</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to muster some of that strength you started getting this afternoon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where did it go? Why? Its like I'm just waiting for him to say, i do want to work this out, I'll do whatever it takes. But he won't. He never will. I need to just face the fact that he doesn't want me.

He said this is not easy for him to walk away. I said it is much easier to walk away than to commit and try to fix things.

I just want to wake up from this nightmare.

He says he doesn't want to hurt me, but he's torturing me.

I think you handled this well - you can't help showing him that this is hurting you, and he needs to see it, but you didn't LB by screaming, shouting, or accusing.

Remember that he needs to go through this in order for reality to hit him hard in the guts. Its already hitting you, but he doesn't feel it yet.

I think you are in a good place to go to plan B - he actually wants to stay and have a movie and margaritas?! So he thinks this will make it up to you, or he wants to be able to force some semblance of normal life back into what's happening? He wants you to pretend this isn't hurting you and its what you really want. He wants you to wave him out the door with a smile? That ain't going to happen and I'm glad you didn't take the bait.

You did good, nid. When and if he goes, he will know that he has hurt you, but you haven't ruined your chance of reconciliation by giving way to anger. I remember one poster here said that she took off her wedding ring and put it in an envelope. When he went out the door, she put her arms around him and kissed him. She gave him the envelope and said, "When you find my husband, tell him he can bring this back to me." That hit him really hard.

He told me that he is just numb. While he loves me and cares for me and doesn't want to hurt me, he feels so numb to my efforts.

This is because he is still in contact with OW. He has just explained to you beautifully why NC is absolutely necessary for a marriage to reach the recovery stage. And this is also why plan B is necessary - any efforts you make in plan A aren't getting through to him.

He doesn't know if he wants to reconcile and he insists OW has nothing to do with this at all.

My H said this too - he said the problems were with our marriage and that his feelings for OW were just a coincidence. Fog, fog, fog!

He said I keep making the issue about her and not our M? Does that make sense to anyone?

All you can do is stress that you are willing to work on your problems with him, but that isn't possible unless the OP is out of the picture. He wants to throw you off the scent and put you back into a place where you blame yourself. This is addiction-talk.

Hasn't OW become a large part of our problem regardless of whether she is the cause or result of our problems?

Of course she has. Your marriage, like all of ours, had problems - all marriages have some problems - and affairs are usually a symptom of problems in the marriage. But affairs bring out the immaturities in both spouses and force them up to the surface - in order for a marriage to survive an affair, both spouses have to mature in some way, so they force us to deal with some of our problems in a very painful way. Although I was the BS, there were things I was doing that weren't helpful in our marriage, which I can see with hindsight. All I could do was try to learn, painstakingly, a different way of dealing with myself. So even if H hasn't learned (I don't really know at this point what he has learned), at least I have learned something that will help me.

But right now, the primary problem in your marriage is the OW - you are right to expect his faithfulness, regardless of any problems in your marriage, and you are right to believe that unless she is out of the picture, it is impossible to work on your marriage. You have healthy instincts, nid - don't let his statements confuse those healthy instincts.

I'm really sorry you are going through this, nid, and I am praying things will turn out well for you in the end, but I know it is a tough road. A lot of people on this forum have walked in your shoes, and we can't take the pain away, but we can walk with you while you go through it.

LIR

<small>[ March 06, 2004, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its like I'm just waiting for him to say, i do want to work this out, I'll do whatever it takes. But he won't. He never will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He won't right now, because he can't see it. It isn't you that doesn't want to make this marriage work, it is him. He is the one that doesn't want to work at it and can't see that it can be better than it ever was. He can't see that he can have the wife he always wanted in you.

It is because he is an alien right now. It isn't that he never will, it is just that he can't see it right now. You can, and it is frustrating that he can't. He is like a drug addict still; not himself. He will be this was until the fantasy of the A has a chance to change to reality. It will/should happen if you can be patient. It could take 4-6 months, a year or less. He could move out and realize his mistake in a couple of months. But, don't count on it. You are best served by appearing like you are willing to move on if that is what he wants.

If he doesn't come to his senses then you have to believe that you will survive and maybe even be better off. You are still young and attractive, you are smart and you have a lot going for you. You have to not need him. If it comes to that, you won't have a problem meeting someone else.
And then you will have the tools to have a succussful marriage from all that you have learned through this.

My H and I were on a walk the other night. We passed an (attractive) guy who said to my H that his is a lucky guy. (I recently turned 51) I laughed because I had been saying that I looked dorky wearing shorter pants with the wrong shoes with socks for our walk and not the sandles that would have looked better with what I was wearing.
Obviously, the guy wasn't looking my feet.

If only you would not take everything he utters to your heart. Put a shield of understanding around it and maybe some pity for his loss right now. For the time he will use up going through this can creating so much more pain for everyone involved....not the least of which his only son.

You can do all things in Christ. Let the Lord give you the strength to endure. Take it to the cross. You can do this.

Nid,

YES! It does make sense what he said about you making the problem about her and not your marriage. I know that I am going against what someone else said but let me clarify. He sees that you have focused on her and she is brought up repeatedly. Take her out of the equation. If you are still in Plan A, you need to remove her from your conversations with him etc.. I'm not saying give him permission to talk to and see her. I think you should be very clear that in order for you to recover there must be NO Contact. He's going to have to arrive at that decision himself. That's where a good Plan A comes in. He can't be "educated" right now by you with this MB stuff. He will be very defensive and resistant.
After I found out, I made it clear to my H that she was not to have anything to do with my children and that I would not allow them to be anywhere near them (she was the secretary). I also let him know, that continued contact was unacceptable to me. That didn't mean that he ceased contact immediately but he knew what needed to happen. They saw and talked to eachother for a couple of months after that. But things were fast on the decline because they were no longer a secret and I was doing an excellent Plan A. During my Plan A, I never ever used her name or acknowledged her existance to him. I continued to do everything in my power to show him that home was the most pleasant place for him to be. Meanwhile, she senses something is going on and starts pressing him for decisions and comittments that he is not ready to make. Which environment do you think ended up looking better? Focus on your H and your marriage. Stop talking about her (that doesn't mean bury your head in the sand). He knows contact is not an option if you two are going to repair things. Set a time limit that you are willing to do this and when that time comes, if he is still waffeling, go to Plan B. He will take advantage as long as he sees that you are willing to accept the occasional tidbits he throws you just to keep you in line. It's time for you to gather your strength and take control.

Cleo,
It is obvious that Nid and her H have their own marital issues that can be worked on. But that isn't going to happen as long as OW is in the equation.

Nid doesn't really need to bring up OW to him in conversations anymore but she needs to believe that his addiction to OW is not in her imagination. When he gets the Plan B letter she's made her desires and intentions clear.

I was reading on lordslady's thread. She is in plan B and separated. Her H calls her saying/ sounding like he is missing his W. That is her H wanting his fix from her. She answered the calls and got her hopes up. Yes, there is hope but it is too soon for her too. Now, he knows he has a bit more time to waffle. You can only give those fixes so many times. Why else do they usually ask if they've met someone else or if they are going to date while they are separated unless they need to know they still have them in the wings in case it doesn't work with OW.

They need a chance to miss their wives and a chance for their fantasy of OW to start to pale in comparison. They need the bubble to burst.

I don't think Nid's H will wake up tomorrow and realize he really can be happy in his marriage and he really does love Nid. I don't see it happening yet. He has to see that he could lose Nid in order to realize that he wants her. And if he loses her what will he have in OW? She won't be all that he wants. Not likely.

She has 3 little kids that aren't his after all. It would not be a picnic for him.

I think that his OW is a pretty smart and strong cookie herself. She feels confident in what she is doing by filing for D. Whether or not it has anything to do with Nid's H is not for certain, time will tell.

Maybe Nid's H thinks the grass is greener on the other side with or without OW. Again, time will tell.

Nid will have to play it by ear but also stick to her plan.

I'm sorry 4give, I think that you have misunderstood my post. I, in no way, advocate bringing the OW up. I said do not discuss her. Plan A is about making yourself and your home a desirable and safe place for your spouse. Plan B is about saving the remaining love you have for your spouse by removing them from the environment until they can get it straight. Never did I say that her husband would wake up any day now. In fact, I said that once I stated what I would not tolerate that it took a few months of Plan A with him still talking to and seeing her before he realized that she and their relationship was not all that he thought it was. It does not matter the status of the OW's marriage or what she wants. What is key is how the H perceives his marriage and are his needs being met by his spouse. If you are to believe Dr. Harley's love bank theory, then NID needs to be making deposits in order for him to get that "in love" feeling again.
I am sure that many old timers here will tell you that concentrating on the OW/OM detracts from Plan A. That is my major point.

Also, the beauty of this board is that we get the opinions of many people who have been through what we have and have valuable experience to share. We may pick one or two things from a couple of people that work for us or we may just come here to vent. I'm not sure why you felt you needed to correct me. Are we all not sharing opinions and experiences here?

I agree with you Cleo. I didn't think that you meant that. I just think that he isn't making sense in the scope of things.

And, yes, we all draw from everyones experiences and sift through it to find our own individual paths.

I think the stuff you said about her plan A was said several pages back. Actually, I think I'm starting to repeat myself.

I know that prayer works. I've been praying that Nid's husband's conscience gets stronger and that he starts to see through his fog. It would be such a shame for him to lose the wonderful potential happiness he has with Nid and their son.

I agree with you on prayer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with you, too, Cleopatra - it is OK for the BS to bring up the OW in the early stages of exposure and confronting about the affair. But once that's done, the BS should resist the temptation to focus on the OP - I think you said it very well. Bringing up the OW just gives the WS an excuse to fight with you and blame the BS for harping on about it.

I meant that right now, she is right to feel that the OW is the major factor in the breakdown of their marriage.

I don't know how others think about this, but one of the things I did was make it clear to my H that if we separated, or divorced, I was not going to be "friends". I told him that it was common these days for everyone to stay on good terms with their "ex", but that would not be the case with me. I would be reasonable, and I would never try to interfere in his R with his children - I respected him as a father and had no desire to take his children away from him. But if he went, our friendship ended there. I said that I had married for life, and could never be anything other than his wife, until and unless we had our marriage annulled. Because of the commitment we had given each other, he was the one person in the world I could not consider to be "just a friend". With me it was all or nothing, I could be his friend within marriage, but I would not choose to be "friends" outside of marriage. I never told him the "I will always be your friend" line, in other words - quite the opposite.

I think that shocked my H - he knew I meant it, and I still do. My H would have sucked me dry and used me as a surrogate mother to help him solve all his problems, while pouring all his romantic attention into another woman. That sucks, basically, and I wasn't going to allow him to use me that way. In the end he did not move out and we are still together - I think he realized that moving out would mean losing me completely. But I made that clear - in a GENTLE way, without anger, just so he understood. In other words, I didn't wait for him to move out and then sock it to him in a plan B letter afterwards - I warned him first verbally. If he had moved out, I would have put it in writing in a plan B letter.

I don't know what others think of this tack - I'd be interested to know - it seemed to work for me, but then, I was ready emotionally for him to move out if that's what he wanted. I had reached a point where I knew what I wanted and I tried not to waffle over it.

I hope today was OK, nid.

LIR

I basically said the same thing to my H as LIR said to hers. I felt exactly the same way and explained to him as she did to her H. I just added that I didn't have "friends" that lied to me or would betray me and asked him what in the world gave him the idea that I would be ok with being friends?!

Again it wasn't a LB. It was rational, logical, healthy thought. He couldn't dispute it's legitimacy. It's easy for WS to brush off the BS when we come from a place of emotion, but when we come from a place of logic and self confidence they pay much closer attention.

nid,

You are handing over your power to the OW by focusing on her as the cause of your marital demise. She's not the cause. Your H's poor decisions are the cause. She stays in control of your life as long as you focus on her. Your H isn't going to change his mind about OW's responsibility in all this right now. If he did, he'd have to admit how wrong it all was/is. Right now he's in the middle of coping with all this with denial and projection. Mentioning her and blaming her at this point only serves to cement his thought that you and he can't communicate, that you don't understand, that it will never work because he sees you not being able to look at yourself. You give him ammunition with her very mention.

He's stated what he wants, you've stated your position and wished him well, now he need to get what he's been saying he wants. How else will he ever be sure (and how else will you ever be sure that he knows) that he's giving up something he might never be able to replace?

Well, that's three of us, LIR. I said just about the same things you and Mthrrhbard did back in Dec 2002 when my H asked if we could still be friends if he left me. I was calm, firm, and without anger when I told him.

LIR and mthrrhbard and 4give,

Your tactic was excellent and you did a great job outlining it for Nid.
My H only relates to logical speak. The only way I ever got through to him during the A was to speak in a very calm logical way.

Nid,
I have been reading your thread and now feel compelled to join in. YOu are getting some great support and advice here.

I urge you to listen. You and your H sound exactly like me and my H. I FINALLY went to Plan B. I didn't want to, I had the same feelings you had. H said it wasn't about OW, but our problems and how I made him feel. So, dear Nid, I bought it and came back. No NC letter and not enough safeguards to ensure no contact ever again.

To make a long story short, I worked very, very hard on myself, making the changes he wanted, at first because I wanted him to be happy, and then because I could see that they were needed for me to be the best I could be. But I beat myself up a lot and felt terrible about myself, compared myself to OW, the whole bit. I did a lot of stuff that wasn't necessary or helpful. I want to keep you from doing that to yourself.

Long story short, over a YEAR after the end of Plan B, OW continues to call H. Most of the time he hangs up, but about once a month they talk. Guess what? H still says the same things to me--not about OW, not in love with me, but loves me, doesn't want to hurt me....blah, blah, blah!!

Nid, beware! Dont' let this happen to you--get into a real Plan B and quick. Stay strong and see what happens with your H. Don't take him back until the OW is gone for good and he is willing to prove it. Until he shows you the attitude that he understands how he hurt you and wants to make it right.

After all this time, that is where I am now. Much too late I am realizing that he isn't going to change unless it hurts less to change than to keep going on in this way.

I have an appointment with Steve Harley on Monday for help in setting parameters. I have already told H that when he returns from his business trip he MUST have a written plan for how he will stop all contact with OW (even though he doesn't call her, she calls him, and this is one of his reasons why its not about her--huh?)

What I really want to say is this: he is showing all the signs that he isn't there with you yet, not out of the fog and not going to change--yet. But I believe that some of these WS's just take a lot longer and have to be in a lot more pain in order to finally make the break. Save yourself months and possibly years of heartache and be strong, do this now.

Even if you can only afford one call to the Harley's, it helps.

I am thinking of you. I hope this helps you even a little. I feel your pain.

BTW, after the Plan B H promised to write the NC letter, but I came home before it was done, and he never did it.

This time, he can not live with me until he has gotten rid of her and will honestly put all of his energy into our M.

So, you have to stay strong all the way, accept no less than what you deserve. I know it hurts, but it is the worst to have all the effort you put in go to waste and have to face starting all over again. Believe me, at this point I am having a hard time mustering the desire to even try. I think I will be able to if he shows me by his actions that he is going to do what is needed, but if he doesn't, I am done.

Nid,

I just read a bunch of the posts on here and I think they're really on the mark. (I also read my name in one of the posts--and the person who wrote it is correct, I keep giving my WH 'fixes' by answering the phone when he calls--BAD of me!)

I have not done a good plan B yet. I'm learning. I still keep answering that darned phone-and then I have to make sure I don't LB. But I have been absolutely FIRM about not seeing him. He called repeatedly again today until I finally answered the phone. He couldn't get anyone at home, couldn't get me on my cell, couldn't get me at work, and was worried something was wrong. (Well, maybe he should give up OW and be home--and then he'd know--but I DIDN'T say that.)

I told him everything was fine. Then after a little small talk, he asked AGAIN if I'd be willing to consider seeing him sometime. And AGAIN, I said "not until you've broken all contact with OW". He doesn't like hearing that. He just keeps trying.

Today's foggy statement was that he was going to have everything taken care of by the middle of April. I just told him I was moving on with my life (He said, "Is that a threat?" and I said, "Not at all. I still love you, but I'm not going to sit around home and wait for things to happen. I'm going to continue to live and to function. I'm just not going to wait forever for you to make your decision.")

Don't be like me. If he moves out and you Plan B (which at this point I think would help you get away from the pain thinking of the OW causes), don't answer the calls from him like I do. Just stay quiet.

Although I am VERY lonely yet and miss my H dearly, and haven't come to the point where I can accept that we might not be together again, there has been relief (even before I went to "official" Plan B) since he moved to his own place, because I don't have to wonder if he'll be home, or if he's with OW every second. I am distanced from it to a degree, and that does help.

LL

<small>[ March 06, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

lordslady and Nid,

With my H's last A I didn't have to go to a Plan B. But the OW had already started to LB before D-day. He knew I wouldn't take much. I didn't exhibit anger. I was already doing a bit of a plan A before I came to MB. I found MB right around or just before D-day. Before D-day he was telling me that he was thinking he didn't love me anymore or that he wanted to move out. He was being critical of everything I did or didn't do and was very distant again. I was trying to be better. I thought that maybe I had gotten complacent again and wasn't working hard enough on the marriage. Then I realized his attitude was really from his own guilt and mostly justification for another A he was involved in.

With the previous A, which was much more seriously an addiction accompanied by thick fog, I didn't have MB or much support. I floundered and tried many approaches with a few false recoveries and lots more pain. I read some in HNHN and read all of Dobson's 'Love Must Be Tough and applied his advice which was very helpful. I didn't do a full plan B. I did take some calls when we were separated but it worked best when it finally seemed like I was moving on with my life and starting to make some plans for my potential future without him. We have a business together so I'd see him some mornings. I'd give him stuff to read or tapes to listen to. I told him I thought seeing an IC would be helpful for him. He had finally moved in with OW and her 3 kids. It took, maybe, a couple of months before the fog lifted, the bubble burst and he ended it with her once and for all. That one lasted on and off for 4 yrs ('94-'98) with about 2 separations.

I was more attractive a choice when I exuded more confidence, stability, and calm. It never worked when I was reduced to a pathetic, frail, needy, angry, bitter, unforgiving mess.

Also you need to know at some point that forgiveness is good for you. Be better, not bitter.

Just a quick thought.Are you taking the anti depressants that SH recommends at this stage? Seems to me from reading your post that this would help you to hold yourself together during a difficult time.

WOW! You guys have really been talking while I've been out of pocket! All your advice is very good and I am taking it.

Its hard for me to post now that my H is back in town. We've done a lot of talking this weekend, mostly about him moving out. Its been very difficult once the reality of it all hits me. Bottom line is I don't want him to go. But, after much tears about it, I'm coming to some sort of resolve, almost an indifference.

Yesterday we went to our S's basketball team party and it was so hard just being around people with my H. I felt like I couldn't act like he was my H. Then I started to realize that once we split up, it will be even worse. That put me in a really bad mood yesterday.

Today was better. I went to church, alone, and it gave me some peace. Basically, we've decided that my H is going to move out at the end of this month. He asked me if I could try to make this a positive experience instead of a negative one. I said, I'm not going to make it negative, but I hardly think it is going to be positive, especially for our S. How can it be?

I'm so confused. And I know he's so confused, even more than me. I'm just going to love him and let him go without a fight.

I'm going to get my hair cut this week, maybe get a pedicure, and just take care of me. I'm going to work hard to be confident.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: nid ]</small>

Hi Nid,
Sounds like you are doing okay...al thinks considered.

Take a look at ChristyV's thread and the link to her story if you haven't read it. You will see more similarities in what WS's say. I think is helps to see how these situations, the patterns,the things said are so not unique. It is easier to see it as fogspeak when you are able to accept that.

Isn't it too weird how he is hot and cold. He is so confused and giving you mixed messages wanting to make sure he has you waiting in the wings for him.

Good to here from you. I figured it was difficult for you to post this weekend.