Dear Senior MBers,

I need some help in clarifying a few doubts I have in my mind and unable to answer to my BS' doubts on these accounts.

I am the WS in our 29 Years of M. The DDay was over 3 Years Back. I had engaged in EMRs many years back with two OWs while being out of station on business.

I can hardly call our current state a "Recovery", as my BS, is still on an Emotional Roller Coaster ride.

The questions I have are as follows:-

1. Can a WS continue to still have deep feelings of love and affection for the BS after the EMRs?
2. Does the EMRs represent complete loss of feelings and love for BS?
3. Does having EMRs represent completely nullifying the exsistance of Spouse by the WS?
4. Does having SF during this period of instability cum uncertainity detrimental to possible recovery?
5. How long does the Emotional Roller Coaster Ride normally last? ( I know it can vary from individual to individual).

Any and all inputs would be highly appreciated.

OK...I'll bite...

lets get the basics first...
I read some of your past posts...some dating back to October...in which you ask the same questions...so that means you two are pretty much stuck in a cycle...and SOMEONE has to break the cycle ...

As SQUEEZE sings in one of their songs...
"you've got to throw a stone to get the pool to ripple...."

So correct me where I am wrong...

TWO one night stands....
were they just one nighters or were they emotionaly involved affairs

AND
these were quite a few years ago...11 and 22??
AND you voluntarily disclosed these affairs...

AND your wife and you are no closer to any type of resolution or rebuilding...

Soooo questions would include what tangible actions have you done to assist your wife in feeling safe...
in making yourself accountable...

do you two get along at all or is there constant tension?

do you know her top needs
does she know your top needs..(not what you believe are her needs...)


Can a WS continue to still have deep feelings of love and affection for the BS after the EMRs
and what kind of question is that.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
what is A WS

Are you asking if YOU can continue to have deep feelings of love and affection...

why couldn't you
why wouldn't you
why do you
why don't you......

Do you believe your own affairs was an entity that existed outside of your choices and actions..or do you see clearly the role and energy needed to accomplish them??

do you \
have you
can you
applied that same energy towards your wife...


Does the EMRs represent complete loss of feelings and love for BS?

I don't know..
did you feel complete loss of feelings and love for your wife??
do you feel complete loss of feelings and love for your wife...

Does having EMRs represent completely nullifying the exsistance of Spouse by the WS?

well physically she still exists if you can see her... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
does she feel nullified..perhaps...what do you do to make her feel validated...?

Does having SF during this period of instability cum uncertainity detrimental to possible recovery?

how does rebuilding emotional bonding, intimacy and SF become detrimental if that's what you are doing...

How long does the Emotional Roller Coaster Ride normally last? ( I know it can vary from individual to individual).

probably as long as you two let it last...again these are not entities outside of your universe that just happen....while there are triggers and things...there is also the use of energy to keep it an emotional ride...the known often appears less frightening than the unknown...but that doesn't make it so...

Lots of things to talk about...

the safe environment that the BS needs to work on creating for the WS to feel safe enough to disclose painful information...and if the BS wants recovery...then it does become their onus of responsibilityl...

Are you in counseling if not why the heck not...

Are you two even friends right now...

enquiring minds want to know...


ark

OK, I'll bite, too.

Seems to me that with serial EMR's - if you want your wife to love and trust you, the word here is ACCOUNTABILITY.

You broke her trust - you broke your commitment to her- so you are the one who has to restore her trust in you by being willing to be accountable to her for yourself at all times - you forfeited your right to privacy by betraying her.

Loving feelings come when you trust and respect someone. Of course you can still love your wife, but if you want HER to truly love you whole-heartedly again, you have to be the one to prove yourself. You have to start at step one, and that is accountability.

Accountability is the first step towards rebuilding respect. Respect and trust come before loving feelings.

Good luck.

LIR

well well well????

ark

ark^^ and L_I_R,

Thank you both for responding to my Thread. I could not respond to your various queries due to my own pre-occupation last week and apologise for the same. The reason I visit MB site as this provides invaluable inputs for people who had the misfortune of Affairs ( EA & PA) etc. which helps both the spouses (Betrayed or Wondering).

If you will notice, I had mentioned in the very beginning that these are doubts which are sitting heavy in my Wife's mind. I have not been able to clarify these suitably to her, hence sought opinion and/or help from more experienced MBers and from people who have been able to overcome such situation.

arc^^! you are very correct, I did start a thread with similar questions, but I do not think the responses did provide me with adequate resource materials. I am here under responding some of the queries expressed from your sides:-

arc^^:
Yes I fully agree that some one has to break the cycle. But who and how? What Can I do to try and regain my BS' confidence, specially after my such serious misdemeanours?

My EMRs, were Two and these were to be more specific not One Nighters, but Two Nighters with same OW at two different cities. There was no emotional attachment, as far as I am concerned these were purely physical and I have had no contacts with these OW ever after. Yes, these were a number of years back, 1981 & 1989. I made the voluntary disclosure in compelling circumstances, where I was charged for misdemeanours which I did not indulge in.

My Wife is not at all hostile to me. She too would like to find a resolution to the present state of our relationship. If you ask me, my Wife is having a lot of conflicting feelings in her mind and these were expressed in my initial post.

Mind you, she still loves me and cares for me in all possible manner. Also from my side, I too have tried my best to express my most sincere regrets for hurting her with the EMRs and repentences. She says, she is unable to accept my statements nor can believe what I say nor put these events past her mind.

I have taken full responsibilities for these EMRS. I told her these were probably due to my own internal weaknesses for which I am prepared to face any and all sorts of consequences.

One of her demand is that I should somehow trace back one of the OW who was involved and she would like to have a face to face chat with her and evaluate as to why I indulged in EMRs with her.

Only problem, in attaining this is I have absolutely no clue about her whereabouts. The person, who sort of introduced her to me in an restaurant also expressed his inability to help me out in writing. My Wife has the feeling that I am aware of her whereabouts and trying to protect her, which is not true. Though, I do not believe this approach would result in any solution, even if OW is traced somehow, I have been asking this person to help out without success. My Wife's feeling is I have not exerted enough. This person, by the way does no know what happened after he left us. I once tried to bareall and let him know, my Wife then felt it was very demeaning for my self-esteem and standing and asked me not to send the letter which I had prepared and given her to check and amned as she would like to.

As I mentioned earlier, my Wife gets the triggers mostly in the mornings. As the day progresses it mellows down. Everytime, she wakes up from her sleep or restful state, it overwhelmes her.

As far as I know she did not go through the exercise of finding out her "TOP NEEDS". From what she has told me her Top Need of the Hour is to produce the OW, so that she can meet her and promises to be civil(I wish I only knew where she is?).

By nature, my Wife is very kind and sensitive. She goes out of the way to help people out. But if something does not meet her approval, it rests in her mind for long span of time.

No I am not asking if I could have deep feelings for her? I only expressed her apprehensions in my questions. It is my firm conviction that I do have very deep feelings for her and I care for her. I have told her I am willing to lay down my life in order to prove this - no dramatics BTW. I have still not been able to convince my BS about it. She agrees that I am repentent, she knows that I feel for her pain. But she continues to stress I crossed the boundary and as such she will have the pain as long as she lives.

As I have stated earlier, in my post, I take full responsibility of my Affairs. No one else can be attributed with the cause besides me. IMHO, these were purely physical happenings. The energy, I am prepared to invest in regaining my BS's confidence can no way be compared to the efforts or energy I spent on these EMRS.

No I have not lost any feeelings of TLC for my BS. But she refuses to believe that I could have such things in me, as I have indulged in EMRS with other Women. I can not provide her any plausible clarification on this account. Hence, my question was raised.

She knows from my side, her existance is not nullified. But she questions, that if I did not nullify her exsistance in my mind, how could I have intimate physical relationships with OW. In a number of articles, I have read that Men normally does not need Emotional attachments for having sexual acts, but it does not work the sameway for Women.

Noted about your comments about Emotional Roller Coaster Rides. There is no doubt what you say is 100% right ( As long as we would let it last). I have very safe environment and this led my disclosures, primarily due to my association with the Scriptures for the past few years. I pray to the Lord to provide some kind of solace to my wife's agony she is undergoing due to my misdemeanours.

We are friends. My Wife wanted this to be kept only between us and only another Uncle of her knows about this, besides our two grown up children. At time things become ugly. I have learnt to expect such things as I am responsible for these. To the best of my knowledge, I have not reacted adversely to such triggers. Yes, these drain me out too. I try and help her at such times as best as possible.

Yes, we have had SF during these period. Actually, I read somewhere, that SF during the period of instability could be counter-productive, hence this question was raised.

We have not resorted to Counselling as such facility is not available in the city/country, we live. However, we have had some Counselling from Spritual Guides, I am unable to assess effects of which on my Wife.


L_I_R:
I fully concur with you that ACCOUNTABILITY Factor fully rests on me. I broke her trust and I have to work to gain this back.

But, in order to gain any thing back, there has to be complimentary responses from other side. Due to the hurt and pain, it is becoming hard for my Wife to develop such feelings towards me.

I have forfeited all rights of "Privacy" since my disclosures of EMRs. She has got all my email addresses and on daily basis checks out all mails.

Please give me a Road Map, of how one can single handedly rebuild or try to rebuild or regain trust. Specially, when my Wife is such pain and agony over my EMRs and these are not leaving her mind to rest in peace or develop any complimentary feelings of trust or believe my current actions.

I once again thank you both for your words of help. That is what this site is all about. Thank you MB and MBers, for your helpful attitude.

Regards.

sorry ash I have to confess it was not clear to me in your first post that the questions listed were questions held on to by your wife...

My EMRs, were Two and these were to be more specific not One Nighters, but Two Nighters with same OW at two different cities.

ash I don't think I understand that sentence either...the same OW part...
but I am not sure it's really important...

basically the gist I get is that your wife is CHOOSING...and yes I definitely mean CHOOSING not to reconcile this with you...

Well she certainly has the right to say to you that I can not get over what has happened in the past....

this other stuff...is not quite so right....but since you can't change her ...it will come back to you then deciding what you will and will not tolerate...

1. you can't change what happened in the past...if you could you would..

2. the whole point of recovery is someone seeing behaviors and actions that they made during the affair...and taking steps NOT to repeat those behaviors and actions....
those that are in recovery speak of the spouse they are with now...barely resembling that same spouse that has betrayed them...as if it was in some other life time...

She says, she is unable to accept my statements nor can believe what I say nor put these events past her mind.

well that is her choice and right..but she can not do that and claim to be in or desire recovery...

marriage and trust is nothing else but a huge leap of faith...there are no garuntees in any of it....

you can not make her believe you...you can't make her do anything...she alone has to decide to believe you....

doh!! I gotta stop here..I have to get ready for church...

take care ash..
i will be back when I can
ark

anyways...ASH


.here is a post brought over by CSUE...written by 2Oak..which I think really applies....to your situation....
All,

When I read this response from 20ak on the recovery board, I couldn't resist copying it to here.
Real simple - Keep it up and your marriage is over sooner or later.

If you have been LB'ing in the face of serious and concerted efforts to make things right then the next affair or divorce is out there waiting.

Let me explain that a little - I am way harder on FWS's than most I've seen around here lately. Frankly I am a little nauseated with the seeming acceptance some have for excuses of why an affair was OK. It is NOT ok under any circumstances and it CANNOT be blamed on the BS - Period. Affairs are wrong, hurtful, selfish and plain inexcusable.

WS's who refuse to stop and continue to make excuses do not need to be treated with patience and kindness and understanding - they need a good kick in the [censored] and the realization that their spouse has had it and there is no wiggle room, no negotiating and no compromise with regard to fidelity - they lose the OP right the hell now or they are out.

So all that to disspell any rumor that I am sympathetic to my WS brethren before i say the next part.

BS's are every bit as much responsible for recovery as WS's are. The BS's who wind up failing in recovery (assuming a WS willing to break contact and walk over coals to atone) more often than not make two mistakes:

"Honey, I think it is your turn to do the dishes" "WHAT! You shoulda thought of that when you were $*$&#* that #$%* you were running around with!!!!"
Not real conducive to cooperation. First part is that the marriage and the affair are seperate issues that you need to TRY to split. The affair is something the WS has to atone for and they damned well should work to do so. The other part is your marriage. There is a finite number of times that someone is going to reach out and try to make things better only to get their hand bit before they quit. If the OP is still chasing them and they are getting their [censored] kicked around the house you may as well drive them over to the OP.

Why do affairs really happen? It takes different forms and it's about different emotional needs in each case but it boils down to acceptance and affirmation and feeling cared for and appreciated. If your husband feels horrible about what he did and you rub his nose in it enough times he's gonna give up. When he gives up the affair will still be his fault but the failed recovery is going to be yours.

The second thing BS's do to sabotage their OWN recovery as well as the marriage's?
Looking for fair.

Real simple - the only Fair in an affair comes right after 'af'.
There is nothing you can ever do to make it fair. You have been wronged, badly, cruelly and horribly.
...now what?
Your WS can't make up for it. They should try and if you want your marriage to recover you should think of ways for them to pay the debt - even if it is silly stuff. In our case I was willing to do anything. We came up with a symbolic payment plan - it wasn't actually repayment of the debt (impossible) but it was a way for her to hold her head up and it was a way for me to demonstrate real remorse. She had a list - at 100 points I was allowed to ask forgiveness. It became a bit of a game and we laughed and it helped (symbolic, doesn't change the facts). Things like painting a room - 1 point. Letting her reach under the blankets and warm her hands on my belly after scraping ice from her widshield - 1/4 point. That helped, but it never 'paid' the debt. it did prove to her that I was damned sorry and that's big.

Get over the getting even part - revenge, payback etcetera is a path to an angry divorce.

Here's a though a lot of BS's will object to and say 'well that is easy for a WS to say".

You have a choice.

One of the toughest things for any BS is the feeling that they never chose recovery, this was all thrust upon them. Not true.
The affair was thrust upon them, damn the WS for that!

Recovery? That is a choice. Even the Bible says (paraphrasing) that if your spouse screws around you can dump'm and be blameless.
A BS choses recovery or they do not - if they do then they are 50% responsible for the success or failure. Now some will say it isn't that simple and it isn't fair - I have kids, we have a house, etcetera.

yeah? So?

It is still a choice. Grasping that will go a LOOONG way toward your recovery. You DO NOT have to take him back, you have the power to CHOOSE that. Stop and think about why this helps a BS. The feeling of powerlessness and unfairness and embarassment is a huge hurdle. if you can say "Y'know, i don't have to take him/her back - but I really do love them and want to give us a shot at a great future".

Well, that means that you are no longer powerless - you CHOSE to give a second chance, how you act on that decision is your responsibility. If you intend to punish them for life to get even you deserve to be as miserable as you make them.

After talking to a LOT of folks who made it through this there are a couple great truths.

Recovery is a misnomer. It implies returning to where you were. Where you were was one day from an affair starting - there were huge problems present. Rebuilding is a better term. Building a relationship anew. We still have issues and I don't have all the answers by a loooong shot but here are the critical differences:
1. No swallowing anger/resentment - talk it out! Unmet EN's result in frustration and resentment and a feeling that you have been wrongfully denied that which you are entitled to. THAT makes an affair easy.

2. No secrets. Every aspect of my finances, communication and time is transparent and visible to her and her to me - think it over - what secrets or privacy should you have with a spouse? If you have a stroke you are going to expect them to wipe your butt and water you - privacy is not needed and invites misunderstanding.

3. Simple really - a general agreement that we WANT to be happy and a willingness to realize that goal together.

In the end there are 1000 theories and all sorts of psycho-babble about the various aspects of infidelity that can be distilled down to a few sentences.
Affairs are wrong, they cause a LOT of pain and misery for all involved.
Recovery is impossible without a WS willing to do whatever it takes to put right what they have broken without pride, without privacy and without contact with the OP.
Recovery is not about getting even and the affair is never gotten over - it is set aside if you reach a point where you can say that it was the impetus for real, meaningful change.

...and the bottom line - a good relationship requires that you are open and honest and willing to work at it side by side. No agreeing when you don't agree, no giving in and then resenting, no withdrawing and seeking satisfaction outside the marriage and most of all no keeping score. We all look for a way to solve the affair - never happens. if you solve the issues that led up to it and build a happy, REAL and secure love together then it becomes an unpleasant memory.

it's long...

your wife alone needs to decide if she is going to be the victim of your affair which was years ago...and if she is choosing that role in the face of you making changes and being accountable...

that either she chooses recovery and moves that way...or pretends to choose recovery but not act thusly...

ark

arc^^,

Thank you for the trouble you took in quoting the relevant feed back from thread exchanged under different heading. I went through this. It makes a lot of sense.

There is one thing I would like to firmly reiterate, these are my firm convictions:-

1. I am the person who brought about this situation in our marital life.
2. My Wife has every right every reason to be upset, angry, disappointed, remorse etc. etc.
3. It is her choice, like engaging in EMRs were my choices.
4. I have to fully honor her decision and wishes.
5. She feels helpless in the present circumstance, more so as she chooses to keep it with herself.

I hope she overcomes her pain, anguish, sorrow and remorse etc.sometime soon. I feel very bad in causing all these pain in her. All I want is her happiness, how so ever she can achieve this. Afterall, I have caused her this injury.

Thank you for your inputs. God Bless you.

1. I am the person who brought about this situation in our marital life.

You are correct about that...there is nothing you can do to change that...
if you have made all the rational and reasonable changes in your life that changed the behaviors and actions that made your affair possible..then one does reach a point that there is nothing left for you to do...and the BS has to either accept that fact...or they will become just as destructive to the marriage as the person who had the affair....

One of her demand is that I should somehow trace back one of the OW who was involved and she would like to have a face to face chat with her and evaluate as to why I indulged in EMRs with her.

that is an exercise in futility..do you not agree?
Your wife's belief that somehow speaking to an OW from five years ago would somehow be more honest than you...speaks volumes about her trust issues with you....

The OW owes her nothing....and yet you stand in front of her offering her what she should need to feel safe...(if you are being accountable)...
so she is latched on and grabbing onto contacting old ex-OW...and hinges recovery on this actions that is most likely not going to happen...

people who want recovery may have a wish list a mile long of things they would like to happen...but there always those things that are more realistic...and those that truly desire recovery are smart enough to let go of what is not going to happen and change their focus on what is positive in front of them....

My Wife has every right every reason to be upset, angry, disappointed, remorse etc. etc.

yes she does...but she can not wear these things like a cloak that define her...and say that she is in recovery...
at some point people in recovery realize that these feelings do not serve them well ..nor the marriage...and they let them go....

sometimes we hold on to many many feelings for the only reason that they are 'known" to us...and that letting go of being angry, disappointed, would mean that we have to fee other things...

AND
one can wield a lot of power over there spouse by always being these negative things...or bringing them out when it serves them to obtain what they want...people who want recovery realize their own responsibility in not feeding into these emotions...

I have to fully honor her decision and wishes.
well I hope you don't honor her irrational ones or the ones that feed into her continued victimization status...for that will not serve to create a healthy equal partnership which is the bigger goal and picture...

All I want is her happiness, how so ever she can achieve this. Afterall,

you can't make her happy...that's her choice...

look ASH you have been in this state for a long time...
and it isn't working for you..
you two are no close to rebuilding a new partnership marriage...you are stuck...

and you can't go belly up and take all of this on your shoulders because you had the affair..

recovery takes two...
and your wife needs to decide to plug in to recovery and actively work past these issues...
yes she has feelings...but she alone either gives them power over her...OR she moves past the feelings...

ark

ash

A couple of thoughts.

The affairs are multiple which always makes it harder.

They were over an extended period of time....eight years apart.

She never suspected apparently until something recently forced the issue.

Because they are so old she has no way of recalling what was going on in the marriage at the time the affairs were happening. And since she has no sense of the marriage struggling or you being distant or something not being quite right she feels extra vunerable.

That is probably why she wants to talk to the OW to get a feel for what you told her was the state of your marriage at the time.

There have only been a few BSs that found out years later about an affair that I have seen post here. And for some odd reason they seem to struggle even more than many BS that uncovered a current affair.

Perhaps part of it is older affairs discovered are missing many of the pieces that are still
there in a newly discovered current affair. She
may recall certain things like you having a tremendous amount of stress at your job during that time or the fact you too were had been drifting apart. But discovered real time you not only recall it you "feel" because you were actually "living" it just recently. So its easier to understand the job stress or the drifting apart or whatever reasons given when you can still sense those feelings.

Also I think for some BS there is the added deception all these years. The willingness to live with a terrible secret to live a double life so to speak.

So while your affair in 1981 might have lasted a few months and the one in 1989 just a few months in your spouse's mind you have been keeping a secret from her for 23 years-going back to the first affair.

So she sees not just the affairs but the 20 plus years of hiding this from her.