I posted this morning on the "BSs Be Strong" thread if any of you want to know how my day started. It was a very bad day. I felt intense anger at both H and OW. Screamed at them both at the top of my lungs when I was home alone. Haven't done that before. Told my shrink today that I feel like my life has been put on hold for months and I need to figure out a way to start living it again. It's like all I want to do is come to this site and get support. Probably because I felt so alone all the months H was cheating on me.

Yesterday H wasn't able to get his usual employees scheduled for tonight. Being that I am constantly trying to fill his little love bank I told him I'd work it tonight with the new funeral director he hired, so he could get some time off. When I got there it turned out I had about 45 minutes to kill. H deleted all the love letters he and OW had sent each other. But recently it hit me he might have a stash in his office. So I thoroughly searched every draw, every closet, every filing cabinet. Nothing! I did find in his top drawer 2 professional pins with her name on them. Why is he keeping those? I was planning on dumping them, but decided I didn't want him to get suspicious of my snoopy ways.

Alright, I'll get to the point. I saw his safe, found the key, and hit paydirt. There they were, wrapped up in a rubber band. As soon as I got home I locked myself in the bathroom and read them. H has been so sketchy about their LOVE, I needed to get a clearer picture, and I did. Of course just her side of it. OMG, I felt like I was reading letters written by a 16 yr. old. Listen to this S$$T."(1) I will miss you more than you believe (2) Remember we share the same sun, moon, & stars, (3)Anytime I see a bunny I will remember you and me." What the heck does that mean? They screwed like bunnies? I must be sick because I LOL when I read that bunk.

She also wrote H a letter after he ended it. Some memorable quotes: "You asked why I chased after you. I don't really think I chased after you. I really believe we just fell into this relationship because of our needs. Those needs developed into love. A love that is rare and precious and can't ever be forgotten." Can I gag now? But I'm not done. "Personally, I think we are both being a bit selfish right now. You may not think you are, but I think you are because you didn't pick me. You thought of what was better for you, not what was better for us. I am being selfish because I want you and don't understand why you didn't pick me." Well, you get the picture!

How do I feel now? I want to dump H. Why? Because he has been lying to me since this A came out. Five weeks ago I found an e-mail he sent his ex-shrink on Dec. 16. He told the man he and OW have been in a strong relationship for 8 months, which would mean April or Early May. He had told me no feelings had been expressed until maybe July. When I confronted him about the e-mail he said no, he just was developing feelings for her. Well I found a letter dated May 21 and they were obviously relating their love feelings. Plus my H said he had nothing to do with the breakup of her marriage. She didn't even separate from her H until the summer. Every question I've asked him, like did they express their feelings before a certain event happened that I remember, he'd act like he can't remember. Now I know it was all
B$$LS%%t. He told me he didn't have intercourse with her. I found a letter where she expressed how wonderful it was making love to him. She actually sent him a card when my dad was dying in the hospital.

Lies, lies, and more lies! I was talking to my 2 boys before they went to bed. I have been so preoccupied I have really looked at them. I looked at them tonight. I saw these 2 beautiful boys, 17 and 14. I thought, we'll be OK together. Earlier today I realized H not only betrayed me, he betrayed them, and he betrayed my family. I feel sick that my dad was at his funeral home.

I've read that an A is doubly painful when the WS keeps lying. I'm feeling that now. I want to show him the letters and say, "If these are so precious to you, locked up in your safe, keep them. Hire OW back. I don't really care."

I sent him a beautiful e-mail several days ago. It wasn't mushy, just very supportive.He already erased it from his computer. But he's saving this icky dribble from her.

Is it wrong of me to be so disgusted? To want out of this pain? What should I do with these letters. If he is with me they have to go in the shredder. Also, if he's still seeing her I know I can't do Plan A. I can't live with him and have him with her. I know so many of you are so couragious with Plan A. I'd have to go right to Plan B. Is that wrong? I am losing my love for this man because he won't be straight with me. I thought it was just taking him a while to get the details out. But the lies are different. It's more betrayal.

Sorry, I had to get this out. Maybe I'll be able to sleep now. Please, I really need your opinions. Thanks Much! CV

I TOTALLY know what you experienced!!!!!

My WH and I were in some intensive MC where he was asked to end contact with OW for just 8 weeks. If at the end of the 8 weeks he did not feel he was making considerable progress in the M, it was basically a deal where he could re-initiate contact (obviously the counselor was using this as a bargaining chip so he would agree to the 8 weeks NC). So we entered into this therapy, massive counseling, massive church, marriage bible studies, the whole deal. The whole time, WH swore to me that he had not had any contact. I could tell by his lack of interest in the M, however, that this just wasn't true.

So, one night in a fit of stupidity (or cleverness, however you want to look at it)...I played detective and managed to get away from home with a lame excuse, take WH's security badge to work, his car keys (which had the keys to his desk) and decided to check it out for myself (because I knew he would stash anything there, because that was the only place I had NO access to, it is fort knox, the e-mail system can only be accessed from within the building, they have secure intercompany sametime chat, etc).

I was S*&$tting my pants, but I went into his office acting like I was supposed to be there, badged in, went to his desk (I went at night so the place was deserted except for a few night shift employees). I searched every single nook and cranny of that cubicle....and walla, found:

* A picture we had taken together that used to sit proudly on his desk was tucked away in a bottom drawer

* Slews of love letters from her talking about their love, sex, and worst of all "our children" (WHICH MADE ME WANT TO KILL THEM BOTH, because she would refer to my kids as "our children"...she has some serious NERVE).

* Little cards, gifts, etc.

* A shirt she had sent him from India

* A intercompany peer appreciation award commending him for his excellent service while overseas (I bet he gave excellent service...but do all his colleagues now much of it was naked in his hotel room......AAARRRRRRRR)! This makes me even more irate because he was later awarded this big deal diversity service award from his "work" in India...recvd a bonus and everything. I just wanted to scream "HAVE YOU ANY IDEA WHAT THIS LOSER WAS DOING OVER THERE...HE WAS F&*KING SOME LOW LIFE GIRL AND BETRAYING HIS WIFE, HIS CHILDREN, HIS FAITH, AND EVEN THIS COMPANY"!!!!

So I took it all. Every single solitary item even remotely related to her. Took the cards, pictures, letters, shirt, award, EVERYTHING!!!!

I even tried to hack into his company computer, but I got the wrong password 3 times so it locked him out.

When I got home, he still LIED his A$$ off to me. I asked him "Has she ever sent you a letter?" No. "Has she ever sent you any gifts??" No. "Not even textiles of some sort?" No. "How about clothing?" No. "HOW ABOUT A DAMN SHIRT, THAT IS PURPLE WITH SOME INDIAN PRINT ON IT??????

Then he knew what I did. He said "You are crazy and clever. You could have gotten caught and gotten in big trouble. But you also really planned this well and found all the things I had kept from you...if I had been telling you the truth you would not have had to do that." Can you believe it...it was almost like he was impressed with my sleuthing abilities.

Since then I have confiscated his passport (no quick visits to see that slut in India), any and all items he purchased there (I have stashed them all in the bottom of some drawer in my bedroom, but these "gifts" that he bought for the family are definitely no longer on display...I couldn't bar to see them and think, did she help pick them out), he had some Indian music CD's that were in his CD sleeve in the car...I will take those thank you very much.

I know he knows I have that stuff...and we have not ever openly discussed it, and it is very passive agressive of me (which is unusual, becuase I am usually agressive agressive), but I figure he stole much more from me.

And when I think about that stuff, and how he lied, to me, our PASTOR, didn't give the counseling program a fair shot, keep his end of the 8 week deal, ALL OF IT, it pushes me to say "SEE YA" too.

Sleep on it before you do anything. Not a bad idea at all!!!!

P.S. In the whole grand scheme of things, the timing of the A, the details of the A, the dialogue about their "love" ...hold on while I just PUKE...is all par for the course. They hardly EVER tell the truth while stupified by the fog. Truth telling and cheater is kinda the oxymoron of the century, you know?

:-)

Sorry this is a little off topic and probably won't help your situation one bit but I feel like typing a response to this.

I am in absolute disbelief that people DO this to others. It happened to me but I am still in disbelief! 8 months has passed and I must still be in some kind of post traumatic shock because every time I read another story I get sick to my stomach. Sometimes I wish that I could just walk away from everything because I almost feel like these fears and feelings will never go away. I feel like I will never be able to trust my spouse EVER again. People even comment to me that I seemed much happier when she was gone. I lived every moment for Lord and many of my friends would comment that I seemed rather upbeat for such a terrible situation. Now all I seem to feel is fear. Fear that this crap will happen again and I am just setting myself up for it again.

I am so sorry CV55, my heart really goes out to you. I'm new here, so I really don't have many answers. All I can say is that your story hit home and I am gong to put you in my prayers tonight.

Supposedly my H has ended contact. I haven't detected any signs that he has resumed contact. He has told me during this fabulous withdrawal stage that he thinks about her 24/7, and wants to contact her. I actually appreciated the shred of honesty. I am suspicious he might be setting himself up for contact. I saw on his e-mail a registration for aol instant messaging. We don't have aol, but guess who does? I asked him about that and he said he's always had that. HMMMM, I wonder why he didn't give me that password. Turns out H and OW used to LOVE sayng their nightly goodnights via IMs. SOOOOO romantic, isn't it?

Before I even found these letters today I thought how unromantic affairs are. I've always felt like this. I hated "The English Patient." What's romantic about lying and deceiving the people you love? What's romantic about encouraging each other to act in the most selfish and cruel ways to the people who love you? If that's love, you can have it!

After I posted before I reread OWs letter that confirmed they had sex, and obviously more than once at that point. It was written during the summer blackout in August. I realized they were having passionate sex, (thinking about it gave OW shivers) at exactly the time my dad was dying in the hospital. I was at the hospital every day, twice a day, for hours. I'm so glad that gave them the opportunity to show their LOVE for each other. Reading that was one more kick in the gut. The day we found out my dad was definitely dying, and probably wouldn't last through the night, we all gathered around his bed. My brothers, their wives, my aunt, cousins. I called H to tell him the news and see if my boys wanted to say goodbye. They loved their grandpa and wanted to come. I saw the life slowly drain out of my beautiful father. He waited until we were all gone to die. But what I realized is that my H never offered to hold me. I had to go to him and ask to be held. He was there for the boys. I'm sure he felt guilty as hell. He loved my dad. My dad was more of a father to him than his father.

Wow, writing that brought it all back. I just sat here and cried. Hs A was bad enough. The fact that he was Fing her then under the guise of love feels unforgivable to me. No wonder he doesn't want to let me know he did anything with her before my dad died. You know what he told me last week? The physical part of their relationship started with a hug in September. Oh, he's good! He's covering his butt anyway he can. What he doesn't realize is that every lie drives me further away. My shrink told me today in regards to PTSD that every time H gives me a knew piece of info it puts me back into PTSD symptoms. So I know what you're saying eMafia.

Sorry this is so long. I started writing this at 4:30am. I was just starting to sleep again until this. I guess I only have myself to blame for snooping. In the book "Not Just Friends" it talks about how we Americans will never be the same after 9/11. After that day we will forever look at the world in a different way. She compares that to how the BS feels after the A. I feel like there was an innocence and pureness in our marriage that is gone forever. That hurts the most.

Thanks ChristV. Your sleuthing definitely beats mine. I'm sure you didn't feel one ounce of guilt, and neither do I. Somehow being betrayed opens the door to all sorts of knew behaviors.

EMafia, sorry my post brought back your pain. Every time I read the posts on here I feel everyone's pain. I'm crying just thinking about it. I'll say it again! Love can't be about causing this kind of pain to people. Thanks for your prayers. I always appreciate them! CV

Experienced MBers, I really could use some advice. My H obviously didn't have to go in his safe today at work. He doesn't have a clue I have his love letters. Last night when I was typing and posting at 4:30am, he came in the room twice and asked me to come to bed. When I said I couldn't sleep he offered to rub my head. The 1st time he really has given ME the affection, as apposed to the comfort I've been giving him. I was pretty pissed at him, but let him. Last night I really felt like I was sleeping with the enemy.

Anyway, my plan is to be radically honest in MC tomorrow and tell him I read the letters. Consequently, I know everything he's been telling me about the A has been a lie, or him withholding key information. He has made this trauma twice as bad because of the lies. Frankly I'm still numb over what I read and the betrayal. But at least now I know the basics of what they did, and the timeline.

I know he's going to be really angry. I feel I had a right to snoop because I knew he was holding back, which I'll say. I hid the letters. I want to copy them if I ever need to send them to OWs parents or her exH. Plus, if he's supposedly working on our marriage I don't want those letters around. Period! Although they are valuable for a good laugh. I think I will have to keep the one about the "stars, moon, and sky." Maybe one day if we stay together he will look at how pathetic those letters are. Yuck!

I'm looking for opinions. What do you all think? This might be a major LBer. But it is radical honesty. Maybe we can get to some truth. Thanks!

Ohhh. I don't know. I got a glimpse of WH's love letters to OW from her H. They were just like he used to write to me. When I confronted WH he complained that OW's H was snooping. It just made WH mad, and he gave me no explanation.

CV55
I don't have any advice on the love letters. IMHO spying is ok as lon as lying continues!!

Anyway I just wanted to say that your "sun, moon & stars" reminds of something my W's OM said on her cell v-mail. "The sun on the water (Pacific Ocean) reminds me of your smile."

double puke!! lol

cwmac

First off, I would copy the letters and keep them just in case. Secondly, I would confront him about the letters. It is imperative that he gets everything out there on the table. I wouldn't be mean about it, but use it as an opportunity to clarify the TRUTH, telling him that you can't possibly recover as long as he holds secrets with the OW.

Otherwise, you will NEVER RECOVER. When they withhold information, it is like dying a death of a thousand cuts. Every new little dribble of truth that comes out puts you BOTH back to D-Day. Additionally, as long as he continues to hold secrets wiht the OW to which you are not privy, trust will NEVER be rebuilt.

With all that being said, nothing much is going to happen anyway until he gets out through withdrawal. He is pretty useless right now in helping you recover.

So in the meantime, you can work on getting ALL THE TRUTH out there, but avoiding lovebusters while he works on withdrawal.
'
I would also strongly suggest that you put spy software on his work computer so you can see any Instant Messages - it will record both sides. I think if you buy and install the PRO edition, it will actually email the logs to you daily. A good one is Starr Home Edition at www.iopus.com. You have to buy it, though, if you don't, it will stay in the trial version and he can detect it when he restarts the computer.

CV55.... or should I say "Sherlock" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Way to go! Nice find! I happy to say that with each stage of this ugly game we play, you sound stronger each time you post... save for an occasional vent...!!!

Make copies of those letters and put them in a SAFE place. You just never know when they might come in handy down the road. Do not confront H with them until you do have back-up copies. He may force them away from you and destroy them, and then what???

Anyway... you might consider trying to lead the counselor into "answering some questions you have about honesty" during your session, setting WH up for a direct question as to whether or not he has hung on to and "trappings" from the A, letters, gifts, etc., and see how he answers in the counselors presence. If he chooses to lie, you might just pull out the copies of those letters, and let the counselor take over at that point of confrontation?

Other posters may have other, better ideas, but it would force your H's hand a bit, make him take ownership of his lying and deception, plus let him know you know more that you have let on.

Just a thought!

Stay strong... we're pulling for you!

SD

It's strange, I think I feel this tinge of guilt for snooping because it is so unlike me. He actually told me recently, when I encouraged him to write in his journal, that he's afraid to because I'll read it. I told him I wouldn't do that, and I wouldn't. As far as the letters, most of me thinks why should I feel guilt? The man cheated on me since maybe April, and then has continued to lie about the facts. Maybe I wondered if he would have come clean on his own, but now I've taken away that opportunity. Then again, I already gave him opportunities to be honest. I sound pretty confused!

Melody, your line "It's like dying the death of a thousand cuts" is so right on. I've read the BS should not try and get all the info immediately. I have been patient. Yet, after 10 weeks the man is still lying about having sex and when they revealed the love feelings. Enough is enough. Nothing I read in those letters wasn't already in my imagination unfortunately.

Another question. Should I not tell him I have the letters, copy them, and put them back? It's Hs day off tomorrow, but I will be working there. That way give him the opportunity to part with them as recovery continues. I was going to take a hard line, but maybe that isn't the best choice. I could copy them at work. What do you think? I just don't want a big confrontation of him demanding the letters.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
[QB] It's strange, I think I feel this tinge of guilt for snooping because it is so unlike me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The real shame here belongs to HIM for putting you in this position. If he had not withheld pertinent facts about YOUR LIFE, you would not have to snoop. However, since he is lying and withholding you have a responsibility to snoop in order to protect yourself. No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. The shame belongs all to him. So snoop and be proud of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody, your line "It's like dying the death of a thousand cuts" is so right on. I've read the BS should not try and get all the info immediately. I have been patient.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What he doesn't tell you, you will only imagine as you said. And imagine the WORSE. It is a form of TORTURE and abuse to withhold facts from you. If you get it all in one fell swoop you can start recovering. If you get it in drips and drabbles, you are set back to day 1 each and every tme something new comes out. You feel deceived all over again. It is only adding to existing wounds left from the affair. Complete, radical honesty is the solution and the start to recovery and trust building. If he is withholding, he is still lying. period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another question. Should I not tell him I have the letters, copy them, and put them back? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know. I might make copies and then hand the originals over to him in MC. That way he can have the originals and make the choice what to do with them.

cv

I'm just gonna babble this out...bear with me...


1. you have the letters you KNOW the truth...

He went No Contact
He is in withdrawl

Question is what do gain by confronting him...

I'm not sure you gain anymore truth than you already have...

And I know I am not saying that his being honest is not of grave importance...
but the question is ...

do we/ can we force someone to be truthful...
probably...
Is it a good idea to force information out of someone...
is it better for them to realize and value truth or to force them to be truthful..

I don't know...probably not..
in a perfect world we would our spouses to realize that honesty is the way to go...and to come to you with this information...
and unfortunately it's not a perfect world...

I guess the question is do you BELIEVE that he can and will become that person who reconizes the need to be honest with you...

I guess my concern is that you are forcing him to say something you already know is truth...

so the issue is not the truth the issue is his reluctance/inability/refusal/ and I am not sure which word fits in here....
but the issue is his nondisclosure....

but there can be multiple reasons for nondisclosure...

I think males especially have a difficult time even understanding why you would want the details...

I think that WS do realize that this information hurts...and unfairly makes the decision how much pain you (BS) can and should handle...

I think that BS often demand truth but don't offer an environment that is safe to share...and then punish the WS for disclosing...

blah blah blah eh....

he came in the room twice and asked me to come to bed. When I said I couldn't sleep he offered to rub my head. The 1st time he really has given ME the affection, as apposed to the comfort I've been giving him. I was pretty pissed at him, but let him. Last night I really felt like I was sleeping with the enemy.

See this is kind of where the slope gets slippery...had you not found those letters...(though I am not saying that you shouldn't have "snooped and found them"...what I am saying is that without the letters..those above actions...asking you to come to bed with him twice...and offering you affection...are really positive and good things.....and had you not found the letters your post and your perception about those actions may be totally different...

Is he lying to hold on to her..
or is he lying to with-hold more pain from you...

Will any good come confronting him....and is there perhaps a better way to address this issue...

I have grave concerns about doing this in therapy...therapy needs to be a safe place for both of you with the counselor controling and directing the confrontation if it is to be effective and long term...

go in there and set the counselor up for it to appear you and he/she against your husband...and it could really blow up in your face....

CV last nights affection was a good thing...

I think you need to teach your husband about your pain...not confront...

I think you make copies hold on to the letters a little while and ride this out....even if it just for a week or two...

I think it's fair for you to say things like...
I hope you realize that even if you believe you are not telling me things to save me from pain...that I am strong enough to handle that pain...and that I will always value the truth and you being a truthful person over lies...

etc...

this type of stuff is important..but it can also become a distraction and deflection from the real issues..
we already know he capable of lying...the question is he capable of valueing the truth...

ARK

CV -

At first, I was reading your posts going, "Go girl! You tell him! Let him have it!"

However, then I read ARK's post. This is the battle I myself am fighting. Granted, I don't live with WH anymore, but let me explain.

I want to see remorse. I want an apology! I want WH to be in love with me again, and do and say all the right things. I want! I want! I want!

I have come to realize, however, that I can want all I want - until the cows come home, even. But WH cannot do any of those things until he is ready. I don't want it pressured out of him, coerced, scared out of him.

It is a process. Come here and vent. Stay with Plan A. All of that has a time and place, and I don't think you should rush it.

Keep posting, sweetie. Vent vent vent! Let's keep babbling this out!

SS

I say tell him about finding the letters..wouldn't go with "confront" approach.

Radical Honesty goes both ways..if you want it you have to be willing to get it. I "confessed" all my snooping to my H.

I really do not believe that my H and I would be where we are today if I waited around for him to tell the complete truth and to disclose all. He himself admitts that he might not have told all the truth without me pushing him all the time...and he will also admitt that we wouldn't have been able to recover if we hadn't have gotten it all out on the table and dealt with it.

I made a # of discoveries...right around and after dday, I also nagged, begged, threatened, showed my agony to get more out of him. Sometimes when I found something new I freaked out and confronted him immediately...sometimes I handled it calmly and thoughtfully...truth be told...in the end it really didn't seem to effect the outcome no matter how I broached the subjects with him.

I seemed to alternate between major LBing attacks, calm reasoning and soul rendering crying/vomiting episodes with him....each of them caused him to deal with something...key is the "DEALING" with the issues and the results of their actions.

In the end of each of the sessions..no matter whether it was scream fest, a calm compassionate discussion or the hysterical crying...we accomplished something..sometimes it was a realization, sometimes it was empathy, sometimes it was guilt...we were PROCESSING the A, it's RESULTS and the state of our M pre A, the results were what was important.

All of this lead to us ultimately learning from our MC how to properly communicate through a technique called mirroring but we couldn't get there until we were done with the first processing stages and the initial emotions were out.

In all the books I've read...Processing the Affair and the pre-A marital state are critical to recovery. Without getting it all out on table you can't really do that.

My personal motto was I CAN'T WAIT TO GET OUT OF THIS HELL...I COULD NOT SURVIVE WAITING AROUND FOR THINGS TO OCCUR AT THEIR OWN PACE.

So I pushed both of us...because of this we were in hell a shorter period of time then most couples who recover from an A.

Every waking minute of the day agony only lasted for about 3 mths for us and then it started to lessen. We were only able to accomplish this because we devoted almost every waking minute of those 3 mths to recover efforts. If you read some of our posts from 12/02 to 3/03 you'll see how hard we both had to work.

Just my two cents worth.

CV55

Here's something I did...

I finally notified the OW's H about 3 months past d-day. Told him the facts that I knew...facts that H reluctantly agreed to tell me...be honest about, etc.

Once OW's H confronted the OW, OW started singing like a bird. Told her H every little detail he asked for.

Of course that information got back to me. I learned about a lot of stuff that H was still lying about or not telling.

I freaked. My first reaction was to choke the living s*** out of him. I was so heartbroken (again) to find out he still wasn't being truthful.

Ran to my IC and bawled my eyes out, ranted and raved, etc. By the end of the day I was calm enough to say to H:

"I can't believe that you would let me hear the details of your A from a complete stranger. I thought you agreed that honesty was necessary for us to try recovering our M, but as it turns out, you feel the need to protect your feelings instead."

That's when I asked him to move out...since he couldn't be truthful about the A, his feelings, our past, etc.

I learned that H would only admit to what I had uncovered or already knew and nothing more. He always knew what I knew because I was very vocal about it.

In this case H kept saying that he could tell me whether the information I had was true or not because he didn't know what I had been told (click). Said OW and OWH were just trying to cause us problems and break us up.

Yeah, right.

Anyway, I didn't say anything more than that. H finally broke down (like a week later) and told me more A details...most of what I had just found out from OWH and then some. H figured I knew EVERYTHING so he told me everything.

I felt it was important for H to be honest with me and not pry it out of him...or lay it all out in front of him.

Might be helpful to let your H know that you have learned more information about his A and let him fill in the blanks. (I'd copy the letters for yourself and put the originals back.)

Just a thought.

Take care.

sss

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I got home, he still LIED his A$$ off to me. I asked him "Has she ever sent you a letter?" No. "Has she ever sent you any gifts??" No. "Not even textiles of some sort?" No. "How about clothing?" No. "HOW ABOUT A DAMN SHIRT, THAT IS PURPLE WITH SOME INDIAN PRINT ON IT??????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

*SNORT*.... OH MY!

This post gave me such a sense of deja vu. Now that I'm 4+ years post d-day (and happily recovered), I'm actually able to laugh at this situation (as well as my own past situation).

My advice-- toss the "bundle of love" to him while he's watching TV tonite (make sure the kids are out of earshot). BE HONEST-- Tell him they've been read... ask him if he has anthing he'd like to discuss with you. Assuming that you still want your M to work at this point, ask him how he would feel about divulging this information with the marriage counselor at next week's visit (??!).

In our situation, the day I found more incriminating evidence (which consisted of out-and-out lies) at the 2-3 months post d-day point, was the day I decided I was DONE with the LIES.

Honestly? At that point, I was done with EVERYTHING-- the marriage, the counseling (what good is counseling when one partner is lying thru their teeth???!), the willingness to even care if I was still being lied too (if that makes sense).

I never thought anything could crush my spirit (i've always been one to rise above my pain!), but I "slipped away" that night... and it took many, many months before I found MYSELF again.

Honesty is my #1 EN. My H knows this. If my H isn't willing to meet my #1 EN, then I know he's not the RIGHT MAN FOR ME.

It's not wrong to desire honesty. It's not wrong to make it your number ONE need.

But, let's be honest-- One who desires honesty must at least be willing to practice honesty themselves.... SO-- STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND BE HONEST! Tell your H what you did-- own up to the fact that your sneaky suspicions got the best of you.

Best of luck to all who continue to rebuild with a less-than-stellar WS.

Amazing endings are possible-- never forget it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . ~Marie

Thanks for all your great replies. I hope you don't mind if I don't answer each one individually. Except Ark, I do want to clarify one thing. At first, when I realized it was a PA about 6 weeks ago, I wanted to get every detail from him immediately. He flipped out and couldn't tell me anything. Then I chilled out and would grill him a little about once a week. Still barely got anything. Then he kept changing the story about whether they did or didn't have sex. I felt like I needed a picture of this A to make sense of it. I guess to get more of the picture of the puzzle. Those letters did that for me.

The thing is I thought he was just reluctant about revealing info because of his shame, thus the amnesia. But those letters showed me he has been out and out lying to me. He told me about a week ago their first physical act was hugging in the parking lot in Sept. Her letter said they'd been screwing at least since August.

What I'm concerned about is the continuation of keeping secrets keeps him tied to her. H and OW know exactly what happened. It's there little private, special memories. In "Not Just Friends" the author says when the WS talks about the A crap it lessens their obsession. So that's one reason I want him to start spilling. I also think he is scared S$$TLESS to tell me he was Fing OW when I was dealing with my dad dying. When I ask him a question I will use my dad's death as a reference point. "Was it before my dad died or after?" He'll say "That's a loaded question. Does it matter?" I don't think he can face that he so screwed me over when I was going through one of the worst times of my life. And he totally withdrew from my dad who he loved. He told me today he hasn't grieved for my dad yet. Affairs are so great aren't they? Don't they just bring out the best in people?

Finally I need to tell him for this reason. "Honesty and Openess" is a big EN for me also. I can't be with someone who continues to lie. Also, really finding out that he screwed this woman, even if I suspected it, has rocked me. Men supposedly have a harder time knowing their S had sex. Well, I'm not crazy about it either. Plus, I am right now burying my rage and disgust over how he let me down on so many levels when my dad died. In the beginning I told him and cried over him involving OW in my dad's funeral. Now I know he was actually screwing her then. That whole period is going to take a lot of forgiveness. We don't have what it takes now to deal with it. At least he doesn't. He is in such withdrawal from this little twit. Later in the day he told me he was so depressed he was suicidal. He then said he would never do anything, but he's suffering. He said I didn't deserve what he did to me.

Now I guess after all that I need to fill you all in on what I actually did today. I realized this morning that we have a copier on our printer. Duh! I had all this free time to copy the stupid letters, and now I'm home with H. So when he was in the shower I got them out of the attic, locked the door, and copied those babies. I am such a bad sleuth. My hands were shaking. Unfortunately I didn't have time to copy the lovely cards. I so wanted a record of the bunny and strawberry themes that were running throughout. I also thought the several religious cards she sent H were very touching. You know, how God has brought them together. Something like that.

He was such an anxious wreck this morning, dreading therapy, that I made the call that it wasn't the time to bring it up in therapy. I also went to his business later and put them back in his safe. The thing is he was in the safe. I could tell things were moved around. I didn't know where the heck I should put them back. We'll see if he notices. I think I'm going to call our therapist tomorrow and get his opinion. He knows H well.

The MC was great today. I held back and let H talk. He talked about 3 nightmares since the A was revealed. Two in the last week. He and I are in almost every one of them. In one we were covered in black walking towards a cliff. The devil was in front of us, and H was also the devil. If we turned around we would be safe, but would have to walk up jagged, difficult steps. The Devil was yelling at us to go back. H is torn about letting our M go off the cliff, but more of him wants to turn back, but he doesn't know if he wants to do the work. H said, "I guess I'm the devil because I have been the demon in this situation." I guess you could say his subconscious is talking to him.

Therapist is really trying to dispel the fantasy of OW. He said if he were to end up with her he's CERTAIN they would have problems. He also said, "There is no comparison between OW and W as far as who is functioning at a higher level. Look at the woman who is sitting here with you. For most women you'd be history."

Once again, a very long post. I guess you guys are stuck with my venting. It's replaced my journal. Thanks again! And please comment some more if you want. I find it so helpful. CV

CV55,

I'll echo what several other people have already told you and what you've decided to do (just in case you waffle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). TELL your H about the letters. It's not a raging confrontational telling, but an open honesty telling. Think disrespecful judgments (you damn liar!) vs. radical honesty (you have to know where I'm coming from so we can both help each other heal).

My H told me during his entire EA that he was fighting his feelings of love for OW. He swore they rarely talked about feelings, and never about a future together. He said they were waiting for the infatuation to die down so they could enjoy a long lost friendship (she was his high school sweetheart).

I found a bill for some chocolates and asked him about them. He said they'd been ordered for me but they must have screwed up the order. Can you believe I bought that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Well, he called them and "straightened things out" and sure enough chocolates arrived at our house but a second bill showed up in our account. So I called the company and asked them what addresses had the orders been shipped to. I was shaking like a leaf - had copied his charge card number in case they wanted it for proof that I was entitled to the info or something but they were SO helpful! Spilled her mailing address, the shipping method, the tracking number, everything! Great customer service. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I asked him again about the chocolates: "I know I've asked you about this before, and I don't want to come across as nagging. But it's VERY important to me that you be honest, no matter what. Those chocolates..." He vehemently stood by his statement that he'd never ordered her any. So I, shaking with rage and the pain of yet ANOTHER betrayal, went to my purse and pulled out a sheet of paper. I said "I already *knew* the truth. I've *known* the truth for several days. I just wanted to know you were brave enough to tell me the truth." I told him I'd called and what they'd told me. I showed him the paper with her address and the tracking info written in my hand writing.

Well, he broke down and told me "everything". AS it turned out, it wasn't everything, so we went through yet another round or two of "How could you deceive me and lie to me when you know that's the ONE thing that hurts us the most right now?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm 2 years post Dday and we still have talks about honesty. From my own experience and what I read on here, it takes WSs a LONG time to "get" how important honesty is. I've told my H that when I don't have the facts, I can't make an intelligent rational decision. I've told him it makes me doubt my own perceptions and sanity. I've told him it proves to me that I can't trust him. I've told him everything I can think of and it just took FOREVER to sink in with him.

Even now his first impulse is to cover up anything A related (OW actually phoned our house about a month ago, after > 1 year of NC! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). His first inclination was to delete the number from callerid, "to save me the pain of having to face all that again". I do believe his motives are to protect me. But he said immediately upon the first inclination of "protect turtlehead at all costs" was the realization that deception was the most painful thing he could do to me, and telling me the painful truth was the greatest gift he could give to me. He understands now that honesty, even though painful, places us hip to hip, arm in arm, on the SAME team.

So he told me as soon as he could, and I thanked him for the gift he'd given me.

It is such a natural response for a WS not to want to tell the truth. They have guilt and embarrassment to deal with. They fear the BS' anger. They really wish the whole nightmare would go away. Your H's behavior is normal and understandable but it is NOT acceptable. It will NOT lead to healing, and only prolongs the pain.

So you have to tell him what you found. You have to tell him how it made you feel. You have to tell him how now you've dealt with not only the facts of the A, but with the fact that he continues to deceive you - and that the deceit is by far the greater blow. Let him digest this. Don't rage it at him, inform him. Teach him.

Whenever he DOES tell you anything sensitive (like my H telling me about the phone call), THANK HIM. Don't *EVER* punish him with LBs for telling you the truth. And set the example by being honest with him. That was hard for me to do. I felt guilty for "shoving his face" in his EA but in the end I realized we *both* had to be honest for this to all work out. And it is - it's working out.

Turtlehead, if you read my "Meltdown" post you'll know I did tell H, but definitely LBed. Right now I'm not sure I care anymore. But thanks for telling me your story. CV