Well, tonight we had a big discussion. He said that it is too hard for him to give up his R with the OW. Can't I understand that? I said no. When I was faced with that decision 5 years ago, it was a no brainer. Hmm. . .my husband and son, or the OM? It was an automatic choice: My family. But he can't make that choice for me. Yet he says that our problems have nothing to do with OW. They were already there before she came along. AND THEY CAN'T GET FIXED AS LONG AS SHE IS HERE!!!

But that is a moot point because my H admitted that he doesn't love me anymore. He admitted that he's only staying with me because he feels sorry for me and he's afraid that I'm suicidal and I may hurt myself or my son.

I'm so full of hurt and I just want it to stop. I need to just let go. . .why do I keep hanging on? He needs to leave, right? I'm just so scared he'll never come back. Why would he? He doesn't want me anymore.

<small>[ March 17, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

honey, you will be OK, I promise you. Your H does love you. Right now he is saying all those things that a WS in the throes of a fantasy ADDICTION says. THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING. He is a VERY confused man right now who does not know WHAT he feels.

The answer is to move to Plan B and let the light of reality shine on his affair. That, and not meeting his needs anymore will be like a bucket of cold water on him. The faster you move to Plan B, the faster this affair will end when he sees that the OW can't possibly meet all his needs. Nor will it have the fun, secret, fantasy aspect anymore.

He will be free to see her with all her warts. And she doesnt have the benefit of this program, so pretty soon she will start lovebusting and reality will enter their affair.

Please just calm yourself down and don't give up hope. Don't believe a thing he says, just move forward with your Plan B, Nid. You will be OK.

I just printed out my Plan B letter. But Melody,
asking him to have no contact with me scares me so much. I don't want to do this.

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong> I just printed out my Plan B letter. But Melody,
asking him to have no contact with me scares me so much. I don't want to do this. Can't he just move out and I not meet his needs? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid, having a watered down Plan B is worse than having no Plan B. Let me explain. It prevents you from withdrawing from this unhealthy situation plus it serves as reassurance FOR HIM that you are sitting there waiting for him. As long as he can continue to get his "fix" from you, he can continue to sit on the fence.

I know it seems HARDER with no contact, but actually it is easier and less painful because you are able to withdraw from the chaos and the pain to a degree, and focus more on your and your son's lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nid:
<strong> I just printed out my Plan B letter. But Melody,
asking him to have no contact with me scares me so much. I don't want to do this. Can't he just move out and I not meet his needs? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid, can you wait a day or two to give it to him? I would let him see some CALM before you hand him that letter and go dark. The last picture in his mind of you before PLan B needs to be calm, collected, and confident, not overwrought. [and you have every right to be overwrought! we just don't need him leaving with that picture of you in his mind]

What are his plans?

nid, please try everything to calm down and control your emotions. I know how hard that is! But you must be under control when you deal with him. It doesn't help you to lose control right now.

I agree with melody...don't give the letter and cry at the same time...NOT A GOOD IDEA.

If you want to find peace again then you had better give him that letter if not you will be in constant pain forever...can you imagine yourself being hurt like this forever? Can you?

That was why i could not wait to go into plan B...i just wanted peace for myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Dear nid,

I just want to try to give you some hope here. I know our marriage at this point is far from perfect - we still bicker, we both still LB sometimes, and there is still a lot of "stuff" to work on - in the past few weeks, I have stressed several times that we still need marriage counselling. That said...

In June 2001, I discovered my H's first EA - at first, he reassured me that "this doesn't threaten you", blah blah blah. By August, he had given me the "I'm not in love with you anymore and I'm only staying for the children" speech. Actually, he said "My feelings for you have withered and I'm only staying because I don't want to cause any upheaval to the kids". Believe me, I know how bad you are hurting.

To cut a long story short, that EA ended shortly afterwards, and I thought we had "survived". In Feb 2002, I discovered his 2nd EA, and this time, things got nasty - I was devastated that he could do this to me a 2nd time, and the day after I found out, we got into a fight in the kitchen, and I punched him!

It was then that I started to realize that the problem wasn't just to do with "us", but that the nature of affairs is addictive - he had launched into his MLC with a bang. We struggled on, and he was nasty and aggressive. I found MB, and after six weeks, I felt I couldn't take it any more, and I began to initiate plan B - in my case, I didn't do it the MB way, and in hindsight, I think it might have been better if I had. Nevertheless, I had had it and I had reached the point where I no longer wanted to be part of the equation he seemed to need in his life - I told him I had a right to decide for myself what I wanted, and I had agreed to a union of mutual respect, love and faithfulness. Since he had changed the terms of our agreement (since marriage is an agreement) without my knowledge (in other words, behind my back), I was not obligated to continue living with him and I wanted him to leave. Within days he had booked himself into counselling admitting that he was the one "with the problem".

It has been a long two years since then, and there have been more difficulties since then. I am aware that my road with him is not an easy one, and right now, I am going through a period where I'm not really sure how I feel about my H.

But what I wanted to say to you was this....my H still loves me, and now he says so again. This morning, he cooked breakfast for us all, and as he put my plate down on the table, he hugged me and joked "Don't say I never love you!", then gave me another big hug. In August 2001, I was hurt to the core, and the pain I felt then is still affecting my feelings for him today - that's what I have to deal with. But that "I don't love you any more...etc" is FOG, FOG, FOG! I can see that now, looking back, but then, I didn't know that.

The most painful thing I ever did was ask my H to leave, but I am convinced it was the only thing that woke him up to the fact that he was risking losing everything. I don't know how your situation will turn out...my H never actually left - my H knew me well enough to take me seriously...he knew I really DID want him to leave....and that finally started to rattle him.

The other thing I now know is that NC is vital. In both cases, with my H's EAs, the girl in question departed the scene. I don't know what I would have done if that hadn't been the case. Plan A and plan B are designed to separate the WS from the OP - but you have to be mentally in a place where you are ready to accept that if he does not come back should he decide to leave the home, you can accept that. For me, since I was going through it a second time, I was definitely ready....

This morning, having him hug me and actually say the words "I love you" meant a lot more to me than he realizes, because I know he meant it. Hold hope in your heart, nid, even when you are feeling so low, and don't EVER believe that what he says while in the fog is truth. What my H said to me once..."I'm sorry for hurting you by saying that, I was trying to be honest and at the time, its what I thought I felt." And that's it in a nutshell - he thought he felt that at the time, but basically, he was like an addict who loves his drug - until he is actually "clean" of his addiction to the OW (and only NC will do that, like drying out for an alcoholic), he is a man who can't think straight. Try to look at it like that whenever he blindsides you with these things...take a deep breath and then go on with what you need to do..for YOURSELF! OK?

Hope this helps.
LIR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What are his plans?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We actually talked again after I posted last night and it was better. He said that he doesn't want to leave me to be with her. He asked if I would be happier if he had NC with her and moved out. I said if he can have NC with her and move out, why not have NC and stay to work on our M? He said he doesn't want to fight anymore and have me break down in front of our S. I told him that whenever our conversations lead to a fight or a break down, it is because OW's name has come into the picture. If OW is out of the picture, we probably wouldn't be having these arguments and could focus on the problems within our M.

He says he hasn't had any personal conversations with OW for quite some time, but the last time he talked to her (a few days ago regarding LL stuff) she did ask how things were going. I said, that's why it needs to stop, because they can't draw the line. He said he knows. And I think as soon as this season is over, he's going to step down from the board. He didnt say that in so many words, but he said he knows that it has taken its toll on our life (time wise and because of the EA). He says he knows what he needs to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> nid - does he intend to move out? You can't Plan B until he's out. It simply cannot be done under the same roof.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know. He's gone from yes to no to maybe again. He says he's scared for me and doesn't want me to be hurt. He feels like he hurts me if he stays and he'll hurt me if he leaves.

I want to get an appointment with S. Harley, but it will probably have to wait until next month. We are trying to catch up from him being out of work for several months.

I did get upset during our conversations last night mainly because it is so painful to hear that your H isn't in love with you and is staying with you only out of pity and because of our S. But I tried hard to control it. I did much better than before. I did vent about OW though and how much I despise her.

But all in all, we ended on a fairly good note, we continued to talk in bed. He even opened up some about his R with OW. He insists it never crossed the line and told me to ask him any questions about it that I had. I did. We held hands, he held me close.

He's so torn and I want him to get help, but I don't know how.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hold hope in your heart, nid, even when you are feeling so low, and don't EVER believe that what he says while in the fog is truth. What my H said to me once..."I'm sorry for hurting you by saying that, I was trying to be honest and at the time, its what I thought I felt." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks LIR. This is exactly what my H tells me right now, that he is sorry he is hurting me, but he's trying to be honest with me about his feelings. He says he doesn't want to be with OW, but he just isn't sure if he and I can ever work. I've tried to get him to realize that as long as she is in our M, we can't work because it is too painful for me to focus on anything else but her even when he says she isn't the problem.
But I know he hasn't been talking to her about anything personal in a while. There is no evidence of it. He's home all the time and so busy being focused on his new job. When he did speak to her the other day about LL stuff, he told me right away and said he kept it short, nothing personal. I believe him. Maybe I am a fool.

bump

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Dear nid,

It sounds so much like he is reading from the affair handbook, chapter 1 - I mean, so many of the things he is saying are the exact same things that so many WS have told their BS on this board. I have been here for 2 years, and seen so much of this stuff. So the first thing I would say is that, I know this is so painful to hear these words come out of his mouth, but mostly, it is just "waffle" - he's so confused he doesn't know whether he's coming or going, he doesn't want to hurt you, but he also doesn't want to give up the sense of excitement he got out of his R with her. If you look up Orchid's posts, or ark, they are two mentors who are great at reading between the lines and reinterpreting "waffle", as I call it. Try not to take it too much to heart.

I think the tactic that helped me most was the concept of going along with everything he thought he wanted. I don't know whether I can explain this very well - I got the idea from a post called "the jujitsu way to avoid divorce" or something like that. Let's put it this way - the reason why there is conflict between you right now is because he thinks he wants something different than what you want. People naturally want to be with someone who they think wants the same things that they want - they think of that as "being compatible". When a person is having an affair, they become convinced that they are more compatible with the OP than they are with their spouse. They declare that they have found their "soulmate". You know and I know that they are living in cloud cuckooland, but how to shake them out of that place? Not easy. But possible.

How to "help" a person to think that you both want the same things? Because that is the place you want to get back to - where he feels that you want what he wants - once he starts to feel twinges of this, he will start to feel that it is still possible to be close to you. Remember - he has the strongest possible emotional connection with you that a man can have - you are his wife, even though he is thinking right now that he's not sure that's such a good idea anymore.

So stop resisting what he wants - whatever he wants, you agree with him - but be crafty about HOW you agree. I had some very painful conversations with my H in the last 2 years, conversations where I sensed that he was just aching for me to say "I want a divorce", or just waiting for me to give him an ultimatum so that he could explode an walk out. Because even though he had decided to stay, he wasn't altogether a happy camper about it. Recovery takes a long time. During those conversations, having read up here at MB, I was ready for them, and I decided to agree with him, so when he said "I've lost the thread of us (meaning 'give me a way out now'" I said 'We can find it again if we are both willing to try, but I don't want anything that you don't want, so if you want a divorce, then I will accept that, but YOU go to the lawyer and start the process." None of this was said at all angrily. I just took this tack over and over again.

Over and over again, it was the same message:

"We can rebuild if we are both willing to try...

but if YOU don't want to, then I won't oppose you..."

Notice that this puts ALL the burden on to him...the burden is on to him to give up...the burden is on him to take the responsiblity for abandoning the marriage...

Do NOT let him foist this responsibility on to you, because in most cases, they will try like heck and squirm until they are blue in the face to make YOU be the one to file.

So repeat over and over to yourself "I don't want anything that you don't want".

IF he asks you what you DO want, you say that you want to be in a relationship of mutual respect, honesty and openness, where both your needs are being met and you think that that is still possible with him.

One wise poster here recommended that I treat my H like a science experiment - since he wouldn't do the emotional needs questionaire with me - you know that the OP is meeting some of the EN's that you, for whatever reason did not meet for him. So try to find ways to meet those needs - and be clinical about it - look at him like a science experiement - see what he responds to - Admiration was big one for my H.

If he shows signs of coming back to spend more time willingly in your company, and you sense that there is a chance for recovery, you need to make it clear to him that in addition to NC, he has to be willing to be accountable to you - that is how he can restore your respect for him, and if he loves you, he will do this for you. He should give you access to his e-mail and his cellphone and be accountable for his whereabouts at all times. If he baulks at this, he is not ready for recovery. If you do go to plan B, this should be a condition for his return.

I know this is hard, but you do have a chance to save your marriage. Perhaps others might have a different opinion - I haven't read all of your other posts, so I don't know your history, but it sounds to me like he is trying in his own mind to find how he can stay with you, so I certainly don't think all is lost. I think there is still hope.

Be strong, nid - you don't have to feel strong in order to be strong. Recently, I looked back and could see all the times when I was brave and went forward - those were the times when I felt the most scared and full of pain, but tried to put one foot in front of the other just the same. I had a lot of help from many on this board, so if I can help out in some small way, it would be "paying it forward" for me.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ March 03, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Lady in red,

You are so right about everything. My H told me exactly the same thing to me: I don't love you anymore, I am staying just to not to shock the kids to much. I want to give them a time cushion. Do all WH have the same mind? I've been in Plan B for about a month now. I don't see any sign for himto return. I don't know whether i should go to Plan B. It is too hard. Nid, be brave. We are all here for you.

I agree with the others.

It is FOG. Please try to not take it to heart...his saying he isn't in love with you anymore. My H said the same stuff and more. FOG. He now knows that he never stopped loving me and it wasn't real love with the OW. You can have the marriage you both dreamed of even after all the crap you've gone through in the past and present.

Don't take anything that he says as the final word. I believe there is still hope for your marriage.

The stance that LIR explained is a good one.

Orchid, WAT, and Mel have all given good advice about the best approach to take at this point.

I agree with staying calm, confident, in control of your emotions. Be the stable one. Be the best Nid you can be.

Look at his actions and don't focus as much on his words. He is confused.

WAT may be right about further exposure. What your H does in the next several days will help you determine what your next move should be. I really hope you can counsel with SH sooner rather than later as far as what to do if he isn't moving out and still won't agree to NC. You don't want to encourage cake eating...fence sitting....

Also, due to Mel's recommendation I just started reading Dr. Laura's "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands". It may be a help to you as you try to figure out what EN's the OW met that you weren't meeting.

I know my H has been telling me the last couple of days that he really likes how accomodating I've been to him lately. I've been consciously trying to get better at meeting his EN's for admiration, domestic support, appreciation etc.
I'm getting a bit better at biting my tongue when a LB wants to come out.

Mortarman had an excellent post on Just J's thread yesterday or the day before that spoke about what his flesh would do if he didn't put Jesus first in his life. It confirmed where we (as Christians) get our strength to do what it right (not LB etc. bad behavior) instead of the mess we get ourselves into on our own without Christ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you the one who recently posted you don't "believe" in taking meds for depression? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, WAT. I'd really rather not. I did try some Xanax that my H had and it did nothing for me. In fact, I felt worse. Go figure. The best thing that has worked for me when I get low is to pray and read scripture. Also, when I run I feel much better afterward. I'll stick to that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "We can rebuild if we are both willing to try...

but if YOU don't want to, then I won't oppose you..."

Notice that this puts ALL the burden on to him...the burden is on to him to give up...the burden is on him to take the responsiblity for abandoning the marriage...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm basically doing this LIR. I feel like he is wants me to hate him and ask him to leave. But I don't. I keep telling him he knows my goal is to work on our M and that I will not stop him if he feels he needs to leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He should give you access to his e-mail and his cellphone and be accountable for his whereabouts at all times. If he baulks at this, he is not ready for recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He does all that now. He says he understands why I need him to do that and he doesn't get upset at doing so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been in Plan B for about a month now. I don't see any sign for himto return. I don't know whether i should go to Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LIH, did you mean you've been in Plan A for a month?

Thanks 4give.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been consciously trying to get better at meeting his EN's for admiration, domestic support, appreciation etc.
I'm getting a bit better at biting my tongue when a LB wants to come out.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I've been doing this as well. My H notices, but wonders how long I can continue while he is unable to reciprocate. He's just not ready to "give" me anything right now. He's so stuck on how I've hurt him in the past and how he tried for so long and I wasn't there for him. He doesn't forgive and forget easily. I know this will be a long hard haul. My efforts are "too late". Yet, I know he isn't giving up entirely, he just doesn't have it in him to give me anything I need. Do you think its possible for me to keep being the one to give and not receive anything in return? I have a feeling he wants me to "wait" for him. He has pretty much stopped talking to OW, so I know he's trying.

I think it is possible for you to wait for him.

I think that you can still tell him that you want to be the best wife for him. But you must try to not be weak and pathetic. How does OW come off? It is so much easier when you are doing the dumping. It is a blow to the ego to feel like we are being dumped. Be consistent in your message of wanting to make a new and better marriage that will be great for both of you.

Now you've felt the full force of how he may have felt after your betrayal. You understand and have expressed remorse and empathy. Not that it was his intention to have a revenge A. I am sure he didn't plan to have an EA...it 'just happened' as most do. Hasn't his gone on for a bit longer than your's did?

He may say that he doesn't consider OW as an option. It sure does seem like something more is still going on or he is still in a major fog and serious withdrawal. I am not there but from my experience I don't believe his words. It is all from my own hindsight. I did believe those awful words when they were first spoken to me. I told him to pack his bags and leave before I even had a chance to absorb the full meaning of what separation would be after nearly 20 years together.

You have an advantage that I didn't have: that is all of us here on the MB forum who have been down this road before you and many of us have survived with our marriages intact and recovered.

Your situation is not unique. As other's have tried to emphasize, LIR said it: "it sounds like he is reading it out of the affair handbook". The trick is not to get consumed by his fog. Try to look at him as though he is not in his right mind right now...anything to stay objective and on the right course.

You can do this. It will take patience. It may not be a short journey for you. He may need to know what it will be to come close to losing you before he has to desire to be fully with you and to realize just how much love he still has for you. It may require plan B. Get with SH soon if he doesn't continue with his plan to separate. He can better advise what to do then. Maybe other's here can better help with that too.

We didn't separate the last time. But that time wasn't at all like the time before. Your situation it more like my H's more serious one before. My absolute hell. So I know how you are feeling. I know how despondent you can get, just please try to be your best.

Nid,

You are right, it was a typo. I am in Plan A. But I feel everything he did is deliberately to let me hate him so I can file for D. I don't know what to do. If I go for Plan B, that is what he wants. Is that the right thing to do? He lies and lies. He just disappear without any trace. I hate him.