Hello All,

I haven't posted in a long while, but have continued to lurk weekly.
I still consider FWH & I to be in recovery - it's been almost 2 years since d-day.
We are pretty much past the A stuff and the things that give us the most grief are the things that were there before the A happened.

This week we are dealing with communication issues and I am looking for help - especially from the guys, because I really feel like when I speak with my H that what I intend to say is being translated within him into something totally different than I intended and I don't know how to correct myself or change my approach to make this stop happening.

I'll try to be as brief as possible.....

H has been building a poker table for his friend and finished it this week.
He had mentioned when he started the project last month that this friend was going to begin having poker parties at his home on the second Saturday night of each month. I said that sounded fun and encouraged him to go - especially to the first one, where everyone would be admiring what a great job he did on the table.

So last Tuesday, we are talking and he mentions that he is going to poker night this Saturday. (Apparently the friend changed schedule to first Saturday of month) I say, "Ok - but I feel it is reasonable to ask that you not be gone on both Friday AND Saturday night." (Background - H has had every Friday night to himself since 1990. This was my idea as a compromise to mid-week or unexpected "boys night out" nights we used to fight about) I wait for him to respond to me, but he doesn't - he turns his attention back to the tv.

Ok - by him not disagreeing with me about being home on Friday night, I admit I made the assumption that he was ok with it. .

So along comes Thursday and I text message him at 2pm with two choices for the dinner menu for that night. Our son calls me at work to check in when he arrives home from school, and I ask if H is there. He is - so I ask him which dinner he has decided on. He says, "we should have the chicken because it won't keep". I say, "That's ok, whatever you don't choose tonight I was going to make for dinner tomorrow night." I don't ccok on Fridays, so this is really unusual for us, but he just says again, "chicken tonight" and we hang up.

Friday, son calls to check in after school. I ask if H is there. Son says, "No - but he's already been here & gone already, his work stuff is here." Ok, so I think maybe he's going to have a few beers with the guys before I get home at 5:30, no problem. At 4:45pm I call son to let him know I'll be on-time getting home. I also call H, thinking I'd better ask what time he will be home so I can have dinner ready. H answers cell - he is at the friend's house that is having the poker party the next night. (He lives about 2 miles from us) I ask H what time he wants me to have dinner ready and he says, "Oh, I was going to go to ...........'s (bar name)" I'll just make that frozen pizza later." I say - "I thought you were going to be home tonight." H gets irritated, then says, "I'll be home at 6!!"

He gets home and says, "Well here I am, you got what YOU wanted." I try to defend my position as just being equal time for both family and his buddies. I ask what he thinks went wrong in our communication. He says that I "told" him that "he must STAY home Friday night". ??? That's not what I said. I thought I was using POJA by stating how I felt - "I feel it is reasonable to ask that you not be gone..."
I even had the word "ask" in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When I said that he did not disagree with me, so I assumed (incorrectly) that he felt the same. Ok, I admit that when I did not get a response, I could have asked for clarification - but based on past history, I have a fear of H getting angry with "nagging", so I have learned to say or ask things only once.

He says that it was MY responsibility to get a definite response from him. ???
So it's my duty to extract an response from him when he is fully capable of offering it on his own? That sounds really manipulative to me - especially since I started our M being a "checker" and was beat down for it and learned to not "nag" him. So now he is changing the rules again? So I ask him how "specifically" this issue should have been approached with him so I can avoid this on future issues, He changed the subject and wouldn't go back, so I didn't get my answer.

What really hurts is that he acknowledges that he DID hear me say I'd like him to be home. That he did purposely go out without letting me know he was going, and that he had just been planning on doing his usual Friday routine until I called him.

Ok guys, I am confused now.
I thought I was attempting a reasonable POJA, but I apparently failed in H's eyes.

1. How could I have improved either my approach to the issue or better understood his reaction?

2. Is this typical male thought processing? I really feel like I am speaking another language than my H.

Any insight would be appreciated!


Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ March 06, 2004, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

I have no idea what kind of advice to give you. I will say that I wasn't the greatest husband in the world and my communication with my W was similar to yours and your husband, except my W would just blow it off. Well, she apparently got tired of blowing it off and pretty soon there was little or no communication. This lead to her having an affair.

If you aren't in counseling, it might be a good idea to get in it. Also, you may want to get the book His Needs/Her Needs. Also, if you haven't filled out the emotional needs questionaires you should do this and ask your husband to do the same. I'm sorry I can't give you any better advice...

Firstly what he did seems really disrespectful of your time together.
Secondly he seems to interpret what is not said for his own benefit,
what he did smells really bad, I like "private time" but I dont get defensive about it......
I dont mean to get alarmist but dont be a pushover, be very clear in what you say so he cant weasel his way out of anything. Did you guys get the book "his needs/her needs" ? if not get it and read together it will hopefully open his eyes a little more to what you are feeling... he should respect your feelings and the time that he spends away from you.
hope what i say helps
my prayers are with you
cliff
BS 32
WW 28
DD 3/09/04
OM ?????? I dont know she wont tell me ......
twin 9 year old sons

shelle

you are not going to like my answer..but here it is..

I go to therapy every thursday night...OK it's not therapy it's bowling with the girls...which is cheaper than therapy ..and a lot more fun and funnier than therapy...

soooo if suddenly the da-girls wanted to plan an outing once a month....and my husband expected me to give up one of my bowling nights....
icky icky icky...

Are you asking for equal time..or are you making him feel punished for wanting to play poker one night a month?

so i don't think it's male...cause i like my bowling...

So is it giving in to let him do both...
if you let him do both and are surprisingly supportive...would the pay off be more and better in the long run...

could he play once a month poker on Friday nights? that would be a great solution...

could you let him go on friday but drag his butt out of bed on sat am to wash windows...!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't know shell...
I don't know if I would like to have to give up something...it's 12 nights a year....if that...

ARK

I don't know, I sort of had the same reaction as Ark. It sounds like your idea of POJA is for him to comply with YOUR wishes and give up his Fridays. Apparently that is not what he wanted to do. I would have a problem if my spouse tried to treat me like a kid.

NOW, if I were neglecting my marriage, my DH might have a case to make. On the other hand, are you acting in loving ways that would make him WANT to stay home with you? Or does he just stay home because he feels obligated and doesn't want to hear any griping about it?

I have found that if I give my DH my blessings when he wants to do stuff with his friends, that he usually comes home early because he WANTS to be with me. I wonder if that would work with you?

There are two separate issues here - whether it was reasonable for him to go out two nights in a row, and whether the "miscommunication" was intentional on his part.

[QUOTE]When I said that he did not disagree with me, so I assumed (incorrectly) that he felt the same. Ok, I admit that when I did not get a response, I could have asked for clarification - but based on past history, I have a fear of H getting angry with "nagging", so I have learned to say or ask things only once.

He says that it was MY responsibility to get a definite response from him. ???
So it's my duty to extract an response from him when he is fully capable of offering it on his own? That sounds really manipulative to me - [\QUOTE]

Absolutely that was manipulative and childish as well as typical passive-agressive behavior. This is the mindset behind a lot of adultery - instead of having the guts to talk to their spouses about issues, they go out and have an affair. Frank Pittman says that the old excuse "my spouse doesn't understand me" is just cr** - the WS goes out of his or her way to make sure that communication does not happen.

Thank you for the responses, I appreciate your time and thoughts.

lost-without-her -
Thank you for your thoughts. Like your W, my H has a pattern of "blowing me off" as well. He did have a short A back in spring 2002, and our difficult communication pattern was one of his justifications. We had MC for a month or so, focusing on me rather than him or us, then when things started to turn towards him, H pulled out and refuses to return. As for HNHN, I have read the book but H will not. EN questionaires went uncompleted. I have tried to apply MB principles when I can.

Cliff -
Yes - I also feel H is disrespectful of our time together. (Or lack of, I should say - we get far less than the MB suggested 15hrs weekly) H also does a great job of interpreting or manipulating conversations to the point of which I just stop trying because my words are twisted around so much I don't recognize them anymore.

ark^^ -
I see what you are saying about the bowling night and the extra one time a month not being very substantial in the overall scheme of time, and I agree it sounds pretty harmless if the assumption is that we have other time together. We don't.

Typical schedule during the week is that H is up and gone for work at 6am, home at 3pm. (Friend stops by 2-3x a week at this time for beer/visit) I get home at 5:30pm, we have dinner as quickly as possible,(with H reading the paper and watching the news) done by 6:15 or so. Then H retreats to garage or downstairs to sit in lazy-boy, falling asleep by 7pm. I go to bed about 10pm, sometimes he's there, most times he's not and comes to bed whenever he wakes up and realizes he is still in the recliner.

Weekends are such that Friday night is his "reward" for working hard all week. OK - fair enough. Saturdays are our free day, but are usually scheduled with his projects and chores. He says that he is open to doing things with me (and son) but when approached he will backtrack and nit-pick the purpose of the outing until it just doesn't sound fun anymore. Basically he is sending the message that in order for him to do anything with me/us, it must be absolutely fascinating or be something of HIS choosing. I was so starved for attention after d-day that I even started going to Home Depot with him just to get some time with him.

Sundays are "laundry day" - he took over laundry duty years ago when he wasn't satisfied with the way I folded the clothes, and now it has turned into another day he spends in the garage. Even my family knows not to invite him over on Sundays, as he has raised such a fuss about it in the past.

So although this one incident may seem like I am trying to punish him, it is not so if you take into account the entire picture. Basically I see it as he has set up our lives around the schedule that HE prefers. He expects that son & I should "fit" into whatever time he has remaining.

I feel I have been supportive - it was my idea that he have Friday nights to himself for the last 10 years - what other wives do that? And if he was bowling with the guys as you do with the gals, maybe he wouldn't have been in the bar where he bumped into his OW and started the A? I'm really ok with the poker party - I know the friend well. I just disagree with time away at the expense of family time - consistently.

Being supportive was rewarded with an A, although I still try to believe that it was a fluke rather than a character flaw. But it still stings when I attempt to be supportive and what I see as fair,and I still get crap thrown back at me.

Melody Lane -
Yes, I hoped that he would agree with me when I tried to POJA the additional time away issue. Of course I wanted it to go my way, but I was willing to negotiate with him - and he was not even willing to do that. So then what? How can you POJA respectfully with someone who stonewalls you by not responding?

As far as neglecting the M - BINGO!!

It isn't even on his radar screen at this point.
He has his schedule set up to his liking and sees whatever un-filled time as his to do as he pleases. Any chores he does are all of his own deciding - I never give him a "Honey-Do" list. The few things I have asked for either take weeks to be acknowledged or never do get completed.

Nellie 1 -
Yes, I whole-heartedly agree. After being together over 16 years now, it is very clear that H manipulates situations to prevent communication from happening. That then prevents him from accepting any responsibility for change. He's a tough nut to crack and I am at the end of my rope. So much time is being wasted on deflecting and projecting and denial that I feel time is rapidly passing us by without the enjoyment we could be getting from our lives. It's sad.

I am feeling lonely and like I don't matter in this marriage. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

H will not discuss emotional issues.
When we argued about this issue when he came home on Friday, he told me that I was "psychotic" and "insecure". Was that really necessary? I think not. It was just another way to deflect the problem off of him and to project it on to me.

When he got home from the poker party last night, he started in on me again about old issues having nothing to do with this one - and now I am spending my Sunday cleaning out the garage because he says my stuff is "in his way". (I have one corner - maybe 10 feet of space) I am taking all of it to be donated - not because I want to, but just to shut him up about it.

I keep feeling that if I just get done with everything on his list for ME to do, that then he will start addressing some of MY needs. Doubtful, I know... but if I lose that hope I will really be lost. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


Thanks for posting,
Shelle

^^ BUMP ^^ 1ST post did not work.

"I am feeling lonely and like I don't matter in this marriage." <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

"H will not discuss emotional issues."

Perhaps H CANNOT discuss emotional issues like a woman .... because he ain't nothing but a man!

I will start a new post later today about communicating feelings and needs in a way that will get your H's attention.

It's from the current book I am reading.

I think I'll title the thread "Dear Daddy"...

My H and I are going for a walk now. So later look for Dear Daddy.

Congratulations on all your progress made so far! Don't deny your successes.

pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps H CANNOT discuss emotional issues like a woman .... because he ain't nothing but a man!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, I do realize this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The whole "Mars" & "Venus" thing seems to be in play here.

It's not so much that I want to have deep emotional discussions with H, I just really would like him to at least respect me enough to respond to me - even if it is to say he disagrees or that he would like to think about it and discuss it later.


Thanks for the thoughts -
I'll check out your new thread.

Shelle