Hey MBers. Once again you are the only folks who might be able to shed some light on this.

As some of you know OWs last day working for H will be 2 weeks on Friday. Last week was rough. This week H seems more easy going and less irritable. Over the past few days I am aware of this anger in me. Yesterday it hit me again what H did and I just felt sick inside. I got the book "Not Just Friends" and the author calls what the BS goes through as "traumatic." She said the recovery therapy she uses is similar to what people get after they've been traumatized by some disaster.

Yesterday morning I had this dream that my H was on top of me. It wasn't sexual. He was totally covering my body and I couldn't move or breathe. I was literally suffocating. H had no awareness that I was even under him. I was trying to move my hand so maybe I could grab him and let him know I was under him. I woke up from this dream in a panic and I think gasping for breath.

I know what this means. It has to do with how he treated me during the A, and how I'm feeling now. I feel like I'm suffocating. When the A was first revealed he seemed invested in trying to heal our marriage. He fired her and chose to stay with me. Yet he will not initiate any conversation of depth, especially about the A. When I have tried to get info about the A he won't give it to me. I have no idea what he is thinking or feeling, and I don't think he wants to know those things about me. My impression is that he wants this whole thing to go away. Maybe he doesn't. I always tell my clients it's impossible to read minds.

I am doing all the reading about As, he now is doing no reading. The only reason I'm reading this stuff is because of him. We are going to MC in 45 minutes so I will bring this up in there.

I guess I'm asking you folks if our two reactions are normal at the point we are at. I want to deal with this, and he seems to want to avoid it. In the meantime I'm not feeling very positive. My sexual feelings towards him seem to be gone at this point also. I know that is because two of my top needs are conversation and openess and honesty. When is it reasonable to have him really start kicking in here? My ENs are not getting met. At least not my top 5. As always, thanks!

Don't know your whole story , but most sounds normal . My FWS did not want to talk about it either he 2 wanted it to go away in the past FORGET about it .

I tried not to bring it up offten and then I found that if I asked a question JUST ONE and really listened to him and didn't fire back with more ,,, little by little he was opening up about it at his own pace .

IT is a great thing that he is going to MC that should help alot .

Good LUCK

CV55, this is all a very normal part of recovery. He is in withdrawal and, because of that, is emotionally DETACHED from you. He has no interest in working on your marriage right now and pushing him in this is a lovebuster. I would just ride it out and let him get it out of his system.

As long as you don't push him away, he will draw more and more to you as he gets through withdrawal. It is still too painful for him to talk about. He probably also does not feel safe in opening up to you.

HOWEVER, once he gets through withdrawal, he is going to have to answer your questions in order for you to recover. If not, trust cannot be restored if he retains secrets with the OW that you are not privy to. They can't have any secrets anymore if your marriage is to recover. He has to understand this.

Secondly, affairs and divorces are as painful and traumatic as the death of a child so I am not surprised you are having nightmares. It sounds like you feel you being crushed by the weight of his betrayal.

CV, I know it doesn't seem like it now, but things will get better as time goes on. I don't mean to sound trite, but it really does take time. I suspect that once he gets through withdrawal, things will start changing and he will start turning to you.

CV55,

I agree with what 3isacrowd and MelodyLane said. What you are going through sounds very normal. We went through it too. My H didn't want to talk about any of it. He just wanted to forget it, it was in the past, what's the point...

Your H *might* have a harder time for a little bit when the OW actually leaves the workplace. Sometimes when a WP agrees to NC and even wants NC, things go okay for a while and then when the permanence of NC hits them, it gets harder for a little while.

Keep up a good Plan A and wait. The withdrawal can take six weeks or six months, so don't push and rush (HARD to do, I know!). Eventually you *will* need to have your questions answered and begin working on a stronger M. Right now, though, your job is to plan A while he gets through withdrawal.

It sucks, doesn't it? But isn't it also so reassuring to know you're not in wacko-land by yourself? I can't imagine what people went through in the days before the internet and MarriageBuilders.

CV55

Some things that happened to me that appear to be typical about the WS

* Peculiar and wavering state of mind. Attribute this to their own desire to continue the A, in spite of knowing its wrong, and, also the realization that huge amounts of damage have been done and they have NO IDEA how to deal with it.

* Deep, DEEP down inside their hearts, they are experiencing two diametricly (SP?) opposed feelings of grief. One for the marriage they damaged, the other for the OP. Again, they don't know how to process both feelings at the same time.

* Emotional detachment. Knowing the pain they have caused, they are much more likely to hide from the pain, rather than face it straight up. This allows them to keep the fantasy alive.

* Argumentative and combative. WS's can be an endless fountain of LB's and disrespectful remarks designed solely to make the BS angry and respond with a vengence. This allows them to stay emotionally detached, and shift the BLAME for the affair having taken place to the BS.

* Sullen, quiet, withdrawn. All this a result of a combination of the above items. Look how much of an emotional drain it is to be the BS. The WS has an equal amount of emotional drama to deal with, it's just way different than what we, as the BS are going through.

* Complaints of being smothered. Of course. BS's are in Plan A, doing all the right things, and at the same time seeking answers, remorse, groveling (LOL), revenge, love, EN's, and some sense of the WS explaining the affair and returning to the marriage. And this is what the BS's expect in the first HOUR after DDay. Way too many emotions are in play, and both parties have needs that cannot be properly met by the other for several weeks, until the fervor of emotions wains, and people are thinking with clear minds. All of these things take time, and effort. Words to a foggy WS are like throwing cotton balls at a crocodile.

* WS's are all about them. It's me, me, me for the longest time. It's still all about the selfish mode they assumed to allow the A to happen and continue. Plan A, sort of keeps that in place. That's where care and caution need to come into play, so that as the fog lifts for a moment, a BS may have to employ "tough love", without LB's and DJ's. Timing and delivery are everything during this stage.

* Continued contact. Most of the posts I've seen here refer to more than one promise of NC before it truly takes place. Setbacks are common. My WW had 4 breeches before I believed this last "promise" might be the real deal.

* Lack of interest in learning how to recover. They are in such a state of denial, among other things, that they "don't need to recover". I finally "coerced" WW to read SAA aloud with me, but it was just a courtesy to me that she did it. It meant nothing to her, because at the time, she was still living the fantasy.

All these things seem to be pretty typical. I'm sure other posters can add more. Time, time, time, is the final answer, but the time spent needs to be filled with carefully executed Plan A, or Plan B, depending on the circumstances. Mix in some boundry setting, so the WS has some consequences for errors in His/Her ways, and hang on for the ride. Make the times that you have together pleasant for both of you, and choose NOT to talk about the A, recovery, OP, most of the time. Those talks should be semi-occasional, and not drawn out to become confrontational.

Stay strong and energized. You can survive this.

SD

If you can identify the ENs that the OW was filling, you can begin trying to fill these yourself - to the extent he will let you. H's OW was filling a need for admiration, and he was beginning to let her fill he need for affection. As soon as I recognized these, I immediately put MY needs on the back burner for a while and began filling his! It really seemed to help the fog lift and the withdrawal pains to lessen at a quick rate!! Just a suggestion...

Also, I put NO demands or stipulations on him except that I wanted us to pray together every morning before he left for work. (They still work together). I did let him know that some ground rules would need to be established, but I let him come up with the rules and then I gave my feedback on each. So he didn't feel like he was having to serve a sentence imposed by me - instead he was choosing to live by a set of rules that HE developed to try to protect our marriage.

Affairs are traumatic and painful and the INITIAL shock shares many symptoms of the pain and grief of other tragedies but whenever I see someone say it is as bad as the death of your child I feel the need to pause and say BULLSH!T

There is a big difference between the trauma of discovering and affair and a death or divorce - the latter two are permanent. Appreciate that it is difficult and express that, getting anti-depressants and counseling is wise but keep some perspective.

This is something fixable. This is something that has already passed the low point and will get better - how quickly depends largely on you.

I understand H's not wanting to talk about it, i understand his shame and embarassment and having been there I'm not one bit sympathetic. He's a big boy, he made a big mistake and he has some big consequences to deal with.

You need to make him deal with this - if your anger and resentment makes you into a grumpy, cold wife who is emotionally and sexually off limits start the countdown to his next affair or your divorce right now.

The work that needs doing is joint - he has to understand that dealing with this for you is going to require that he comes clean. I'd caution you not to ask every detail - no sense putting those pictures in your head but DO ask the things you need to know.

What was wrong?
How can you say you loved me all along? ( a toughie - in time you'll see the affair was all about his selfishly acting out on his frustrations - didn't change the fact that he loved you - who'd he chose after d-day?)

These require conversation and the answers will not be answers - they'll be information. Curiosity right now is BAD, knowing sucks but you have to know what you are forgiving before you can do it.

Sit him down when you are calm - let him know the worst has come and gone but in order to heal he has to let you talk about it and you need to reconnect. Let him know that forgiving will be possible but he has to open up, drop his pride and deal with you.

The BIGGEST mistake either of you can make is to pretend it never happened and sweep it under the rug - because you'll resent him, he'll be embarassed and you WILL grow apart. The truth hurts like hell one time, continued secrecy and lies hurts over and over and over.

Suggestion - when he talks keep your cool - tell him that you appreciate his honesty and need it to recover and resist the temptation to 'use' any new facts to beat him with.
Is that fair? no... this is not about fair it is about recovery so punishing him for opening up is only going to make him shut down.

Hang in there - but ya gotta talk this through and get all secrets out NOW.

Once again many thanks! I wish there was another way to express that. I know I've said this before, but really I don't know what I'd do without this site. I'm not even sure how I found it. I think it was a divine gift for me.

I didn't mention the first dream I had before the one where I was being killed by H. I won't get into the details, but there was a very supportive man in the dream. It was clear to me that that man represented all of you who have been supporting me the last several months. Hopefully you will keep me from being suffocated by H, or keep me from going to prison if I accidentally put a pillow over his head in the middle of the night.

Unfortunately I was about to go to this site when H asked me if he could use the computer 1st. He looked at me and said how sorry he is, and then I pretty much did everything that you all just told me I shouldn't do. OK, maybe I wasn't that bad. NOT!

We went to MC and I talked about my dreams and his avoidance. Therapist told him he has to answer my questions. What ended up coming out was that concerning committment he has one foot in and one foot out. He said he's not thinking of going back to OW. Who knows? But he is having major withdrawal symptoms. I talked to him after the session and he said he thinks about her all the time, wants to call her, and get together. I pushed for this honesty. Of course these were not pleasant words to my ears. Here I thought some of the withdrawal symptoms were diminishing. I stayed cool. We were in the car and I had my shades on, so he couldn't see the actual daggers I was shooting him.

Then we went out to lunch and I was questioning him more. I was definitely slamming oW, in a nice way. I reminded him that he said she showed no remorse. Then he told me how when he was breaking it off and he told her all the pain they had caused to me, him, and our family this was her response. In his office she fell to her knees, and maybe onto the entire floor, and sobbed because of the wrong she had done. Is my sarcasm coming through the computer keys. I wanted to puke! I said, "That's nice, but did she feel any remorse while you were having the A. Or was it just after you broke it off." So that was my LB #1, talking negatively about the sweet and vulnerable oW.

On the way home from lunch I actually felt something bordering on hate towards H. I definitely feel like at least in my thoughts I have one foot in and one out. I might not have an OM to run to, but I feel so disgusted by what we have to deal with now there are times like now I just don't know if I want to continue. And hearing him profess his continued love for OW is like swallowing syrup of Ipecac.

Before I read your posts this is what I said. Oh you all will want to blast me for this one. I told him why doesn't he just call OW if he thinks life with her will be so perfect. In therapy I talked about the fact that he ended this before the fantasy could turn into reality. That raelly bothers me. H won't have a chance to really see what it would be like to be in the real worls with this little twit.

What other Lb did I do? 3isacrowd, I tend to overwhelm. I want to know everthing and can do this rapid fire interrogation. I know hecan't handle that, and your advice is good.

ML, you said exactly what the therapist said about secrets. You give me hope that maybe we can get through this. That is if I don't sabotage the proces, or kill him first. Just kidding, I'm not violent!


Turtlehead, 3 weeks to 6 months? Seriously, I'm not sure I have the patience for that. I will be beyond wacko-land. You might as well lock me up

SD, as usual you nailed it all. My "timing and delivery" are leaving something to be desired right now. And as far as patience, I obviously am lacking that big time.

Jamup, my Hs top 2 needs are affection and admiration. Affection is my top need, but admiration isn't even on my radar screen. I told him today that I'm sure OW was meeting those needs big time. He admitted she was. Little "B".

2ofakind, I'm really having trouble with how could he have loved me and been such a creep. I told him, I'm sure another LB, how could he have done all this when my dad was dying. I can't wrap my mind around it. You're right, this isn't as bad as the death of a child. But as someone who has experienced many deaths, this is worse than those experiences. In therapy I said I felt like I had been raped emotionally, spiritually, and physically. The problem is it's by the person you love and trust to not hurt you.

Well, H is chomping at the bit waiting for me. Thanks all of you again. Please add more if you see fit. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Affairs are traumatic and painful and the INITIAL shock shares many symptoms of the pain and grief of other tragedies but whenever I see someone say it is as bad as the death of your child I feel the need to pause and say BULLSH!T
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not trying to change the subject, but I wanted to post a reply to this comment...

I've never made the above comment BUT...

Different people have had different life experiences leading up to the reason they sought out this site. I've never lost a child, but death has been a part of my life, my reality for ever. I'm prepared for my own death, and I routinely consider what situation the death of my spouse might leave me in. I too have considered my children's death - how those things might impact my life. (And no, I'm not looking forward to any of those events). However, NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER (did I say that enough) in my life did I EVER think I would be a betrayed wife. NEVER!! My H comes from a long line of moral people as do I. To my knowledge only one Uncle of mine has had an A, and no one in my H's family has had one. (Relatives probably have, but around here such as that is hush hush - newlyweds are not counseled on As, or on how to prevent As...)

So maybe that's where the shock to the system lies. Are A's part of your upbringing, part of your social group? They weren't part of mine. Is death part of your upbringing, part of your social group? Death is DEFINITELY part of mine. It is faced and talked about constantly. So even though the death of a child or loved one would certainly be HARD, I don't think it would SHOCK my system quite like my H's A did.

But then again, I could be wrong...

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: jamup ]</small>

Hi all.
I wonder how I found Marriage Builders also!
I 'think' I typed "Recovering from an affair" in the search and found this message board.
(I am so glad I did, it is a wonderful place to come to and LEARN and share our feelings and thoughts and struggles.)

'CV', this paragraph from '2ofaKind' stands out to me:
"You need to make him deal with this - if your anger and resentment makes you into a grumpy, cold wife who is emotionally and sexually off limits start the countdown to his next affair or your divorce right now"

In other words the LB's need to stop.
You can do it!
We all can change our behavior at will; just like if the phone rings during an argument, we can become sweet and kind, we have that ability!

And Jamup, I felt the same about my husband yet I think he also felt before he met this OW and became 'smitten' with her that he never ever ever ever would have been unfaithful. IMPOSSIBLE and yet he did!.......I think her taking such an interest in HIM just was too much for him to resist! I think it was his first time he was even tempted and he dove in and was head over heels!
Sincerely, Julie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2ofaKind:
<strong> Affairs are traumatic and painful and the INITIAL shock shares many symptoms of the pain and grief of other tragedies but whenever I see someone say it is as bad as the death of your child I feel the need to pause and say BULLSH!T

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but I would disagree. Ask someone who has been through BOTH, they will tell you the depth and breadth of trauma and despair is very similar. Until you have experienced both, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss someone else's experience!

I will try not to LB. I really think I was so much more compassionate at the beginning of this whole thing. As it drags on I'm wondering what I'm doing. I think someone on here said that every instinct in our beings want us to do the opposite of what Harley recommends. Hearing him talk about being in-love with OW is like the knife twisting. I've said this on here several times lately. That is I think I'm believing the crap now. I'm thinking like my H. Before I could look at this as textbook affair material. A big fantasy. When I point some of that out to H I can tell he doesn't buy it. It was real love between them. I think I really am wondering that myself. How do you all know if I build up his love bank he will fall in-love with me? Seriously, maybe his feelings for her are too strong. And yes, he chose me. But I don't think it was anything about me. It was our boys, not wanting to be exposed to family and the community, the financial implications, etc.

Oh, I have to share this. Maybe the men on here can give me some added advice or insight. H wants to get a Harley. Are we in a mid-life crisis here? Motorcycles used to scare him. I mentioned that and asked him what got him thinking about this. OMG, I can't believe he said this. I apologize because I am laughing right now. He said, "I like the way it feels to have something between my legs." This was said in total seriousness. He did have a horse and compares it to that. But I swear he didn't get the irony of that statement. I am continually amazed.

We actually went to a Harley shop today. This is the thing. I don't want to LB his dream. However, those babies are 15 to 20 thousand bucks. We have a son who will be a senior next year, and another starting HS. I think it could be fun, but this is my concern. I've said in here that Hs classical guitar became his OW. I'm totally serious about that. He would disengage from me and our kids and over play his guitar. Then it was OW. I am really hesitant for him to get a bike before we are on solid ground. I'm worried it will be one more thing he can escape to, and not deal with us. Do you think it's reasonable for me to say that?

Hopefully you all aren't done with my post yet. Would you please speak to getting over the in-love with OW, and being in-love again with me. Also, how do I build my in-love feelings if he's not even capable of meeting my ENs. Just wait it out? Thanks! CV

CV55

WH is totally incapable of even realizing he's completely neglected your needs ever since he became involved with OW. He is even less capable of meeting them. I know how we BS's need to feel SOMETHING, but truthfully, expect nothing. FOG!

My very best advice to you is to do the absolute textbook Plan A. NO LoveBusters. None. No disrespectful judgements. None. Fill his love bank like you never before thought possible. I know you'd rather wring his neck, but all NEGATIVES ARE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!!!

I just made it a game. I taught myself how to completely detach from every word that came out of my WW's mouth, and chalked them up to the alien that took over her body. It wasn't her speaking. So I paid no attention to LB's, DJ's, antagonizing remarks, and remarks made in defense of the affair (you know, I love you, but I'm not in love w/you...all that crap). It just wasn't her speaking to me.

I "killed her with kindness". I shook her up from time to time, other times made no difference to her at all. The BIG DIFFERENCE was that she COULD NOT GET ME TO ENGAGE IN ANGRY OR DISRESPECTFUL RETORTS. That confused her, and blew a bit of fog away every time it happened!

Otherwise, work on YOU. Find activities to blow off pent up energy, anger, frustration and other emotions you have to keep a lid on in his presence. It will work, but you have to fully commit to it!!!

You have all my support....keep praying, posting and Plan A'ing.

SD

CV55, yes he will fall in love with you if you meet his needs. As he gets through withdrawal the fantasy aspect of his affair will wear off and he will start seeing it in a different light. He will see HER in a truer light. Its not uncommon for the WS to develop a contempt for the OP once the fantasy aspect wears off. Things look different once the fog haS blown off.

Gosh, I know so many men who are riding motorcycles! My DH bought a Honda Goldwing and has a wonderful time on group rides. I have gone on some rides with him. This might be a great opportunity for you both to spend time together on rides.Men LOVE having a woman on the back of their bike! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Will you go on rides with him? Most riders belong to groups and the groups plan weekly rides and events. DH and I have a great time doing this! We have met the most wonderful people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, how do I build my in-love feelings if he's not even capable of meeting my ENs. Just wait it out? Thanks! CV </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. You will have to wait until he has something to give. Right now he has nothing to give. It will come, don't give up hope!

Thanks SD and ML! This is the toughest experience I have ever gone through. I'm not whining, just acknowledging it. Trying to stick with someone who has totally screwed you over. And then they come across as the BS, the victim. He actually said tonight that he had to give up these great people who were working for him. Of course one being OW, and the other his partnere. OW had to go because , gee, she was having an A with the married boss. And partner left because he felt like he was getting squeezed out of his job by OW and H. Who created these consequences.

H told me tonight he was planning on buying the harley this week. I asked him if we could talk about it. I could tell he had an attitude immediately. Isn't this where the POJA comes into play. I told him I thought we were just looking today. Well, he thought something else. I said that I wasn't against him buying the bike, but I'm worried he will use it to escape from us. Believe me, these fears of mine are legitimate. Well, he was DJing me all over the place. I ruin his dreams. He knew I'd act this way. "It's OK, I'll just work my butt off and play my guitar." I really was being calm and respectful. Just told him I'd like to work on us and get on solid ground before he gets a bike. I could tell and commented that I knew he doesn't believe me. He was telling me what I was thinking, and it was wrong. I looked at him and said, "Before you had this A you weren't looking at me this way."

ML, I actually think a bike could be fun. Maybe I also fear that it will just be more selfishness from him. And who knows, maybe I won't be on the back of that bike.

I will try and hang in there. It's difficult to meet someone's needs when they close off from you. I can guess that he won't be too affectionate in bed tonight. Hopefully I can hang tough! Thanks friends!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
[QB] Thanks SD and ML! This is the toughest experience I have ever gone through. I'm not whining, just acknowledging it. Trying to stick with someone who has totally screwed you over. And then they come across as the BS, the victim. He actually said tonight that he had to give up these great people who were working for him. Of course one being OW, and the other his partnere. OW had to go because , gee, she was having an A with the married boss. And partner left because he felt like he was getting squeezed out of his job by OW and H. Who created these consequences.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its amazing how fogged out they are, isn't it? Don't worry, reason and sanity should come back and he will be shocked at his comments. I guess I can relate to alot of the WS mentality because it so resembles the mentality of an ADDICT. I am a recovering alcoholic with 18 years of sobriety and I look at these comments and immediately recognize the delusional, nutty, self serving thinking! Fortunately, it usually wears off as the addiction wears off.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could tell he had an attitude immediately. Isn't this where the POJA comes into play. I told him I thought we were just looking today. Well, he thought something else. I said that I wasn't against him buying the bike, but I'm worried he will use it to escape from us. Believe me, these fears of mine are legitimate. Well, he was DJing me all over the place. I ruin his dreams. He knew I'd act this way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could this be a ploy to get him out of the house and with the OW? Why don't you try telling him you think its a WONDERFUL idea for him to get the motorcycle because you could go on rides together! See what his reaction is. Because it could be a positive venture if that is the case. If its not the case, then you have a problem. His reaction could be attributed to 2 things: a. he doesn't like being told what to do, which most men don't! OR b. he is planning no good with the bike and you are hassling him. Which do you think it is?

As far as POJA goes, he is not even close to that point. Heck, he just ended contact 2 days ago!

CV55

Tough spot. I rode when I was much younger, and it was the second thing on my list for things I liked to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I would be edgy about making a major purchase like that during these emotional times, just like you are.

Is there a way to work the purchase of a HD a reward for mutual efforts towards restoring your marriage. I'm not to clever, but it seems a game or contest could be made of it.

All passwords, e-mail access and 75 days of No Contact, weekly counseling sessions, I don't know. You are much more clever than I, so try to figure something that benefits BOTH of you, but delays the purchase until you both (POJA) feel safe with the decision.

Perhaps a used bike could be considered. Maybe some others have some suggestions.

Fight the good fight
SD

The drama just keeps continuing! When I went to bed, to my shock, he actually wanted to cuddle with me. Then at 4:30 am the phone rings. My H has nights where he is on call, but he wasn't on call last night. He went into the other room to answer the call and came back really agitated. Apparently, even though he wasn't the on call person, someone he knew decided to call him at home about a death in their family. H knew the death was imminent and didn't need to get this personal call. The other funeral director should have handled it.

Anyway, he was beside himself. He said, "This is the 1st night I actually wasn't awake at 4am, was actually sleeping, and I get this call." He used the "F" word frequently. He is usually very respectful of the families he serves, but he was really pissed off. He actually was semi-crying. I tried to calm him down, was very understanding of his circumstances, and rubbed stressed parts of him to further calm him. Asked him if he wanted to talk furthere, and he said no. I did this for 30 to 45 minutes. Finally I decided to just try to sleep. I could tell I wasn't really helping him, and worse, it wasn't me he wanted comforting him. Suddenly he starts talking again. His life is a living hell, it sucks, etc. So I said very calmly, "Do you want your life to be the way it was before with OW?" H: "I'm not going to answer that question. I can feel your judgement." Me: No, I'm serios. Is that what you want?" H: "Yes." Me: "So the only glitch in that arrangement was me and the kids, right?" H: "Yes." Then I didn't say anything. After about 10 minutes he began talking again about how his life Fing sucks. I got up and grabbed a pillow. H: "Where are you going?" Me: "I'm sorry your life Fing sucks! I'm going to sleep in the guest room."

After I left I talked to myself and God for at least a half hour. H asked me this morning if I was talking on the phone. Basically my conversation with me was, "His life sucks? This man has put me through hell since last June. He has had support from the lovely OW, and now me. Until 2 months ago I have been flying totally solo here. Haven't even outed him to any of my family. And his life sucks?" To God: "OK, what is the plan here? I prayed months ago that you take this marriage. I surrendered it to you. H is still here. But why? What is my lesson? Am I going to go through more torture to just have him leave me in the end?" More conversation with me: "Why do you want to be with someone who basically has rarely been able to support you emotionally through difficult times? Yet, you have stuck with him through the worst. Are you a total chump?"

This morning when I got up I said my usual recovery thought. "Another beautiful day on the road to recovery!" Went downstairs and gave the H a perky "Good morning!" He says, "Why did you sleep in the guest room?" Me: "Because I didn't want to hear you say anymore how your life Fing sucks." He actually kind of laughed.

I am soooooo miserable. At the end of the month it will be the anniversary of his dad's death. I actually wrote in my journal the day after his death how H was my best friend. How we made love and he told me he loved me. Within a couple of months he's developing an A. I look at him and think, "What an idiot! Our life is hell right now because of YOU!"

You all realize that to most of the world sticking with a ws is looked at as crazy, dysfunctional behavior. One of the people who is supporting me can't fathom how I am sticking in there.

ML, I don't think H wants to buy a HD so he can take OW out. However, I am very aware that maybe on some unconscious level he could be thinking that. I do think it is a way for him to escape the painful feelings he really doesn't want to deal with.

SD, I don't get where I am more clever than you. You have played this recovery game as a master. I did have an idea about the HD. I have asked H to please finish reading SAA. He only got half way through it. I'm going to suggest that if we can begin practicing the 4 rules, if it's even remotely possible at this stage, maybe we can discuss the HD in a few weeks. I know I will have to be on the back of that cycle a lot if H is going to get it. It can't be his individual activity alone. At least not now.

Sorry for these very long posts. I just feel so frustrated and hopeless. You all are so right. It is all about him now. He had about 2 weeks of amazing enlightenment after the A was revealed. He actually said in a very unfogged state, "I thought I was becoming enlightened during the A, but I realize I was totally lost." Where did that enlightenment go? Now he just wants to be with OW.

I feel like I need to get my life together, and I'm not sure how. I need to study and pass my licensure exam. It's so hard to study in the state I'm in. I would like more support, but I don't think at this point I can include more people in what's going on. H said yesterday he didn't think he could be around my family if they knew. He loves them, and they love him. I have totally isolated myself from them because of this. It's too hard for me to be around them knowing they don't have a clue.

Sorry again! Every time I think I'm done writing I start writing more. This really does suck! CV

Oh the poor baby card ,,,, my life sucks BLAH BLAH BLAH !!!!!!!!!!!


Yep my fws used that alot ,,, I know don't make ya feel any better.

Ok haven't read all the post I scaned through of course all here are telling you exactly that this whole thing (withdrawal is normal) they are right .

BUT that still don't make the sun come out for ya everyday LOL I know it still looks dark .

After making the decision of taking WS back there is ALWAYS dought if it all worth it . ALWAYS

The wondering thought of , if I would have just D then I would have been in pain greived my M and moved on . Who knows maybe meet someone and feel that NEW IN LOVE FEELING AGAIN .

Its not fair , but rember this is not totally YOUR H , there is the selfish side that comes out like you may have never saw before .

IJMVHO -I still say back down on the "we need to have a recovery plan " They do not know what the he!! you are talking about .

YOU need to not REACT ,,, YOU need to do things for you . And tes still PLAN A . BUT PLAN A only worked for me when I found something to do for ME that made me happy so that I was able to be happier around him . DOES that make any sense .

Also WS may feel more drawn to you when you are not so wrapped into THE A MODE only !!!

ITS hard as hell ,, and yes you need to vent alot here get your every thought out of your head and feel listened to .

I hate the word "TIME " I use to fight it , say I don't want it to take so long thats not what I want .

Also its horriable to here things about OW especailly when they are GOOD things .

And some may say when fog lifts they relize SHE was not all that ..

WELL not mine he still feels bad for her, pitys her and thinks SHE didn't do ANYTHING wrong that she is a great person and got a bad deal handed to her in life LOL

OK fear is another thing to deal with do you want to HE!! NO .

And that needs to be something you settle with ,, YOU need to always keep in mind you will not ever control what he does or says with anyone . Also You are not the resaon he does anything .

FELLING like the kids are the only resaon he came home ,, thats tough I went through that and still do sometimes . I made it clear to my H he could not come home for my chilren I would not have that cause I think it worse , I pointed out that if they could not be raised in a home that 2 people love eachother and let them see that , I wanted no part of that world .

I got to go MY thoughts are all over sorry I shoulded have waited to post till I had more time .

WORK ON YOU a bit things for your PERSONAL RECOVERY very IMPORTANT VERY !!!!!

Thanks 3isacrowd! It is amazing what a baby H is. The day I confronted OW you would have thought she was cheated on since June. I feel like the strength I have shown puts both of them to shame. One of Hs big ENs is amiration, and I just don't admire him right now. The reality is I don't even like him. I sent him a very nice e-mail today. Nothing mushy or demanding. Perfect love bank material. We'll see if he mentions it. Right now I can't figure out why I wrote it.

Right now I can't stand the OW. I thought I had left her behind after I talked to her. But realizing what her actions and his caused is just so scummy. I don't know how you can stomach your Hs comments about OW.

I totally get what you're saying about Ding him. I feel like I could move on. Be free. Right now I don't even think I'd care if they got together. OK, don't anyone hold me to that one. But I'd tell everyone I know. I'd have loads of support. I'd join a divorce support group. This icky limbo state sucks. That's my favorite word lately, "sucks." I'm in limbo over a man who doesn't love me, and who I think is a big wimp. Great! This all makes loads of sense.

The kids influenced his decision to stay with me, although he's confused now. However, I won't stay in this marriage if we don't reconnect big time. I would rather be alone. Ain't life fun? CV