</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have him reread SAA. I thought you said he read it or parts of it before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4give, we read After the Affair 5 years ago. Actually, I think I did most of the reading and just shared parts of it. Now he is UNWILLING TO DO ANYTHING, not read, not go to MC, not see our priest who married us, nothing. He said he has tried for a long time. He's done trying, he wants to get away and see if this M is what he wants.

Am I supposed to read these books on my own? What good does that do me if he doesn't care? He is extremely closed minded to reconciliation on his part right now. I'm tired of hurting and basically waiting while he decides if I'm worth it.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

SAA= Harley's 'Surviving an Affair'
Good for you, also if towards the beginning of it, I think, there was some especially helpful stuff that helped open my FWS's eyes before he agreed NC last time.

Dobson's 'Love Must Be Tough' is totally for you and not at all for him. They say the WS should not even see it. It can be very helpful for the stage you are at right now. You need to cop a tougher stance now, as most agree.

I continue to agree with WAT et al to EXPOSE to the board etc. ASAP.

Get off the rollercoaster. Preserve what ever love and respect you have left for him.

I have also wondered if nid's H would willingly go. I just have had this wierd little feeling that, that might be an issue at some point. That is exactly why I shared my approach. I played on the part of my H that really didn't want to hurt me and certainly didn't want to hurt his kids.It was rational and reasonable and I presented it calmly. I would practice what I was going to say so that I could keep my emotions in check. It's also hard for WS to disagree with you when you're asserting the fact that you're certain you want nothing more than WS's peace and happiness and you understand their need to seperate (gag,puke) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> This is also GREAT Plan A behavior to send them off with!!!!!!! You are appearing to be supportive of WS's need to regroup and you are getting your desired outcome AND ( bonus points) a positive POJA on their leaving.

You really need to read SAA.

About the exposure thing. I might only expose to family and close friends and see what kind of effect that has. The board people may find out indirectly and that would be better for YOU. Then, if at some point in the future it is needed, you can go to the appropriate party and request something be done to seperate OW and your H. That just might all happen on it's own if you pick the right people to tell. I think the people you tell should be people to whom it would be natural for you to seek support from in a crisis. I know others will disagree with me but here is how I see it. I tried not to do anything that would be "damaging" to my H. For me, I wanted my sole message to say how much I loved and cared for him, and for me, that meant not exposing his error to everyone who knew us. I wanted to show compassion when he was being pretty much compassionless.

I think there are some people, in some circumstances, for whom exposing indiscriminately can be something the WS is never able to emotionally overcome.I wanted to rebuke him, not destroy him. Again nid, how he would respond....this is something only you as his wife knows. However, be assured, exposure that will provide natural consequences is essential.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the exposure thing. I might only expose to family and close friends and see what kind of effect that has. The board people may find out indirectly and that would be better for YOU. Then, if at some point in the future it is needed, you can go to the appropriate party and request something be done to seperate OW and your H. That just might all happen on it's own if you pick the right people to tell. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I agree Mthrr. I already have exposed to my family and a very few close friends (and her H acctually knew before me). It really hasn't had any effect on them.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

I don't know nid. I think you might be better off waiting to see what happens once he moves out. If he really is leaving in order to sort things out there may be no need. During BB season I would be sure that the separation was apparent, afterall you will be in Plan B. Won't people ask during BB season when they see things are different between the two of you or find out he's not living at home? Certainly it will come to light. When people ask why, you tell the truth and say you're separated during this time as H decides if he wants to continue in the marriage or not. No need to say anything else. If they ask, you can simply respond as you feel is appropriate to the person asking and their potential role in advocating for your marriage. Then all these people finding out is a natural consequence of his decision. Certainly he can't expect you to lie for him.

On the other hand, if things escalate w/ OW when he moves out THEN you can go to the board if needed. The advantage I see in waiting is that this may all play out the way you want it to without your direct disclosure. It might end up not being so crystal clear to H whether the news broke loose because of what you said or did directly or if people just figured it out for themselves or if someone you looked to for support spilled the truth.

Remember to be in close commune with God about His timing of things. Sometimes we can make costly mistakes when we get impatient and want to change things. If He lets you know the time is right then that is when to act. Wait for your "God moment". He'll tell you when.

Mthrrhbard, you're giving me good advice. I was very close to exposing TODAY, but just wasn't sure if it was going to help or hurt in the long run.

So if he moves out and continues his R with her, how will I know? I'm so scared that he will go to her and I WON'T WANT HIM BACK.

I am going to talk to him tonight and tell him that I see how unhappy he is and I want him to be happy. So if moving out will help him to decide what he wants, then he can count on me to accept his decision without any reprecussions (that is me breaking down, having a fit, etc). I will remind him that I want more than anything to be a good wife to him and reconcile, but if he needs to go then we can sit down and discuss the logistics of it all. I know I can do this because it is giving me some relief just thinking about getting off this rollercoaster.

Yes, you know your H best. Mthhrrbard has some wisdom there. Her suggestions on how and who to expose to make sense. Use your judgement and do it in a natural, honest way.

I did expose to folks at the kid's Ice Hockey after my H moved out. I probably didn't do it very well because they actually lost more respect for me than for them at airing the dirty laundry. I called people out of the blue that I wouldn't have naturally called otherwise. Stupid of me. It didn't help in that situation. But, really, I was the fool. Many probably already knew and were just protecting them. That's why we did not retain any of the 'friends' from that era.

The last A I told hardly anyone. We met with our Priest. I told my H's partner prematurely and with some regret. At the time I thought we would be divorcing. He then told some others. Since he went NC fairly soon after D-day it wasn't as necessary to expose and hurt his reputation any further.

It will all probably come out naturally during the LL season.

The way you plan to approach the Pres. of the board sounds good.

Just my two cents worth - like another poster said - print out that e-mail and keep it in a safe place - you may need it as evidence someday. One of the biggest mistakes I made was to burn the evidence (letters he had written to OW1) after I thought it was over.

When EA2 reared its ugly head, I was wiser, and I spied on their e-mails for 6 weeks, to see if they were still meeting in secret, still txting and still e-mailing. OW2 was the sweetest girl you could ever meet - she babysat for 2 of our couple friends, and offered to babysit for me. None of our friends would have believed that she was pursuing my H, even while she strung out her own long-term, long-distance BF. I have learned that the only proof is hard black and white print on the page. I printed out all her e-mails and gave them to the lawyer I consulted. While I was agonizing over what to do, I consuted this lawyer twice, to find out what my rights as a householder and a parent were. I was afraid that my H would use my history of post-natal depression against me in any possible custody battle. My lawyer helped me to see that I was in a very strong position. So when I was ready to go to plan B, I was prepared.

See a lawyer and get all your ducks in a row first - it will make you feel better and if he doesn't take you seriously now, it may help jostle him out of the fog a little - don't worry, he'll go back in again, but the more times he gets his cage rattled, the better your chances are of recovering your marriage.

You're in a difficult situation because the OW is getting divorced now, and most likely, if your H leaves now, he will end up being with the OW, no matter how much he swears he wants to be alone to think about you and him. If you read this site, over and over again, you will see that the marriages that go through plan B and recover are the ones where the BS went through the pain and suffering of shoving the WS completely into the arms of the OP. As Harley says, its only when the OP HAS to meet all the WS ENs, that the WS begins to appreciate what his/her marriage, and his/her spouse meant to him. WAT is right - until he doesn't have you to fall back on, there's no chance of the rose-tinted glasses coming off his nose.

After all, you know and I know that she has bad breath sometimes and hairy armpits and gets PMS, just like all the rest of us - but until he gets to bask in the glow of her company all the time, he ain't going to believe it.

Be strong, nid, and don't make the same mistakes I did - don't destroy evidence, and don't reveal your sources. Be resolute and don't let yourself be drawn into any long-drawn out emotional arguments about your decision. One of the things that a WS counts on, probably subconsciously, is the BS being torn apart - as much as he says he doesn't want to hurt you - the fact is that he relies on you being blown back and forth by your conflicting emotions - he knows that as long as you are torn apart and indecisive, he can continue to waffle. As soon as your feelings harden, then he will know the game is up and he's on to the next stage of the whole scenario, and its when you take control that he will begin to realize he is playing a whole new ball game here.

We have two boys who are now 8 and 11. One of the things I told him was that our sons needed a father who was a good role model, not a liar and a cheat. Both our sons were starting to be torn apart by the little they witnessed. Our older son overheard an argument that took place at midnight, long after we both thought he was asleep. H stormed out with me saying to him as he went out the door that he was the one giving up on our marriage and that he had betrayed my trust. To my horror, OS came creeping down the stairs and asked me to explain everything that he had heard. I did - I may have said too much, but I did the best I could - my own mother and father D over infidelity and I knew what kind of pain my son was in - I knew it was worse feeling insecure about what was going to happen, and feeling like things were being hidden from you. OS sobbed his heart out in my arms. But I reassured him that nothing would happen without me warning him about things first, and that I was trying everything i could to work things out with Daddy. I also told him he could talk to Daddy anytime - that I had nothing to hide about what I said to him. In the months that followed, when H realized that OS knew more about what was happening than he thought, he was devastated. I think it was that more than anything, at the time, that made him suffer - he began to realize the consequences of his actions only when he began to realize that his sons were losing love and respect for him because of the way he was behaving and the way he was treating me.

It has been a long, hard road, but I think we are getting better. Two years later, the boys are doing very well. I just want to give you hope, as well as help strengthen your resolve not to let yourself be blown around by his "I don't know's".

Hope this helps.
LIR

<small>[ March 09, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Ooops - double post.

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Lady in Red, thank you so much for your reply. It helps me so much to have all of you to talk to.

I am meeting with my priest on Thursday. He is the one who married us and is a close family friend (my mom's family).

I think I'm going to talk to my mom this weekend, too. She senses something is wrong but I haven't told her because she takes her kids pain on as her own. What mother doesn't I suppose?

I am also planning to go on a vacation with my S over Spring Break, without my H. Is this a LB if he hasn't moved out by then? I just need to get away from it all and so does my S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're in a difficult situation because the OW is getting divorced now, and most likely, if your H leaves now, he will end up being with the OW, no matter how much he swears he wants to be alone to think about you and him. If you read this site, over and over again, you will see that the marriages that go through plan B and recover are the ones where the BS went through the pain and suffering of shoving the WS completely into the arms of the OP. As Harley says, its only when the OP HAS to meet all the WS ENs, that the WS begins to appreciate what his/her marriage, and his/her spouse meant to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I fear the most because I'm afraid I won't want him back at all if he goes to her.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if he moves out and continues his R with her, how will I know?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have to either hire a PI, rely on a trusted ally or snoop very carefully yourself. Bottom line, you will need to determine if there is ongoing contact between them as soon as possible after he moves out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so scared that he will go to her and I WON'T WANT HIM BACK.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This again is a natural consequence of his bad behavior. This is a risk he needs to face. Remember nid, he is choosing this. If he continues to cheat and lie it is HIS fault that you will fall out of love with him. Don't you think he probably knows that if he actually goes to be with her he might ruin any chance at reconsiliation? If you put on confidence and strength and determination it will make him think about that even more. No fear nid, no fear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't you think he probably knows that if he actually goes to be with her he might ruin any chance at reconsiliation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I've told him that.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

I think you are catching on. His words can't be trusted. Only his action. You can not trust the OW to be honest with you either. It is not in either of their best interests to tell the truth right now. Assume the worst.

A PI is the only way you'll really know. I wasted many a night trying to catch my H even after he had moved out. It didn't help me and I didn't
'catch' them. I also called a PI...but ended up deciding not to spend the money but to just accept the truth through all their denials. If money wasn't an issue I would have used a PI, and much sooner.

I also spoke with two lawyers to find out my rights, where I stood, and to help me decide how much of his paycheck to deduct and give to me...since I made out our paychecks.

I really think you will have to endure him playing this all the way out...if you have the stamina.

Yes, get off that rollercoaster!

Personally, I don't think its a LB to take S on a break without Dad, as long as Dad agrees to you taking him. I think my H was very anxious that I would up and leave and "steal" the boys from him. Any way to reassure him that this isn't what is happening - let him know exactly where you will be, telephone nos, etc -

I know that getting away from him, and getting back in touch with old friends who really knew me well helped me a lot - one thing that can happen to you in this is that the WS tears you down as a person, in order to justify their behaviour. I saw a lot of my H's e-mails where he talked about me to others, and it was hard for me to recognize myself - it was as if he had taken every failing I had, and no-one is perfect, and magnified them 10-fold to the point where I was practically deranged - that really upset me. It helped me a lot to be with people who knew me and loved me - my mother especially helped me affirm who I REALLY was. Being a mother myself, I know that children are born with a certain nature or temperament. My H insisted that I was a depressive and always had been. My mother was able to confirm for me that I was not - my depression was always stress-related - as a child I had been cheerful, fun and giving, but my parents D caused great pain to our family. The reason why I have tried so hard to save my marriage is because I don't want my children to suffer what I went through.

But I did reach the point where I felt it would be better for them if we separated. Thankfully, things have improved since then, although I have to admit I still have some doubts.

But back to you - I think you should tell your mother and allow her to support you. You should build your network of friends and not let this isolate you.

Also, I think its wise now to stop confronting him on every new discovery of contact. Its clear that he is still in contact, and further confrontation will do no good. Like the others have said, you will now have to find proof of contact in order to expose his lying. I know that you are afraid of your own feelings - but you know, those are healthy feelings. They show that you don't want to be around someone who hurts you like this. Remember that right now, he is like an addict, and he is still addicted to his drug. It is possible to love an addict, but not his addiction and not be able to be with him while he is addicted. If and when he chooses to give up his addiction and become the person you WANT to know again, you can once again have healthy, happy feelings for him again.

Hope this helps,
LIR

<small>[ March 05, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Thanks LIR, it does help some.

Well, we approached the subject of separation tonight and I told him he knows where I stand and if he is truly unhappy that he needs to leave. I told him that I can't go on any longer with him knowing that he is unwilling to commit and stop talking to OW. He would not mention the fact that he talked to her today. No big surprise there.

So we sat down to look at finances. I was a little short and stand offish. Once we began looking at it and I realized that he has no qualms about leaving and is ready to go forth, I felt the tears welling up inside me. I threw the paperwork down and said I'd be back. I wanted to collect myself. The reality of it all hurts so much. I went in my bathroom and cried. As I washed my face, he came in and said, "Do you want to do this another time?" I said, "I don't want to do it at all." He held me. Oh, I feel so pathetic. What is wrong with me?

I wanted to leave the house and go see my mom. He came after me and said, why don't you stay and watch a movie and make margaritas? I didn't know what to do. Part of me wanted to run away, the other part wanted to be with him.

He told me that he is just numb. While he loves me and cares for me and doesn't want to hurt me, he feels so numb to my efforts. He doesn't know if he wants to reconcile and he insists OW has nothing to do with this at all. He said I keep making the issue about her and not our M? Does that make sense to anyone? Hasn't OW become a large part of our problem regardless of whether she is the cause or result of our problems?

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He said I keep making the issue about her and not our M? Does that make sense to anyone? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it makes no sense and you need to stop falling for his lies.

You want to believe him so much. He isn't your H right now. You need to face that and try to not take it to heart, I know it's easier said than done.

He is the one that sounds pathetic. You need to muster some of that strength you started getting this afternoon.

You may try getting a little tape recorder and putting it in his car under his car seat or in his home office. You may find more proof. (remember, my H had a second secret cell phone they used.)

Had I had this site then I may have used some of these suggestions.

Don't keep second guessing what your own gut is telling you. You still allow him to jerk your chain. Don't let him keep making you crazy. You are not the crazy one here!