Okay, I read a post of yours from June 12, 2002, where you talk about sleeping with H's best friend twice, but "it's over". We don't hear your H's side, only that he is mean to you, can't seem to let go of you but can't really trust you either. This second affair, which pre-dates the one you were caught red-handed in, fills in the gaps, at least for me. Your husband's behavior seems more understandable in light of this.

My wife was a serial cheater, and there were signs all over the place even before I could prove it. Then I learned she "cheated" during our engagement too. That casts the whole marriage in a different light, although again, I can't prove everything. I believe this type of similar experience is why your husband doesn't trust you, and it turns out he was right. There might be other affairs or pseudo-affairs you have not mentioned, but that he saw some evidence for. Unfortunately, he is obsessed with you and cannot let go.

I can accept that you might be hurting or regretful. You get a lot of support on this board, but that's because most people take your posted words at face value. For over a year, people on this board thought you just had a one-night stand, an isolated mistake, and that was not the case. I don't think the advice or support you get in these circumstances can really be helpful to you.

In hindsight, it's easy to say you should have come clean completely a couple years ago, when there might have been a chance. But you stayed in damage-control mode (and this thread reflects that). I think this board enabled you in self deception, which is always a risk.

It's time to wrap things up so you can both move on.

- Tom

This is a confusing thread. Was there more than one A? and one was only emotional with no physical intimacy and the other was a full blown A? Your footnote suggests that your H left the day after he found out. He already knew about the first one since that is the OM he confronted at the party. Somehow you do not seem to understand what he has been going through and the feelings he has been repressing. Of course, alcohol at the party did not help. If not for your H, at least for yourself, I suggest counseling. You need to find out why you allowed it to happen not once, but twice. You say you miss the feelings you had with your H, but caused you to stray? Why did you file the Dv papers, if you still care for him? He probably wanted to be away to let his feelings subside. Anyone who has not been through it will not understand how demoralizing and damaging to the person's self-steem and values is to be betrayed in such a way by the person that you consider your partner for life, your best friend and confidant. It is like a knife cutting through your heart and on top of that someone rubs vinegar on that wound. This is perhaps the mildest analogy, but the pain is too great. Whatever you decide to do, the first thing you need to do is understand why you had those affairs. To find a cure, you must understand the disease. Best wishes.

If I understand this right, her husband left the day after finding the 2nd A. He didn't know about the 1st A until a few months ago.

Read again, friends. Jen has never hidden the fact that there was more than one. He knew about the others too. He was also having EAs and PAs on her - he's only admitted to one PA so far, but that EA was on-going before she started.

Jen wants desperately to remember the good times with her husband, but when a man treats a woman like a prostitute, he has no love, only contempt. It is a power, control and domination issue for him. She hasn't reached the point of realizing that little fact.

Jen also has been diligent in trying to rebuild her marriage since the last EA was outed. Her husband, meanwhile, flaunted his two hussies in front of Jen.

Sigh. If you want to grind your ax against your WS, be my guest, but refrain from judging someone you haven't cared enough to bother to read the whole story!

Jen,

I am sorry for your pain. You have to do what is best for you...taking all that you have gained. If that is one more try then so be it.


As for the posters to this thread who have taken a negative stance regarding Jen's situation I must say you don't know the changes Jen has made. Nor do you know the abusive nature of her husband. She takes responsibility for her actions...all of them. But even if she did not that would be no excuse for the bad behavior of her husband. Ofcourse this is her version but I do not believe she is being deceptive.

I find that many times betrayed spouses react badly to a FWS who comes here for support. The reality is I think each of us who have been the BS yearns for a spouse like Jen who still loves, and tries, and changes for the better. Maybe those who have unrepentant spouses wrongly heap our wrath on people like Jen because she reminds us of what we wish we had...a spouse willing to feel our pain.


Hang in Jen.


ayslyne

Jen

I hope you are alright. I have been thinking of you during this difficult time.

ayslyne

To all the "short time posters" who feel compelled to write something to Jen Brown - Please refrain from posting anything, you do not understand or know the whole situation. You are internalizing her current thread postings and reacting without full knowledge. IF you are really compelled to say something, then invest the time to go back and read ALL of her past threads on ALL of the forums BEFORE you post.

If you are not willing to do that, don't expect others to spend the time trying to help you and your situation with any more thought than you are applying to Jen's very difficult situation.

JEN - I have told you (and others) in the past that one of the "hazards" of group therapy such as MB is the wideranging opinions and emotions of untrained, unprofessional people. It is compounded when you (as a Christian) are taking advice from, or letting yourself be bothered, by statements and opinions from non-Christians. This thread is a very good example of why one should limit their struggles and advice to Christian counseling and be very selective in what non-Christian advice they choose to listen to, much less choose to "act upon."

Jen, having said that, there is little need for me to repeat things that I have said since you began your journey. So let's just briefly touch on a few things.

Exposure of the affair - As a BS myself I can tell you that one of the "feelings" that a BS gets is to "shout it from the rooftops," to let "everyone and anyone" know about the affair, to "strike back" in any way possible. ACTING on those feelings usually leads to more complications in the future, especially if the husband and wife decide to attempt to reconcile.

Gossip - NOTHING stimulates the salacious motivations of others than GOSSIP. Most gossip begins with some small grain of truth and then the game of "telephone" takes over. Pretty soon folks will be thinking and saying that you "slept with everyone in town. God commands us to not engage in gossiping for very good reasons. But the way to "overcome" gossip is with truth and with a lifestyle that is committed to honoring and obeying God, NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE ELSE THINKS!

Jen, you are in the middle of a mess of your own, your husband's, and the Other People's making. You know that and there is little that can be done about the past. Consequences do happen for all of our actions. Part of being the "new Jen" and of maturing in your walk with Christ is to know that while forgiven, consequences of past behavior are not absolved. BUT they do NOT define who Jen is today or who Jen will be in the future. YES, the consequences can be painful to endure, but they are NOT fatal. They may not be what you want, but they are not defining of who you are today. For some, the gossip will fade and die. For others they are the "self-righteous" or the "unforgiving" types who love gossip about OTHER people in order to somehow get a feeling that they are "superior." As all Christians know, none of us is "superior." We are all sinners, lost withour God's intervention and forgiveness for ALL of our base and ugly sins.

Jen, let me pause here for a moment to make and observation that seemed to come through your post. I see you drifting back into "what Jen can do and what Jen feels about it" instead of relying on God and your walk with Him. Let me remind you that many others who have had sins, even adultery, that they succumbed to in their lives where forgiven and "reestablished" by God after their confession and repentance to Him. Allow me to remind you of the "most prominent" example of that in the person of King David. While I cannot be certain that ALL of Israel knew of his adultery, it is certain that a whole lot of them did. The consequence was the death of the child, not rebuilding the temple, etc. But he regained his focus on being obedient to God and that ALL THINGS ARE IN GOD'S CONTROL. We know from the New Testament that in the life of Christian, God "uses all things to work good in our lives." That does not free us from consequences, but it does remove the mental scarlet letter, it does make today a vastly different day than the past, and it teaches us lessons that "prove" the truth of God's commands. We walk into the future a "new person" despite the past, striving to "please God" and not to "please Man."

Jen, if it lends any comfort to what you are feeling or any understanding of what your husband's hurting reactions might be, let me tell you quite candidly that had my wife continued in her choice of the OM and pursued a divorce I would have filed and "alienation of affection" suit. Doing that would, by definition, make the affair "public knowledge." I would have done so for a variety of reasons, but one of them was so that there would be "at least some 'punishment' for the wanton choice to sin and hurt others" that was inherent in such an adulterous decision. No, it's not a terribly "Christian" motive, but it's a human emotional response, and we all know how our emotions can override our reason from time to time.

Your husband is hurting and lashing out with his emotions. HE has refused all help. He is trying to make sense of all of this on his own, without any outside support. Do you really expect him to act, or react, in any way other than an emotional response, regardless of who gets hurt? Do you really expect him to "mature" and "grow" when he has refused all outside interventions designed to help him?

Jen, rest in God and the sure knowledge that "this too shall pass."

God bless.

My dear Jen,

I read of your pain and want you to know that I really feel for you. Many times in the past you have gone through these feelings and hon, it just seems like you can't seem to let go.

As for those dream(s), I may be your hearts way of trying to meet up with your mind. I am not a dream interpreter nor believe it as such but our bodies do have an internal way of releasing the pain and stress we put on it.

IMHO, you are at another turning point. I recommend at this time any communication between you and your H be done with respect. I know you have asked this of him in the past and regardless of what he has to say, ask it of him in the future.

See respect can be asked of anyone. We can individually choose not the accept the words of a disrespectful person. Do that with your H. He is an angry man who does not know how to act and react around you.

Don't go with his flow. You need to keep your respect and move forward. Jen, I honestly believe that if you do this, he may follow. Give him the good example to follow. In this regard he does not know which foot to put forward because he is soooo tangled up in his anger of himself and at you.

As for amending your past, the best way is to improve your future. Even God tells us this.

The choice is now yours.

Hugz,
L.

Sorry Jen, but I have to call you on this one. I regret your husband's actions. I think that they are not what I would have wanted for him. However, you just within the last couple months, once again admitted to MORE than you had during the last year or so that I have followed your course.

You have cried "LOVE" and "TRUST" since I have seen you on this board, and yet after all that, you still had not 'come clean'. What exactly is it that you expect from your husband? Do you expect for him to live in his marriage thinking, as I did, "When is the next one going to show up???"

I am so sorry for your husband's and your pain. Infidelity is nothing but a horribly debilitating act of selfishness, and everyone involved must live with the consequences. That is doable, however, what is almost impossible, at least in my estimation, is the wondering... "Is that all?" There have been three... where is number 4? Or has number 4 even occurred yet.

My ex is a teacher, and I know the lies she has spread throughout the school. She involved some with her affairs, she has lied to all of them in some form or another, and YOU HAVE NO IDEA how hard it is to keep quiet. I do not do it for her... I do it because I have two wonderful children that deserve at least the semblance of a responsible and respectable mother. Regardless of truth.

Had I no children, I would given thought to email everyone at that school from her email account, all the lust letters, lies, pictures, etc. that she had sent. I wouldn't have fixed us, but it also wouldn't have allowed her to live in her world of lies any longer. You talk about your reputation... dear, dear Jen... your reputation is a lie. I care for you Jen, I have written with you often, but if you believe that your EX ruined your reputation... remember who had the affairs. He couldn't say anything unless there was truth in it... THAT is what hurts you the most.

I am so sorry for your pain Jen. I care about you and I care about your ex. He is NOT a demon, villian, or horrible man. He is a man who has been repeatedly betrayed and is having a very difficult time figuring out how to deal with it. That is all... very simple in all actuallity. You can't fix him... he has to do that. He can't fix you... only you can do that. God can do it with both of you, but I don't think he will be all fired up to 'help' someone who is not truly honest. I think that this dishonesty is what separates us from God. He wants us to come to him, but we put up our own wall, by believing in him through our own 'conditions' on our relationship. I donn't believe he will accept that sort of devotion. But only he knows his mind.

It is a tought place to be in Jen. But there is no LIE in what has happened. At least I don't hear you saying he was lying. Just that you didn't like what he said, and the ramifications therein. That was only up to you once Jen, and you gave up that right and reputation when you chose another reputation. It can be mended and overcome, with lifelong changes, but Jen, you have only had an opportunity to be changed for 2 or 3 months, and I am not convinced even in that number.

What I mean is, you only recently admitted to another affair. You were not open nor honest, therefor you were not CHANGED. At least not in total. That disclosure was great, and I am glad you did... but you AND your husband had to start all over again... perhaps he had to start over even further back because all the 'love' he had seen in you was now tainted with more lies.

I don't want to harp on you Jen, because I really do think that deep down you are a pretty decent person. But don't blame your husband for the ramifications of the choices you made. I pray that you will heal. I pray also that your husband will heal.

Jen,

Hope you are doing OK during this difficult time. You still have lots of support here.


prayers,


ayslyne

Jen I kind of know how you feel. I had an A with a co-worker. The gossip has spread around the office and my boss even confronted me about it.My h was tempted to come down to my job and make a scene, thank goodness he didnt. What makes things even worse is that my h used to work there so most people know him and like him very much. After d day I would come to work and cry on and off all day because I destroyed my marriage and wasnt sure if my h would leave me. The embarrassment only added to the misery. It gets better. For me it has only been 3 months and I dont worry as much about people talking about me. The only persons opinion I care about is my h. I'm having a real hard time and I am far from forgiving myself but at least I have pride that I'm doing my best to help my h and build my m. I cant change what I did but I have learned from my mistakes and will spend the rest of my life trying to be an honest and loyal person. Hang in there it will get better.

Jen I kind of know how you feel. I had an A with a co-worker. The gossip has spread around the office and my boss even confronted me about it.My h was tempted to come down to my job and make a scene, thank goodness he didnt. What makes things even worse is that my h used to work there so most people know him and like him very much. After d day I would come to work and cry on and off all day because I destroyed my marriage and wasnt sure if my h would leave me. The embarrassment only added to the misery. It gets better. For me it has only been 3 months and I dont worry as much about people talking about me. The only persons opinion I care about is my h. I'm having a real hard time and I am far from forgiving myself but at least I have pride that I'm doing my best to help my h and build my m. I cant change what I did but I have learned from my mistakes and will spend the rest of my life trying to be an honest and loyal person. Hang in there it will get better.

Thanks for checking on me ayslyne. I am doing just fine now actually. OM from 3 years ago decided not to take any action against my H, so things have quieted down, and I also have been fortunate to not get any more phonecalls from my H either.

Formerly confused, you don't quite have my story straight, and I honestly can't be bothered to sit and write a long post defending myself. But one thing you should know, so you will demonize me less is that I confessed to this other affair back in October or November to my H. I came completely clean, thinking, okay, let's start from scratch, radical honesty and everything. Gave my H a chance to do the same. Did he? Nope. Guess when he confessed to sleeping with another woman? 5 days after I filed for divorce in February. The trust in our relationship is dead and not revivable, yes primarily because I destroyed that trust by my actions in my affairs, but also because of my H's EAs (which preceeded my affairs) and PAs during our separation.

Thanks for your encouragement livingwithregret. I know better than to really get too concerned what other people think, but it is hard sometimes. As you say, I will "I cant change what I did but I have learned from my mistakes and will spend the rest of my life trying to be an honest and loyal person."

Jen

Jen:

Unfor2nately, I can't tell when FH is going 2 post and demean my attempts 2 help a friend out until he says something s2pid like this:

"JEN - I have told you (and others) in the past that one of the "hazards" of group therapy such as MB is the wideranging opinions and emotions of untrained, unprofessional people. It is compounded when you (as a Christian) are taking advice from, or letting yourself be bothered, by statements and opinions from non-Christians. This thread is a very good example of why one should limit their struggles and advice to Christian counseling and be very selective in what non-Christian advice they choose to listen to, much less choose to "act upon.""

As with all of my posts, you are a big girl and can take the things I say 2 you any way you want 2 and jettison the rest (or argue with me if you wish). My favorite advice 2 anyone is "Never take advice."

Let me know if you share FH's narrow view, and I'll refrain from offering my opinions.

best,
-2long

Oh dear 2long, I very much value your opinion. You have been a dear friend to me in the past 2 years. Keep posting! I think you need to look past FH's remark about Christian vs. non-Christian advice, and just worry about me, not his advice. Well, you don't have to "worry" about me, I'm doing just fine these past few days actually! I don't only take advice from Christian people by any means. All opinions are welcome, but whose advice I actually take is between me, myself and I, and I guess God as well.

If there's one thing I've learned on MB, sometimes you need to simply ignore the people you don't agree with (if you've already had more battles than you can count with them), and you are at a point where you should agree to disagree. But then again, that "conflict-avoidance" attitude on my part is part of what led to the demise of my marriage, so who knows!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>