrained,shall we say.

Also,your WH is very adept at keeping you at bay,he says all the niceties to you and keeps feeding you little tid bits to keep you hooked into his cake fest.I beg to differ as well when he says that "everything is solved" between you.It most certainly is not.And of course he doesn't want to "dump" his friend,he is still having an A,only right now it appears to be an EA.

The word enabler comes to mind and I'd like for you to think about that Kati.I really do understand how difficult this is for you.We all do here.But is this the kind of life you want for yourself? You said how funny you used to be and now you are depressed and withdrawn.You have the power to change that.I wish I could help you more.

O

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl,

I will not meet OW because I know that it would not solve anything for me or us. I have told my husband before that I was going to tell her parents/boyfriend or fiancee and he said that if I do that, then that would be IT between us. He says that her parents are elderly and do not need to be worried or involved in this mess. Same with her boyfriend/fiancee. My husband claims to know him and that the three of them have been out for drinks/dinner before once. He said that he is a nice guy and that they are a good couple and are looking to get married probably this year. I asked him then why can she not let go and just go on with her life. He tells me that she is and that I'm the one making such a big deal out of this entire thing. He says that reason he does not tell me about her/their phone calls is because he knows how hurt I have gotten in the past and he does not want to cause even more problems.

He knows how much I love him and my biggest wish is to have a family together. I asked him yesterday why he does not just leave and be with her. I mean this has been going on for 8 years now (off and on) and I don't understand why they don't want to be together forever then. He says that he is married to me and that I'm his wife and he does not just give that up easily. He also says that he wants to have children with me. This is all so strange. I asked him last night that if we were to have a baby, would she then be the good godmother. ;-) She was married in the past for a year or two and then got divorced. That is how the contact resumed; she needed her 'therapist' again.

I'm trying real hard to keep myself together. I have a problem eating right now and that's not good because I'm already thin, but I exercise a lot and this is what keeps me sane right now.

Sometimes I think that maybe I'm old-fashioned at my 'young' age of 34. ;-) I would never cross the boundaries and do something like this, even if it was just 'talking' and 'friendship'. Some of my husbands friend's frequently hit on me, but I always keep them at bay. Of course it feels good to get a compliment and to be desired. Especially for me. I don't even know anymore how it feels when a man is just crazy about me and wants just me. Maybe this is what keeps OW coming back to him? From his cell phone bill I can see that he makes most of the contact. She does not call that often. Also in the email exchanges that I had found on the computer, he tells her 'I love you' like a thousand times, but she never says or writes those words back to him.

Kati

Like I said,your WH is very adept at saying all the right things,including the age old statement,"If you tell it is over between us".The same threat that so many other BS's have heard.His way of keeping you under his thumb.And I really like the one about the 3 of them going out to drinks together and that he is nice guy and looking forward to getting married.

Geeze.Do you think for one second that if the fiance knew about your WH and his soon to be wife,that there wouldn't be a bar room brawl right then and there? This fiance is nice and looking forward to getting married because he has NO idea what has and is going on behind his back.Talk about a snowjob! What a tangled web he has weaved.

Ugh.Well,the more I hear,the more pained I feel for you.I would still consider telling the parents.But that is me.Unless they were frail and in ill health I would still tell. How old is this OW anyway? If she is your age or younger,most likely her parents are in their 50-60's right? Not that "elderly" where that should be a consideration.My in-laws are in their early 60's and they were pillars of strength for me.Just another tactic on your WH part to keep you from blowing the whistle.

Anyway,one last thought.Don't over do the exercise if you are not eating properly.I would not want you to faint or collapse and get injured.If you can,try to find another outlet to keep busy or make sure you are not doing strenuous exercise unless you have the calories going in too.

Take care.

O

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Hi Octobergirl,

The OW is three years younger than me. She is 31, I'm 34 and my husband will be 45 years old this year.

I do think that my husband knows her boyfriend/fiance, but I don't think he knows what is going on between them. He says that he knows that he calls/emails her, but he is not bothered by it. I don't know if they live together or not though.

I'm not sure how old her parents are, but I assume that they are in their late 50's or 60's.

My husband has always been the type of man who likes attention from other women. He likes to be there for people. His aunt at one time told me that sometimes he can be very 'naive' about stuff like that.

I want to tell you something that I feel you need to know about this entire situation. I met my husband when I was 17 years old. I did not have any other serious relationship up to this point. We loved each other very much, but for a long time we had problem being intimate. My first intercourse was not consensual. A man took advantage of me when I was 14 years old. Up to age 25, I had never told anybody about this. I felt embarrassed and ashamed. This caused me to have lots of problems with intimacy and problems with intercourse. Most of the time, it was just not possible because I would 'tense up'. I know that this was very frustrating for my husband and even though we managed to have a sex life, I always felt incomplete for a long time, not being able to give my husband what he wanted and needed. It hurt me so much. Early in our relationship, I went to several doctors and I tried to get help, but nobody knew what I was talking about. It was not until I came to the United States that I found caring doctors and I got the help that I needed. I went to therapy and counseling services and I was able to overcome all of my issues and problems. I'm a very sexual person and I just LOVE making love to my husband and have fun.

During these 'dark days' though, he turned to OW and I can understand why because it was not easy for him. But, I'm better now and I don't want him to hold the past over me forever. I have worked so hard on this.

Here, you have it. I have poured everything out. Sometime I feel like I have to suffer from this forever.

Kati

Kati,

You have to know that no matter what issues people have in their marriage,having an affair is NOT any way in which to solve those problems.I appreciate what you have told me and I am very sorry that you had to endure another very painful trauma in your younger years.

Sex is but only one portion of a marriage and it is a very important one for many men but that does not excuse at all what he did.I'm sure you'll agree with that.But also,if you look at this situation from the here and now and not from the past,you still have a marriage where the husband is being unfaithful,if not in body,his mind,he is putting his feelings first and continues to hurt you and is very controlling.You deserve better Kati.Whether it is with your WH or with another man or even being by yourself.

I forget where I read this passage but it goes like this: "It is better to be alone and healthy then be with someone and be sick".I can't remember if it was Dr.Harley or Dr.Phil.But you get the idea.Whether he is holding the past over you or not,in his mind,he is still maintaining this bilateral life.You do not have to suffer for the rest of your life,you absolutely do not but the choices we make in life are ours to keep.We own them.You have chosen to live a life with this man as is with out change.So you must be getting a payoff,as Dr.Phil states,in this marriage that you are in.Ask yourself what that may be.

O

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: KitG ]</small>

Hi Kit,

I spoke with my Mom in Europe this morning and during the conversation I started crying. Of course, she was very concerned and I told her what had been going on. I wish I would have done this sooner. I used to be so embarrassed about this situation, but I feel so much better having actually spoken to somebody about it. My Mom was very understanding. She had been through a lot with my Dad when they were younger. He had numerous affairs - most PA's, some EA's so I think she understood my pain. She said that I have only two choices: let him continue to walk all over me and go on with this bulls... or not put up with it anymore. She said that she learned so much during those times with my Dad. Sometimes she wishes that she would have divorced him, but she said many things have changed. They were actually separated for many years, but then reconciled and now have a pretty good marriage.

She told me to stop snooping and to quit worrying about his every single whereabout, phone call, email etc. She said that I should let him do whatever he wanted and I should start working on ME instead and what I wanted out of life, a marriage etc.

I think that I'm going to follow her advice. I know it is not going to be easy. Right now, I feel strong, but I know that once I get home, it may be different again.

My Mom thinks that I have taken over a 'Mother Role' in this marriage. I'm responsible for everything - bills, housework, laundry, the dog, just about everything and therefore my husband may not see me necessarily as a woman anymore, but rather a caretaker etc. OW makes me feel different. She needs him, emotionally. My Mom thinks that I have emotionally withdrawn from this marriage. Sometimes I do not even know what to say to him. Just a few minutes ago, we spoke on the phone and he told me that a co-worker invited us to a white-water rafting trip. I would love to do something like that, but the cost is $125.00/pp and we cannot afford this. So, here I am AGAIN. Being the downer... I feel like I can just never win. He always tells me about all these other women who do all of those fun outdoor things. I'm a pretty athletic person and I love dance etc., but he never seems interested in my activities or what I am doing.

We do have quite a few common friends and we frequently go out with other couples etc. However most of those people are people that I have met and introduced him to. All of the people that he meets are either single women or other single men.

When you said that I am perfectly normal and not controlling, it made me feel good because I was beginning to doubt myself. It is exhausting to constantly try to find out the truth about everything and you are right when you say that I'm wearing myself out over this. I cannot continue on with this pattern. I will follow your advice and the one from my Mom and I will stop looking for stuff. It doesn't change anything anyway.

I feel so tired today.

I'm glad that you wrote. I hope your husband is telling you the truth and I hope that you will continue rebuilding your marriage.

Kati

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: KitG ]</small>

Kati

You are getting excellent advice here. Now it is up to you.

Your WH is selfishly "working" only on himself, and not towards a healthy marriage.

Now it is your time to "selfishly" work on YOU, and your marriage by making some tough decisions, and following through.

You are tough enough! It's time to get busy, girl!!!

SD

Hi Kit,

It's funny. My husband says the same things. I'm his #1 girl, the one that he married and that I am the only woman that he's ever considered having children with.

After a good cry and lots of reading on MB yesterday, I went home feeling pretty strong. We went for a long walk with the dog because the weather was nice and we talked about our day at work etc. It was a good time. Later on in the evening, I was getting ready to go to the gym, he told me to come over to him. He wanted to hold me. I let him hold me and he looked at me for a long time. That's when I started talking about things. I ask him some questions about her, all along mentioning her real name, not using curse words or anything. He told me some things and I started getting a clearer picture. I told him that I love him very much and that I do not want to loose him, but that his friendship with 'her' is taking too much energy and intimacy away from our marriage. I told him that one cannot have a marriage like that and that I cannot continue tolerating this. He said that he does not feel good about sneaking around doing stuff and calling her, but that she depends a lot on his advice. I told her that I sympathize that she is having problems, but if her problems are so severe that she may need to see a professional counselor. Intimate conversation with a married man are not a suitable alternative to a therapist. Apparently she has been in counseling before. She seems pretty confused, needy and clingy from what I can understand.

It is now up to him to show me how much he loves me. I have done all that I can. I love my husband very much and I do not want to loose my marriage, but I cannot continue living like this. Starting today, I will start preparing emotionally and financially for Plan B if things do not improve so that I can be ready.

I have stayed awake almost the entire night and I thought long and hard about this. This board has been of more help to me than anything. There are so many good and caring people here and I will pray for every single one of you so that you can receive the love, respect and relationship that you deserve. I would never thought that infidelity was such a big disease in today's society. Boy, have my eyes been opened....

Kati