As whoever has read my posts know, OW's last day of work at H's business was 2/27/04. Now the wonderful withdrawal stage has set in. I just love all the different stages and strategies of recovery. Actually I can't even say we are in recovery yet.

Yesterday was our first MC session. At first all the anger came out due to me talking to OW on Friday. Me angry because he TOTALLY supported her in front of me. Poor baby had to actually face the W of the H she was screwing around with. H angry at me for my total lack of sensitivity for having the gall to talk to OW, ESPECIALLY at his place of business. Lucky for me the therapist said that as uncomfortable as the situation was for H I did what I needed to do for my own healing. The therapist was great! Actually told H that relationships in which there is an imbalance of power, in this case boss/employee, rarely work out. He said our most powereful 1st love relationships are with our parents. OW looks at H as her daddy. He claims when these A's end up in marriage their sex life usually stinks because OW now feels like she is having sex with daddy. Boy, I have to tell you, I was loving that speach! He also told H he'd stay as far away from OW as possible because she has up to 2 yrs. to file a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Whether H took any of this in, who knows?

He is in major withdrawal. At 6 am I guess he chilled out on the "no affection since friday" stance and kind of reached out to me. I said, "Do you need a hug?" I could hear him sighing and doing panic type breathing. He said "Yes" and we held each other. He asked me why I was being so good to him, or staying with him. I can't remember. I said, "I guess I'm not ready to leave you yet." He picked up on the "yet". I told him I know he's going through the withdrawal stage and I'm here for him. However, at some point he has to start kicking in.

Before he went to work you wouldn't believe the gloominess. The long face, the sighs, the "Life sucks" comments. I've gotta tell you, this man isn't looking too attractive to me right now. In MC yesterday he was very wishy washy about what he wants. He went from begging me to stay and work on recovery 2 weeks ago, to this. I said, "Just to let you know, I'm not looking at you as this great prize right now. It's not all about you choosing me. I have to decide whether I want to choose you."

This morning I read a thread from yesterday where WSs were talking about how tough the 6 month to a year phase of this is. Also wondering if it's worth the effort and pain. Crap, I'm only about 2 months into this. I'm looking at H as such a weak guy right now. He had OW supporting him. Now he has me supporting him while he's soooo sad about losing OW. Is there a time in this process where the WS stops thinking about himself? I quoted him the title of a song, "You Get What You Give." He said something like, "Wonder if you don't FEEL like giving?" My reply, "Do you think I FEEL like giving right now? Part of your problem is that you have been following your feelings too much." So was that an LBer, or just a well deserved dose of reality? AS always any comments are appreciated. Especially from those of you who are in recovery. Thanks! CV

Dear CV,

I think that you did just great! You are helping him, but standing up for yourself and seeing reality and sharing it with him. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

The thing you said about him going by his feelings too much got me to thinking about his Enneagram personality type. My H has that problem too. He based his actions on how he felt instead of tempering that with a healthy dose of reality. We had a power struggle where he was always trying to get me to see how important his feelings were and I was always trying to get him to see reality. Well, he gets it now...so there is hope!!! He now is very good at checking in with his feelings and then determining how much power to give them. I have had to do the opposite. I've had to learn to trust and to feel my feelings. My tendency is to look at reality only and that's a very harsh way to go through life.

You guys might want to test yourselves with one of the free online tests or get the book mentioned in my signature line, The Essential Enneagram . There is a great test in there. It might be a good way to get him to see where he's at without you having to be the one to tell him. It will be more powerful if he discovers it himself. He may also find that he isn't so amazingly special or unordinary. My H's type is terrified of being ordinary. They feel that nobody understands the depth of their feelings. They are very melancholic and often depressed. It's sort of their claim in life to "feel" beyond what others are capable of feeling.

Take care!

Stillwed

Stillwed, after reading your marital history I feel like a real wimp. How in the world did you withstand finding out about all those affairs? Today I am feeling incredibly down about this one. Of course it was an EA/PA, and I know what a battle it's going to be for H to get over the fantasy that this was the perfect love.

We've never done eanegrams. I've always been interested. We have both taken the meyers-Briggs personality test. We are both "introverted, intuitive, feeling" types. Where we differ is he's a "J" for judgement, and I'm a "P" for perceptive. My H doesn't acknowledge or deal with his feelings well. He hates conflict. He obviously kept the secret that he was developing feelings for OW. Tried to deny and avoid, then just moved into lies and deception, which was so unlike him until now. That's the hardest part of this.

The last crisis we had in late 90s he withdrew from me and had an affair with his guitar. Unfortunately for me, this time there was a very willing participant, in H's words, who was right there for him. In both cases he could bury his feelings.

My belief is we need to acknowledge our feelings, but not be led by them. Sometimes actions have to precede the feelings. As our shrink said yesterday, if everybody went with their feelings in a marriage, we'd all be divorced. Because H allowed himself these stage one friggin feelings, I think he doesn't get how we have to make an effort to get our feelings back. I don't think he thinks it's even possible.

DO NOT kick yourself for feeling down about all of this. The more you do it, the longer recovery will be. I've tried just "choosing" to put it behind me and it hasn't worked. I have to work through every darned emotion...including the tears I cried today when he was meeting with a new boss, hadn't had a chance to call all day and was meeting a new coworker that he'd never met. I was panic stricken when I didn't hear from him by lunch time even though I knew everything was just fine and nothing was going on. It's called a trigger and I'm sick of 'em too!!!!

You just hang in there. Do the Enneagram test. It's such a great help once you figure out your type and start reading. It will help you understand your H better too and that will be comforting. Once you figure out what's going on in their heads you realize just how much this is about them and not you. That feels good.

Hugs to you!

Stillwed

Couldn't help noticing the title of this thread.

The past two days have been ?the weirdest two days of my life?.

My oldest adult son called me and told me he'd run into the OM on Mon. Said he was their at the dealership checking his new GF's car in for some repairs. No big deal, right?

I made offhanded remark to WW about the call, and the content, and she went to pieces the rest of the night. Seems for the past 6 months she has harbored continuous thoughts about the OM, regardless of the fact OM had NOT contacted her since September 03, and WW had only (broken NC) seen him maybe 6-7 times in the past 6 months. She had not given up on the thought that somehow the fantasy would continue???????????

Plus, and how weird is this, I had to stay home from work yesterday and console her, because of all the pain she had to endure learning her fantasy had just come to a screeching halt. Hopefully some of her emotions were sorrow, remorse, guilt, etc. Who knows???

So now I get to start enduring HER pain from withdrawal, which I thought had started back in September????

Recovery is definately not for wimps. I sit here and wait for a call from our MC/IC so I can A. vent, and B. get some input on how to go forward from here.

I even gave her permission to call OM yesterday, (I know, big freakin' no-no) to get closure. Which she said she did get, and doesn't have any plans of ever contacting him again, and I know he won't contact her, because he never did through the whole A.

I don't even give a crap about all that. I'm just having a hard time feeling good about me. Everything that took place is WAY against my nature. Allowing the call, comforting my WW while she grieves for the OM, and knowing Withdrawal has just begun.

I feel about knee high to a piss ant right now, like I've lost all self respect, plus the anger is nearly explosive. But in my heart of hearts, I need to accept the "gift" of info about the OM's new GF, and know that I did the "right" thing in comforting my WW.

But the whole thing is about as natural as swallowing a grapefruit, and about as much fun.

Thanks for letting me vent!!!

SD

ShatteredDreams, I can definitely relate. I have been in the unenviable position of playing the fool to protect W's reputation. So I pretent I don't know that she slept with this guy who is occassionally in our home. I'm very easy going guy but this is even too much for me. After struggling with this for 2 years (it was ONS) I have finally got W talking to Steve Harley and have finally decided I will never be in this guys company again. She will; I won't. Sounds foolish but if nothing else I won't be playing the fool anymore. The whole process is very emasculating. Hang in there.

This guy is still welcome in YOUR home???

Thanks all! Well, it's hours since I wrote the above post and I still think this whole withdrawal sucks! Actually now I'm thinking the whole recovery process sucks, and I ain't even in recovery yet. SD, You're right, this process isn't for wimps. I'm thinking I might be one right now. At this moment I feel like why would any of us endure all this crap? Just what this MB site needs, someone as negative as me right now.

Stillwed, you said it's important to allow our feelings. That's exactly what I did tonight. H and I went for a walk. Before we went he had that oh so gloomy face again. I went into the bathroom and wanted to scream. I felt so pissed off. Like his month of crappy feelings compares to being cheated on since last June, or before. I still don't know the truth. So as we're walking I'm suddenly doing my interogation thing. I once again gave him the puzzle analogy. How he has the pieces to the puzzle and can see the picture on the box. He's the only one who can help me understand. Once again it's like talking to a wall. The only thing I got was how intense their feelings were, which of course I just love hearing. By the end of the walk he told me I was creating a scene. We were in a mall. I actually wasn't. Now who are you going to believe? Me, or the guy who's been cheating on me all these months? Now by the time we were in the car I was yelling. He had told me I can ask all the questions I want , but he doesn't see the revalence in answering all my questions. How will this help us heal? Me yelling: How dare you decide how I should heal. You made the unilateral decision to have an A, and now you're deciding what's best for me. I barely have any more info than I did one month ago. H: You know I had deep feelings for OW. Me: You told me that one month ago.

Mingled in with the yelling was crying. All of a sudden I felt the pain once again of his betrayal. Once again I found myself asking him how he could have brought this poison into our marriage. How he could have thought so little of me, especially during one of the worst years of my life. H says he made a huge mistake. Somehow "mistake" doesn't do it for me. A mistake isn't putting someone you supposedly love through hell for at least 7 months. Am I wrong about that?

Sd, I guess I'm venting too. I don't know what I would have done in your shoes. Whoa! You think you're 6 months into withdrawal and W springs these feelings on you? Comforting the WS through their loss of the OP is the part that makes me want to puke the most. I love your swallowing a grapefruit analogy, but I'd increase the size to at least a watermelon. What the hell are we, saints? Maybe we should ask Pope Paul to canonize us all? I'm personally thinking I must have done something really bad in a past life. I know I didn't deserve all of this from anything I did in this life?

My H told me he is still reeling from my actions on Friday, even though he understands it better. I'm like, "you're reeling! You treated your girlfriend better than your W of almost 19 yrs., and you're reeling." He said right now he feels numb. I asked him when he's going to start kicking in here. I'm getting tired of being the strong one. SD, was it you who told me at times you get impatient because you want it to be further along than it is? That is me exactly right now. And the odd thing is I don't even like H right now. I'd much rather meet somebody like one of the men on this site who have integrity and are working their butts off to save their marriages. Of course I'd want to meet you all after we are all single. OK, please don't anybody kick me off the MB site for saying that. I obviously am still in my ranting mode. Thanks for letting me get that out! I HATE THIS PROCESS!!!!!!!!!!!
Am I glad I enjoyed my day of humor with that game. I knew it wouldn't last long.

CV55

I can relate to every word you said. All I can say, is that I have been in Plan A since I discovered this site in December, and have done it well.

LB's used to be a part of our daily routine, as well as disrespectful judgements. It's just how we interacted every day. So I took Plan A to heart, and I swear if I've committed over 5 LoveBusters since December, I'd be shocked and dissapointed in myself.

I've endured foggy, angry outbursts from WW that appear for no (apparent) reason, but I know they have come from her guilt, anxiety, sorry, grief, and everything else that's going on inside a WS's head.

Somhow I have mastered numbing my feelings towards her when she has those outbursts. Same thing for my own feelings. I have mastered numbing them down for her when I have just had my fill of "being disrespected and totally abused" by the affair experience.

All of this up until Monday night, when all of the above post took place. Sure, I stayed home from work and consoled her for her "loss" when she discovered the OM had a new GF, but I guess, more than that, I showed her that what I told her way back at DDay, that I was serious about saving the marriage and MY ACTIONS have told the story to her.

She knows most of what she's said to me over the past several months have been Bu((Sh(t. And she know she's ripped my heart out. But it all became very clear to her Tuesday, when I stayed home from work and stayed by her side all day without LB's or DJ's and just hugged her and comforted her all day and night.

You could almost hear the fog being sucked out of her head. She has looked at me several times since then and I KNOW we have started to reconnect. The smile she gave me this morning was a connected smile, and it told me more than words could have ever said.

The whole Plan A is to make yourself a better choice for your WS than is the OP, and I dedicated myself to doing just that. It appears that my work is beginning to pay off.

CV55, don't sweat the fog talk. It's not the guy you knew. And please try to control the LB's, because everyday the last thing you need to do is make the OP appear as a better choice to his foggy head. Make yourself the more attractive human being, continue posting, reading learning, and exercising Plan A to the max. Remember how early you are in the game compared to most of the others here. Lean on those around you that support you, and most of all HAVE FAITH in what you are doing.

SD

SD, just read your reply and it made me cry. I don't know what I'd do without the support of you and the others on this site. Heck, I'm crying again! I'd either be in the loony bin, or H would be living somewhere else. Do you believe I've been conducting therapy with people? When I told my supervisor what was happening in my life a month ago, I asked, "Do you really want me working with clients? I'm on an AD, sleep meds, and going through the worst time in my life." She replied, "Well, your clients seem to be thriving, so it's fine." For some odd reason they are doing well, and I've been able to be there for them. But it is really rough.

I don't know how to be perfect during this process. Fill his love bank, no LBs, with barely anything in return. I wonder if I should just back off during this intense withdrawal period. One of the problems is he not only screwed up our marriage, but put his work life in total turmoil. So he is missing her terribly also for how she met his work needs. You want to talk about a major LBer. He was miserable this morning. Totally stressed. Hasn't had a day off in weeks. Now he has to train everybody, and he doesn't even know half the things she did. So I said, "If you want to hire her back, hire her back. If you think that will make your life so much easier." He said, "LIke that's going to happen." My reply, "You can, it's just our marriage will be over." A part of me almost wouldn't mind. He has been so consumed with his business problems that he can't work on our marriage now. I thought when she was out of there we'd have the chance to begin recovery, but I am on the back burner. He told me today he thinks about calling her every day, but hasn't.

Oh, I did a real doozy LBer last night. My friend told me OW reminds her of Morticia Adams. When I confronted OW on Friday I realized she does resemble her. Shared that info with H last night. Of course he thought that was very cruel of friend to comment on OW's looks. I know, it's not about their looks, it's how they make the WS feel.

I guess I better read Plan A again before I call her up and ask if she'd please take H back. H had me up from about 5 to 7 am this morning. He was having panic attacks. Of course I did my best to comfort him, even though this time I wasn't into it. I told him they will pass. I had them pretty bad when he was vacationing in Az. I didn't say, "But I had no one to comfort me during that time." I am really in the anger stage.

I'm going to post in the recovery section to WSs. I need to know when the WS stops rewriting history. He literally can't remember ANYTHING good about our marriage. I am really tired of trying to correct his faulty memory.

Thanks again! Another long , venting post. Yuck!

CV55

The turning point for my is when my immense pride, the deep pain of confrontation, the grief, the fear and the shock were all put to the side for just one moment, and the clear thought came to me....

The psyche of the WS is totally geared to interact with the BS in such a way as to extract anger, LB's, DJ's, and all the other emotions we are doing our best to control... for one simple reason. To enable them to keep their "love" for the BS way out of the picture, so their "true love" for the OP remains intact. And so they have a reason to believe the OP is "so much better than what I have at home".

My OP treats me like a king/queen, we discuss no negative topics, we do not fight and I feel "sooooo Goooooood" when I'm with the OP.

When I go "home", my pitiful spouse is needy, wants answers, wants comfort, wants love, wants, wants, wants. Makes me very uncomfortable when I'm there. I don't feel sooooo goood when I'm at home with BS. I'm "always" comfortable around OP.

See my point? When I realized that every negative thing I did drove WW away, that's when I set my resolve to be the shelter from the storm for my WW. Was it easy? He(( no! Does it work? He)) yes, but not until employed over a long period of time, and with VERY few speedbumps.

You have control over your brain and it's actions. Exercise that control, and be the STRONG person that you are. People unconsciously "shut out" bad experiences from childhood. Adults can train their mind to "shut out" pain consciously, when it serves their needs.

Get on top of your feelings. Make WS understand he can't engage you in verbal warfare. Make him understand that your love for him is unfaltering, and that you can outlast his desire to have the OP in his life.

Apply heavy doses of patience and understanding to the above, and you are in Plan A. Set a time limit that you can live with, and at that time, evaluate your progress.

Pulling for you in every way!!!

SD

PS... surely you have some photo albums, scrap books or home videos that will remind him of one or two good memories????

SD

SD, I'm laughing about your "ps". Now I have to do a picture or video presentation to remind H of all our good memories? Maybe I can call in some eyewitnesses to attest to the fact we had some happy times while I'm at it.

I am just incredibly tired of the effort and lack of sleep right now. Actually H doesn't engage me in angry outbursts. If it was up to him he'd just not talk. He is the master of denial and avoidance. The problem is that behavior was killing me before the A was revealed. I prefer "this" to that any day. He is letting me know how totally miserable he is. I'm not walking around in front of him saying "life sucks.", even though it does. He told me on the phone yesterday, "How come you are handling everything so well?"

So are you saying for now just try not to connect through conversation? I know that is a major EN for me, so it's difficult. Plus, I don't want him keeping secrets from me. I'm trying to do that radical honesty thing, but I really hate hearing about OW. In fact, I'm actually feeling extreme dislike for OW at the moment. For now should I just forget about my ENs? What is a reasonable time to not have him make an effort? He reminded me that he did fire OW. OK, that's great. But I don't want to go to MC once a week, but then do no recovery work between sessions.

I'm confused! Are you understanding any of my babbling? Bottom line, can we even do recovery work when he is at the beginning of withdrawal? Plus, I'm afraid if he slips up with OW I will not be able to tolerate it. He did fill out the EN questionaire last night. I still have to do mine. I have a headache and don't feel capable being able to communicate anymore. Thanks friend!

This post is helping me so much. I've been feeling so much pity and helplessness for myself, especially last night and this morning, trying to figure out how I can last through withdrawal.

shattered dreams, I've printed off your remarks on "The Psyche of the WS" and I've taken it to heart. I will not enable my WH to use me as an excuse to romanticize his love for OW. I know we should Plan A for the sake of our marriage, but when I get tired, feel like I have no energy and am powerless, I think I'll Plan A to take away love for OW. Am I twisted?

My D-day was just 2/13 so I am new at this, but if I can channel any of my negative feelings in a positive way to help my marriage - I'll do it.

Thanks for starting this thread! I have all of this energy now. I'm the one who has the opporunity to build and nurture WH's love bank now and I won't look the other way. Our happiness is the only revenge I need. Take that you rotten EA!

WS's are not mentally able to understand the BS's need for having their EN's met. Period.

Affairs are the most selfish act one can commit upon another. They are far to caught up in meeting the EN's of another to be concerned with yours. Period.

Think of the A, and the withdrawal, as a huge granite stone blocking the door between you and a renewed marriage with your WS.

And a genie just appeared and told you the only way the stone would go away, would be for you to diminish its size, but only by the size of a golf ball, each time you met your WS's EN's, or each time you avoided a LB, or DJ. Now remember this stone is as tall and wide as the door back to your WS. It's not going to be diminished in an hour, a day, a month, or even six months. It all depends on your dedication to diminishing the stone, one golf ball sized chip at a time.

And remember, be creative, because each time you avoid LB's, DJ's, etc., you are, in essence, making deposits in WS lovebank. Simply by not making huge withdrawal.

Recovery is not for the weak of heart. You have to find the resolve deep inside yourself to make it happen.

You WS is NOT a part of any progress that will be made, so long as there is 1. contact still being made. 2. Fog in his head. 3. Pain in his heart for the OP.

Only as those things are eliminated, or at least subsiding, will any real progress be made.

Remain vigilante re: NC, Plan A yer butt off, and KEEP THE FAITH.

SD

Hi MB friends.
Yes, for sure, that withdrawal from their 'lover' is hard on us and hard on them!

If you go to the top of this page and click on 'home' and then on the right hand side 'Quick Clicks' and 'The ending', there is a good article by Harley.

Following is part of the message:

How to Get Through Withdrawal

In R.J.'s case, his feelings for his wife are as bad as they have ever been. In the case of M.S.'s husband, he is suffering so much that he can no longer make love to his wife, something that had always come very easily to him in the past. What is happening to these men?

They are experiencing symptoms of withdrawal from the addiction they have to their lovers.

As soon as a victimized spouse decides to stay married and struggle through reconciliation, he or she usually sets out to meet whatever needs the lover had been meeting. If it was sex, the spouse offers more and better sex. If it was affection, it's more affection. Both M.S. and R.J.'s wife were willing to do whatever it took to regain their wayward spouses' love.

But it didn't work for either of them. That's because both of their husbands were in withdrawal. They were both addicted to their lovers and separation from them caused them to suffer from depression. That, in turn, made it almost impossible for their spouses to meet their emotional needs. So all of that love and care that was being extended to them was being wasted. Until they would recover from withdrawal, the efforts of their wives to please them will be very disappointing.

Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.

Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.

It is extremely likely that a commitment to remain separated from a lover will be broken unless extreme measures are taken to avoid it. That's because the emotional reaction of withdrawal is so painful. Honesty is an extremely important element in reconciliation, and it should be understood that if the unfaithful spouse ever sees or communicates with the lover, he or she should immediately tell the spouse that it happened. They should then agree on a plan that would prevent a recurrence of contact in the future. But as soon as any contact is made, it throws the unfaithful spouse back to the beginning of withdrawal, and the time it takes to overcome the feelings of grief begins all over again.

There's a sense in which M.S.'s husband was in withdrawal even before M.S. discovered
the affair. As soon as the move was made, he became depressed, and what M.S. noticed the most was his lack of interest in sex. Depression will do that to you (and so will anti-depressant medication -- one of it's only side effects is a loss of sex drive).

If M.S.'s husband were to avoid talking to his lover for three weeks, it's likely that his sex drive would start to return, since the worst symptoms of withdrawal would probably have ended. He has a long history of sexual interest in his wife, and I guarantee that he will eventually do just fine in bed.

The problem that R.J. may soon face is that his wife's cheerful attitude will wear thin. There's no telling how much longer she can try to please him without an approving response from him. Sometimes I tell spouses to just avoid each other until the withdrawal stage passes because all the effort to be kind and thoughtful is easily wasted until they start feeling better.

It's the stage of recovery after withdrawal that gives spouses the best opportunity to learn to meet each other's most important emotional needs and overcome Love Busters. Spouses should save their most tolerant mood for that stage, where they could both be receptive to each other's care. And that will be the subject of next week's column: Learning to meet each other's needs after an affair.

<small>[ March 04, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Thank you all for your words of encouragement. I was exceptionally down yesterday. Once again I came to the MB command center for help, and all you generals came to my rescue. Have to admit, I was ready to go AWOL. I felt sick of the battle, and wasn't sure what I was fighting for anymore.

I decided I needed some battle songs to help me have some courage. I have the 9/11 tribute album which is actually full of survival songs. I played over and over in the car the 2 most inspirational. Tom Petty's "I won't Back Down" and Mariah Carey's "Hero".

I wrote in the recovery section how I had an insight yesterday. It hit me how I have been buying into H's fog. I wonder if I am rewriting history too positively. In other words, maybe we really do suck, and always have. And, that maybe he and OW are more compatible, and so are better suited for each other. I'm not sure where I am on those points today, but I do feel better.

Thanks Command Center! Private First Class CV55