Call with SHarley today. Again extending a considerable amount of patience with W. We spoke jointly then divided the remainder of call. Again W dominated the hour alone w/ Steve. W has not completed the ENQ as we were requested to do during the previous week. I caught her out with OM (after Pool was over)and have also checked cell phone and confirmed several calls. I confronted W about this on Wednesday in a non LBing way. Thought I handled it very well. Anyway when Harley discusses my responsibility he made it clear that checking the cell phone was an LB. He also made it clear to me that secrecy has no place in M but for now my checking is an LB. He asked W whose responsibility it is to decide what makes her happy/satisfied/safe she replied "hers". When he flipped it and asked whose responsibility it is to decide what makes me happy she replied "hers". Amazing. But he finally coaxed her around to understanding that only I would know whether I was happy or not. So Steve told me stop LBing and just do all the right things and leave the rest up to him. He wants to get a good report about my behavior next week from W.
For those who want to SCREAM PLAN B already I would counter by saying this (forget that I have children involved which makes that more difficult); OM is not an option (at all)but leaving me out of spite is. An unwillingness to accept defeat and leave on principal is. Will she leave today? Of course not, she has no options at all and would never want to admit the A. BUT will she plan her escape for the next 10 years? When kids leave? Will she resent me for the remaining years of our M because I simply BROKE her will? That's not what I want. Again I come back to I DON'T WANT TO WIN A BROKEN PRIZE. She has to come back "full time" (of course she has never physically left) and be happy with me and not simply stuck with me. A final thought is this; don't underestimate the trouble you're in.

WOE

Hmmmm....

I'll trust the good doctor's wisdom on faith rather than understanding. I suppose if you are sticking to plan A then all you can do is your part and see whether or not she does hers.

It also seems reasonable that it is of little use until she WANTS you to see what she is doing and loses the secrets for good.

Just so I understand - she doesn't fill out her homework, she goes on a date with OM and your behavior needs work???? OK, I get that in the context of Plan A - it is not supposed to be fair to you but what did he tell her about her behavior? Is he also expecting her not to go on another date on this week's pool night?

I'm sure that doing this makes you feel like a doormat but MAN are you tough. I don't know how you pull it off but you must have some serious cajones and a steel spine and Faith in the mna upstairs.

Seriously wondering what her homework is for this week and whether SH probed into why she basically spit on you and the process by calling OM, seeing OM alone with alcohol in the mix and not filling out the ENQ?

Yikes... I guess he sees something that says Plan A is not failing - he offer you any insight into what he is looking for, I'm curious???

Walking,

I have had an occasion or two to watch via posts here SHarley work with WS's. It is one reason you hire a counselor, they can do what you or I would not have the patience nor the instincts to do.

I think you need to understand that if she WANTED to change, then she would. It seems to me his job is to get her to WANT to and that takes time, trust, patience, and skill.

Walking has it occured to you that you don't really need the counseling other than "Don't LB"? But, your W has issues, that much is clear. You are very right, you need her to WANT to be with you for the right reasons. You need her to SEE things differently and that includes you.

So the focus is on her, and it can only stay on her, IF he can gradually work with her. Busting her chops (which most of would probably want to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) probably won't work.

The man is good, I have seen him via posts here do the same thing in other situations.

Have patience and see where this goes. I know he is not to pull the Plan B ripcord when it is necessary, so ride with this and don't LB.

He will get around to asking if your Love Bank is empty or getting close. Give it time.

God Bless,

JL

Hmm... I, too, am very interested in where SHarley is going with this.

When I first read that checking the cellphone was a LB I thought NO WAY! A M is supposed to be totally open and honest yadda yadda yadda.

But then I thought about it some more and realized that totally open and honest describes a recovered M, and unfortunately WOE doesn't yet have a recovered M. So in the context of a Plan A when the WS is still deep in the fog, I imagine checking the cellphone could be a disrespectful judgment. It's like walking up to her and calling her a cheat and a liar (which she is, but it's still rude and presumptuous and a DJ to just call her names).

Talk about feeling like a doormat, though. That's a tough order to swallow. If you can do it, though, what will she have to be resentful over? NOTHING.

To the 3 heavyweights that have replied; thank you. OK, yes it is amazing even to me who is going through it. Harley spends very little time or effort re-assuring me. I think he well understands it's not necessary. I HAVE filled out the ENQ and forwarded it to him. It basically shows a very happy man and that's not all that far from the truth. You may remember 2OfAKind's message about a marriage that is working at 95% but still has an A; that is mine. I have several paths I could choose;

a)have an A that would rock W's world beyond her wildest dreams. I think somewhere she thinks "why don't you do that and get it over with". She has no idea of the pain I am quite sure.
b)I could place a call to OM and absolutely have him crawl back under his rock. Neither would have the stones to meet again in public. I feel sure of this. This team of 8 people is based on a very delicate balance and this would cripple things.
c)I can do what I'm doing.

Option C isn't that difficult right now. I appreciate JL's observation that she has seen this work in the past. And yes Steve is very good. There really is only one path to victory and that is with W's full endorsement.

JL, I don't ever think I don't need the counseling. Just like Turtlehead said, how would I ever have known that checking the cell phone and confirming my worst fear was an LB?

Look guys, I have been searching this board for 3 years and read the books etc. I have the 95% marriage now and if weren't for this board I wouldn't have really thought I had a problem now or even understood what an EA is. But because I know what kind of M is possible nothing else will do. I can wait.

2, specifically "did he give me an idea of where it is going?" no but he doesn't have to. I think he exudes confidence and understands I don't need to much babysitting and still have plenty of steam left. W brought up the fact that I met a friend last week and stayed out to 1:00AM. So much of a friend that our families are spending this years vacation together. W complained bitterly to Harley about that but even though she was out until 1:30 with OM on a subsequent night; that was irrelevant. So that's what I'm dealing with. Don't confuse me with the facts. HaHa. I'll be fine.

As long as you were not out with a female friend til 1AM.

Listen to me on this - She needs to learn boundaries - if you can point out that you don't go out alone with women or confide problems etcetera it makes it easier.

The boundaries you BOTH live by in the future will be defined by the weakest link, ot the strongest.

I know it is really easy to say "yeah, but I'd never sink that low"

Quick show of hands from all BS's who thought their spouse could?

And WS's... how many of you woke up one day and said "This whole honest living thing is old, think I'll go ruin my life and those of everyone around me? Hands??? Anyone????

The best defense against having an affair, or a revenge affair is understanding that when you are at your lowest and someone of the opposite sex is sympathetic and kind and understanding then YES, you are vulnerable.

...if you don't allow them close in the first place you aren't likely to stumble.

2, with regard to your suggestion/explaination as to how affairs happen and establishing boundaries I have learned some things. I would say somewhere in the middle of this 5 year period where W was in 3 consecutive EA's I was sinking pretty low and we were in thrown into a group of less than savory people. This was a result of D's soccer team. Because of an A with the male headcoach and one of the moms I was thrust into the assistant role. The head coach now was a beautiful 30 yr.old single mom. I always knew her from the coaching meetings to see only. Now that we are getting closer as co-coaches she would come to my home along with some other parents on the team for get togethers. Her daughter and mine are still best friends. One evening she came into the house and I gave her a kiss on the cheek as I greet most woman. Harmless right? The return kiss (on the cheek) spoke volumes. I didn't react but at a sugsequent party with a few more refreshments in me, I mentioned to her that her kiss seemed to convey interest. Without hesitation she responded "we could have sex for five hours and I could walk in your home the next day like nothing happened". Now this is at a time where W is kicking the **** out of me to justify her own A. As tempting as it was I respnded without hesitation "it would be more like 10 minutes and I wouldn't be right for a year". Knowing what I know now I think I should have said I wouldn't be right for 5 years.

Anyway I reported this to my wife who took it in stride. I think she was hoping something would happen to aleviate her guilt. Correct that, I know she was hoping something would happen as she used to encourage me to pick this woman up and drive her to the coaches meetings etc. I told W I will not be alone in a car with her. Anyway this story has modern day relevance.

This woman and I still coach (2 years have passed and I'm sure she doesn't remember making the comment to me; again refreshments involved)and the kids are still friends etc. Well recently her and I were to go to a bar for a fundraiser for the team. I invited W who said, "you can just go". Jello shots, cover charge etc. were donated to the team. To be safe I did go but with my father. I had him come to my home and had the girl come to my home and the 3 of us went together. Meantime W is out a school function. When we came home after being out 1 1/2 - 2 hours total all 3 of us came into the house. W was on the couch visibly agitated. So much so that I knew not to discuss it with a few drinks in me and just went to bed.
The next day I apoligized for hurting her and she said "what else is new". I did nothing wrong but it still hurt w because of this girls presence who is definitely a concern to w. Anyway the point of this story is that it told me that this kind of behavior is hurtful and unacceptable. SO IF W CAN GET HURT BY IT, THEN WHY CAN'T I? Double standar. That's why I'm able to fight with renewed vigor. I know she couldn't stand for it either. And finally while the pretty 30 yr. old was definitely a cruch for me through some bad times it never got to a dangerous level. And one more finally that will seem absurd. If I had had the A I think we would be divorced. With gambling all those years and the way wife felt lately, I don't think she could have withstood it. I know an A could happen to anybody and I almost feel like I got off easy and learned a valuable lesson from this. Remember OM is not an option, that's good.

Meantime tensions are still pretty high today. Suppose fog will roll back in later and we'll all be at peace again.

WOE

JL, you suggested I might not need counseling just don't LoveBust. I'm not sure if you're referring to IC or MC. Here's my explaination; I went to an MC in town for about 10 sessions hoping W would join. She went to one and dismissed him as a quack. I then continued to press for continued MC to which she responded "only if you deal with your issues". OK I now see an IC, to deal with my issues, so W will join in MC. Can you guess what I talk about in IC. I think my guy is getting board already and he certainly doesn't get the devastation involved. A Harvard graduate with doctorate degree and obviously his training didn't cover this. Anyway I think it embarrasses W that I go even though she suggested it. I think she expected that to be too much of a hurdle for me. If this wasn't so sad it would be funny how the WS acts.

WOE

bump