OP tactic number one is "Let's you and him fight". My FOW worked really hard at that. In fact, she tried so hard to be brutal and cruel when informing my BS about the affair that she ADDED things to an already ugly list of wrongs.

Now, I am glad she did.

The first thing that happened was the expected - BS lost it, knocked my eye shut and told me she was done with me forever. By day 3 she had shifted to "I've got too much invested here and too much of it is good to throw it away. IF he toes the line and proves this was a mistake I MIGHT let him live".

Essentially - OW made us both see what we were throwing away by fighting each other and since that day it has been us against whomever threatens US.

One way to be strong for your WS is by no taking their crap. Expose the affair if it will make things uncomfortable, let WS know that you are quite prepared to kick them out for good.

It comes down to this - a foggy WS does what is best FOR THEM. VERY seldom do they leave for the OP permanently. Why? Because the op is meeting the 20% of their ENs you aren't. It is generally in the WS's interest to come home and if they see that the fence is NOT an option they come home. If they leave and move in with OP??? Let's see how fantasyland survives real life, morning breath, farts, bills, housekeeping and all.... most affairs crumble under that but quick.

IMHO the WORST thing you can do is enable it or say 'I'll be waiting'.

Pour some stress on the affair, expose it and set hard boundaries - no allowing that which you can't live with and WS's come around faster when it hits them that they are going to lose everything that really matters.

This fog & withdrawal is so tough. It's nice to hear from some of you unfogged WSs. Maybe my H will totally wake up one day.

H woke me up about 5am with panic breathing. When I asked what was wrong he told me the following. His business is financially strained because he now has 2 people doing the job of OW. He paid her 2 months salary as part of getting her out of there, and will be paying her unemployment. And now he's stuck being responsible for training 3 new people. I tried to be empathetic, but then said, "And why is this all going on?" I then pointed out how my life has basically sucked for months, except I didn't have anyone holding me in bed. Do you hear me complaining? I know. LBs.

I then did the unthinkable and Called OW a "B". It is very clear he is not ready to see her with any clarity. If you read any of my "love Letter" post you'll see how pukey those letters were. I wanted to ask him, "Did you really find that mushy crap romantic?" I swear I don't ever remember writing love letters like that even when I was in-love with H and my previous love.

I wish Hs withdrawal would have been done in a week. I then proceeded to ask H what he thinks there in-love would have been like in 2yrs, 5 yrs, or more. Since she's 20yrs. younger does he want to raise another family. H says "No!" Is he looking forward to dealing with the sick and dying parents again? "No." I mentioned the fact that people having As are very selfish and don't bring out the higher parts of each other, especially if they encourage each other to lie and deceive. He gets all this intellectually, but Emotionally he's not there. He still loves her. He can't admit to how manipulative she is. Those letters were ALL about stroking his ego. She did a great job! He has had NC. But will this get better before I'm ready to tell him to get lost? I'm actually having this fantasy of them together 2yrs. down the road. Together and miserable. I know, not a good MB fantasy!

CV- Keep trying.Stay in front of him.The one thing FT did for me was bombard me with information.I read all the books.She kept asking me to think about what the future would have been like.The REAL future.She got me to read post's from this site.

The other thing she did,and it sounds like you are doing this too, was comfort me and try and understand what I was going throught.For the life of me I can't grasp how hard it must be to comfort someone in that situation.Both spouses have their own issues, and their own pain to work through.It takes strenght and love a lot of love to get through this.But it can be done! Nose to the grindstone.

Hang in there.Do whatever you can to get through.And do a lot of it.If he is not out of the fog reach through the fog and get him!

Tell, thank you for starting this thread, I know it's a lot to ask but can you read my background under just found out and haven't seen anything in my situation? it will give you an idea of where I'm coming from and make more sense the questions I have. I've been reading so much on this website and forum, plus books by dr. harley and others, so i'm trying to make sense of everything and take away what I think i can use (balance between plan A and tough love) and apply to OUR situation (no kids and already living apart before A started).

basically I haven't been the person that i think my H fell in love with and married for quite some time. I thought I was getting back to that point but I guess not fast enough. I'm going back to our home (in another state) this weekend for a week while my H is on spring break and I thought I would be able to talk and plan A but he called me last night to talk about a couple of things and told me that he would not be staying at our house while I was there because it would be easier on him. I said I didn't think that was necessary and that I still wanted to spend some time with him but did say it was okay for him not to be there.

I want to ask him some questions (and remain calm and collected) and maybe you could give me your thoughts on these questions, I would like to know that why when the OW says that they are soulmates and that she will always love him no matter what and will wait for him, why that hold more weight for him then when I say it?

since obviously I have changed since we first met and married what makes him think that she wouldn't do the same?

All he keeps saying is that he can't go back and that he wants to be happy, she makes him happy, and I should let him go. I want to believe that part of the reason why he is saying this is because he thinks that even if he did give it another chance things would return to the way they used to be. Does that make sense? I also know that because I wasn't meeting so many of his needs (i mean a lot of them) and she met them instantly how I understand how this makes him feel. But didn't I once meet those needs?

I really want to talk to him about how this A is like an addiction, he's not a very strong person (I realize now) and how I know what his needs are (admiration, respect, communication, SF, etc.). Of course I feel like anything I have said to him in regards to the fact that I can make him happy went on deaf ears. We haven't really talked about anything since everything came out into the open and I did everything I shouldn't have (begged, pleaded, cried, tried to kill myself, etc.)

I guess one of the hardest things right now is to think he is actually imagining/planning a life without me. At the same time I feel that I was never given a chance. I didn't know about the whole HN/HN and he didn't say anything to me. he said he just kept trying to stay more and more busy so that he wouldn't be hurt by me. I finding it hard to show or prove anything to him when we live in 2 different states (not because of this). Also that all of this (the A and me finding out) has happened in such a short amount of time. He went from giving me an absolutely beautiful card before I moved to wear I am about all the rough times we've been through and how he was glad we were married, etc. then making the choice to be with another woman.

kind of feeling desparate for advice right now and any thoughts you could offer or any other WH would be greatly appreciated. I wish I could afford to get counseling w/dr. harley but that's just not possible right now. But I guess if my wishes came true I wouldn't be here in the first place. I'm leaving friday after work to go to our house so if i could get some advice by that time I would be very greatful. thanks in advance.

Thanks tellthetruth. It really is helpful to talk to a former WS. I actually copied what you wrote from this thread and something another FWS wrote me last week. After he read them I asked him what he thought. It was unclear, but I got the feeling he is so not where you guys are it's hard for him to relate. He is still looking at his fantasy as the real love. This morning he didn't feel hopeful about our M working. He is one confused dude.

The funny thing is he is so down about his ambivalence. I didn't tell him this, but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about dumping him. After MC he said he rubbed my back yesterday because of my EN for affection. I asked his if that was so terrible. He said no, but it took some effort. I replied, "Do you think when I rub your head for a half hour it's because I just LOVE and feel like doing it?" He laughed. It's about action even if your not wanting to.

I'll keep plugging along and hope we can both recover from this A. Do you think he should post here for support? I told him he can't read my posts yet, and I wouldn't read his. But he is so alone. I'd love him to be able to talk to some of you recovered WSs. Tell me what you think. Thanks much! CV

Tellthetruth, did you used to go by the name of "trueheart?" I had emailed a message to trueheart42@hotmail.com to ask for some additional guidance based upon my situation. Please let me know if I am mistaken. Thanks

rr- no I did not go by that.BUt shortly after d-day FT gave a post from him.It made a huge difference for me.Not at first but gradually I got it.Also I am going to respond to your earlier post I've only got a minute right now.


CV- Yes he should post here.I am sure he could get something from someine on this site.As you already know there are some awesome people with good intentions here.I don't know that I would discourage him from reading your posts.This goes against what my W brought me around to OPEN and Honest.Remember you are trying to get through to him however you can.Maybe if he reads what your going through it will get to him.Maybe if reads what other people are telling you it will help.

No secrets at this point on either side.At least that's how FT and I made it.Good luck.God bless.

Truth, I can't get my WH to be honest. I told him the site, he won't come. I got the books, he won't read. Is that a good idea to have his friend to talk to him?

TELLTHETRUTH-

I have been reading your posts on here about BS being strong and fighting for your marriages.

Maybe you can help me here. HOw do you fight when my H is living with the OW, moved in with her only after knowing her for a week. I sent him a 22 page letter, pouring out my heart to him.I told him how I showed that I loved him, asked him for forgiveness where I didnt show love and put all kinds of bible verses in there to show him what he was doing is wrong, put quotes in there from other WS's and quotes about how he is hurting us. We have been married for 25 years and he basically said to me, we should have never married and I never loved you.

How do you fight for that. What do you do to make them see that you want reconciliation. Do I contact the OW and let her know that I want my husband back and that she is breaking up a family.

I hope you can give me some advice here.

Thanks
Cheryl

TTT - I like what you said abut beiing strong. As the BS I was falling apart the first few weeks, and the needier I was the more he retreated.
then one Sat AM I woke up feeling strong and took a new tact.

I looked at him as we were waking up and kissed him hard and said "you belong to me and the kids, you have no choice at this point to think about anything else. You may be hurting and that is OK, but you are Mine. You cna not make a good decison right now so I will tell you this, we will be back to the great place we once were and you will be happy again so just give up now ans stop fighting me" and I kissed him again and we had a great weekend.

I have tried to keep at this but I have some real bad days (we are still only 8 weeks into this) But he seemed almost relieved when I was this way.

Might not work for everyone...He always objected when I was needy, be strong and he was interested

^

rr- The bestadvice I can give you is to get him to IC. Talk to him. Show him how much your marriage means to you.Tell him how you feelabout him and how you feel aboput yourself.Open up!The one thing that FT did was keep at it.She got me to see things clearly, I might have fought it at first but I wasn't so far gone that I could ignore her coments and questions for long.As far as contacting the OW you are going to get a mixed bag on this site about that.FT did confront the OW.I hope this helps.Good luck God bless.

Lost- I can't tell yo whether to involve his friend or not.The best thing I can say is on d-day after my W told her mother, my MIL said this to me"I know you will make the right choice.I love you." So I guess if there is someone out there your H will listen to, get them to help.


Cheryl- Some people on this site say no to contactint the OP. My W did.Sha told her to stay away from our family or else.We were next door neighbors and it worked.So I say yes.It worked for us.Unfortunately he is there with her.The question is how to get him home?That would be a good thread to start from you.


Anotherone- Keep being strong You are gonna have bad days.My W did and still does, fewer now.Just keep showing him your strength and soon he will show you his.Does he know about EN?Once I found aboput EN meeting her needs became the most important thing, and still is.

TTT thanks for all your replies. I don't think it is a good idea for ME to contact the OP but I still think that contacting the OW's mom is something that needs to be done. Like I said maybe she already knows but at least if I do this I will not always wonder "well if I had talked to her mom maybe that wuold have helped."

Did your wife have a hard time balancing between fighting for you and trying to plan A or meet your EN? I guess I'm still torn about fighting for my marriage (which I will do until the day I die) and not coming off as desperate, clingy, and needy which is what I'm hearing the majority of people advise.

A couple of things he has said to me since everything came out in the open is that I always made decisions without him, just did whatever I wanted and that for some reason he fears me. I asked him about what he meant by "fear" and he said he didn't really know but that he just felt that way. I know I can't dwell on what he might say or how he might react but I can't help it and feel that since I told him I would let him go (before I found this website) if know I come back and tell the OW mom that I want to save my marriage and if I tell him that now that will be something else that I've done without consideration for him.

I guess I'll soon find out how things will turn out.

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

CV-Did you ask him why he wasn't hopeful? Does he know about EN and the MB principles?Have you guys done the MB homework?Believe it or not it helped us both to do MB homework and to talk to Dr.Harley. If your H would like to talk I can give you my IM.Let me know.

TT, is it possible to give you your e-mail? How I want my H talk to someone.

tellthetruth, I don't think he's hopeful about our M because he's ambivalent. So am I, but at the same time I "think" if we put the effort in we can heal. Yet, I have a lot of forgiving to do. I think what's difficult for him is the fantasy of the in-love with OW. I'm sure he's wondering if he can feel those feelings for me. He has had a heavy withdrawal. If you read my meltdown post you know he was crying in the middle of the night for her. Boy, I love that! SH$$, he was having sex with this woman since July or August, and in his words had, "deep feelings of love" since friggin April or May. He put me in the roommate status. So he's probably wondering if he's giving up the love of his life. Frankly I don't have the stomach to verify my theory. I just hope this withdrawal doesn't last too long.

If you didn't see my post on the recovery site about sexual recovery I'd appreciate your input, if you have an opinion. If you would have asked me one year ago if I'd be talking about my Hs A, and discussing my sex life with total strangers, I would have said you're crazy. What a life!

Thanks so much for your offer for my H to IM you. I will run it by him. He really doesn't have a lot of support. He actually called his sister today whose H had an A 18 monthss ago. He said it was her or Ow. I said "OW?" he told me who else would understand. I hope he wasn't too serious about calling her.

Also, Right now I don't want him reading my posts. I'm afraid it would inhibit me. Right now I really need the support to heal. If he posts I don't want to read his either. I don't want to hear about his LOVE feelings for OW. Too much info. Thanks again! CV

TTT, did you ever feel like you didn't know if you wanted to stay in your M? I've been fighting like h*** for mine, have confronted the OW (did no good, in fact she flaunts herself in front of me), gone to MC (H went twice), read SAA, and have tried to plan A my butt off. But my H still wants to leave, says it doesn't have anything to do with OW, and says he need time to think about what he wants. He's leaving at the end of the month, has refused promising NC, yet wants us to work on being "friends". What do you think?

WGUY- I did doubt ny M or staying in it.But I think it was to justify having the A in my mind. There was nothing wrong with my M.We had problems but nothing that couldn't be worked out.

At first the OW flaunted in front of my W. We were next door neighbors so she would prance around on her drive shortly after d-day.After FT confronted her and I gave her the NC letter and she finally got it that she had no chance.At FT request I confronted her and told her how disgusted I was with her and what we had done.

Unlike your H I didn't want to leave.You KNOW him leaving has everything to do with the OW.As far as NC you need that.Without it recovery is impossible.NC also starts to give you the power you need to heal yourself and your M.Power also comes from knowing your H is committed 100%.Committed to Open and Honesty about the A his feelings, everything...
committed to IC and MC every appointment and participate...
committed to education I read several books and 'lots of posts.


You might also get that power by making him leave now instead of waiting until the end of the month.

TTT, the difference between you and my H is that you chose your family. That makes the world of difference. My H is at the point where he has given up on our R and doesn't know what he wants, yet says it isn't about OW. A part of me believes that because he is so needy intimately with me. I know he loves me when we're intimate. He just won't commit. He thinks moving out and having space and time to think will help him to decide what he wants. He says he wants to get IC for himself. I wish he could see that he can do that if we remain together. I just don't understand.