Well, you guys always seem to be right. I guess I just love my H so much that I cling on to hope and want more than anything to trust him. Lastnight, H had an errand to run. He asked if I'd like to go with him, if that would give me some peace. I said sure so we went. When we returned he said he had to get some things from his car. I sat for a minute, then that gut feeling started to strike. So, I went outside and there he was on his cell phone. He appeared to be talking, then he saw me and said "Okay" and hung up. I asked to see his phone, rather I demanded. He got upset and said he was calling his voicemail, so and so had called him, blah, blah. I checked the incoming call, nothing suspicious. I checked the outgoing call and noticed it had the LL info line. Hmm...why would he be calling that if he was supposedly calling his voicemail. Something didn't jive. So I hit the call button on the outgoing and it gave me his calling card number. That number was under the LL info line phone book listing along with some other numbers. I questioned him and he blew up. He said he was sick of this, I didn't believe him anyway, he didn't care anymore what I thought, etc. Totally signs to me of a guilty conscience, right? Otherwise, why get so angry. I told him I needed honesty and if he couldn't give it to me he needed to get out right now. I asked to see his phone again because I wanted to check the other numbers under that listing and he refused to give it to me. I said he must have something to hide. He said he was tired of playing these games with me. I said I'm not playing any games, I just want the truth. I told him he must have something to hide, he said, "Well maybe I do" (which he later tried to explain that he was being sarcastic).

Anyway, we argued a while. I don't think I LB'd, I may have. Overall, I was indifferent which I'm sure he took as me not believing a word he said. He tried to explain it all. I just listened.

Later, I left the room and just cried. I just can't take this much longer. He came in, told me to stop crying and we talked. It was a good talk. He said all this isn't really about me, but about him. He said, when he leaves he is thinking about going to a counselor for himself. I think thats good. I suggested Steve Harley since all his problems seem to stem from my A 5 years ago and the way we reacted to it afterward.

I felt bad for him. He seems so lost. If he was talking to OW, I think its because he feels shes the only one who cares about his pain. He said he can't really talk to me about it because it involves me and things he has to say would hurt me. I kind of understand that. He's bottled up this rage for so long and he needs to vent. But she's the wrong one. I think its good he's considering counseling.

Bottom line is, I know he's using his calling card to call her. Then she calls him back. He uses his cell phone so that it doesn't show on our home phone bill and she calls back since incoming calls don't show the number. What should I do about this?

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

Hi wguy - Hmmm, what should we call you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong>What should I do about this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing.

In fact, I recommend you stop snooping. We know what he's doing and further snooping just makes him mad and defensive and drives you nuts.

Give him all the rope he wants until the end of the month, then insist he leave as he planned.

Did he ever read here?

WAT

Not that I know of. And I decided against giving him your post. He already feels like no one understands him, so I thought it may prevent him from posting here.

He did say when he moves out, he'll take SAA with him and read it, or we can start reading it together. That's a start though, isn't it?

I won't say anything about knowing he's contacting her, but shouldn't I keep insisting that he be honest with me no matter if it will hurt me or not?

Yes, of course you should insist on honesty - just don't expect it and only go so far when you know you're not getting it. Why bother? When an opportune time comes, mention to him that what really hurts you is the dishonesty - more so than what he's being dishonest about.

Yes, it's good he SAYS you can start reading SAA together. Believe it when you see it. Make sure you're very familiar with it - including the names used in the example stories - for when/if the chance comes that he mentions something.

I'll be off the forum this weekend. Time with my sweetie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

Thanks WAT. Have a nice weekend.

Where are the rest of you guys? Melody, 4give, mthrrhbard, forever? Anyone else familiar with my story?

Nid, WAT is 100% right. STOP SNOOPING. It is a waste of time. You know what is going on, so quit pretending like it's not what you already know. Despite what he says, he is having a full blown affair and lies to you all the time. You can't believe a word he says.

You see, there is a huge white elephant in your living room called THE AFFAIR and you are both tip-toeing around it trying to pretend it's not there. It is a big game. You are hanging on every little crumb that he sends you, your desperate hope blinding you to the reality of the elephant.

And he is playing "lets pretend like I am moving out to "think" because I am sooo deeply wounded."

Now, here is what is REALLY HAPPENING. Your H is deeply involved in an AFFAIR and is moving out so he can resume affair unimpeded. Until he can get out of the house, he will talk the talk to keep you somewhat quiet and get you off his back. He knows you will go crazy if you catch him talking to the OW so he will just be slicker in his tactics.

If he talks enough SMACK to you, hopefully he can keep you off his track. Or maybe he can make you feel so guilty when you fail to "prove" what you already know, that he can manipulate you into stopping the snooping out of a misplaced sense of guilt.

That is how it is, NID. You are wasting your time reading something into every little crumb he drops off the table. The man is not committed to your marriage right now and won't be until the affair is over. He is committed to this affair.

The affair will not run its course until he moves out and has an opportunity to see all the warts and baggage of the OW. During that time, you will start Plan B. So while he is getting disgusted and disillusioned with OW, he will start to sorely miss having his needs met by Nid.

In the meantime, STOP PLAYING his sick little game, Nid. It helps in no way to constantly accuse him of what you already KNOW HE IS DOING.

Thanks Melody. Boy, you sure get straight to the point.

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong> Thanks Melody. Boy, you sure get straight to the point.

The thing is, if he leaves me and continues contact with her, I'm not so sure I want him back. My love bank is almost depleted.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yes, please give the note to your H.

Nid, he will be in contact with her when he leaves. I promise you this. I am not saying this to hurt you, but you have to prepare yourself for this reality. He has not ended contact.

You have no reason to believe he will end contact when he is not living with you when he REFUSES to end it when he is living with you.

And yes, I know your love bank is depleted. You are running on empty. That is the purpose of Plan B, to protect whatever remaining feelings you have while the affair plays out.

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Nid,

MelodyLane is right on target in her response to you. By placating you with these morsels he drops every now and then, he is making his life very comfortable while watching you cling desperately to your marriage. You see, as long as he is in the house with you and no one of real consequence knows about the A, he gets everything he wants without having to deal with the ugly consequences of destroying his family and his marriage. It's to his benefit to string you along. All that talk about not hurting you is garbage, pure and simple. The only one he doesn't want to hurt right now is himself.
You are worried that if he moves out and is with her that you may not want him back. I think that if you go to Plan B now, you can protect your love for him. If he is truly repentant, and you will know, then you will decide if you are able to take him back.
Right now, all you are doing is setting yourself up for more pain by being sucked into his bizarre world.

A last note on lovebusting. You said that you didn't think that you had lovebusted. What's important here is that he more than likely sees your snooping as a lovebuster and each time you do that, it makes a withdrawal from you account. Right now, in his eyes, its much easier for you to make withdrawals than deposits. It's very upside down when our WS are in the fog.

Thanks Cleo, you are right about snooping. He told me today he's changing his password on his cell phone account because he's sick of my questioning every little thing he does. He said I don't believe him anyway so whats the point.

I gave him the note from my son and he got angry at me saying he's only repeating what he has heard me say. He says I'm putting our son in the middle of this. I said, "He IS in the middle of this!" He said that all my emotionality and crying is hurting my S and I'm not thinking of him. He said that he didn't do that when he discovered my A. He said, our S didn't know anything about it. I said, "Yeah, well I also chose my family." I know that was a LB, but oh well. I feel like I don't have anything to lose any more, its already gone. He says he loves me but he just doesn't know what he wants to do. He's throwing our M away because he is in pain from my A 5 years ago and the aftermath of it.

He said I don't want him to leave because I'm afraid he won't come back. He said no matter what happens, he'll always care for me. Needless to say, I felt no comfort in that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong> Thanks Cleo, you are right about snooping. He told me today he's changing his password on his cell phone account because he's sick of my questioning every little thing he does. He said I don't believe him anyway so whats the point.

. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. If he were innocent he would be trying to prove it, rather than punishing you for questioning him. Shame on you, Nid, for not trusting an untrustworthy person!

He's too eager to punish you for things that are his fault. He's deflecting blame onto you. My H did this to me during his A. When the blame is put on you, it becomes YOUR burden to prove that you are worthy. It's a very clever tactic by the WS, whether they do it intentionally or not.
The truth here is that your A 5 years ago did not cause him to do this. He uses that as a convenient and manipulative excuse. He knows very well the pain that it caused and he made a conscious decision to begin, pursue and maintain an A with this OW. The decision was all his. When the A is over, he will realize the truth in that.

Hello,

I think you need to ask him to go and not wait til the end of the month. Your Plan A has had whatever effect it is going to have. I do not believe that continuing for another week or so is going to make any difference, except to drain your love bank even further and that's a dangerous thing for a marriage. Afterall, what's he waiting on?

By asking him to go you get the upper hand and that's where it should be, with the sane partner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He said I don't want him to leave because I'm afraid he won't come back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this really true? Personally, I was more afraid of living with a lying, cheating, fool than having him leave and not come back. If he leaves there is at least a chance that he'll learn a valuable lesson. If he stays and finally gives up his A, he gets to mope about it and recovery gets drawn out and it's just that much harder for the both of you. If he leaves and gets to see firsthand what he's giving up, I think there is a greater liklihood of lasting long term recovery with a lesser chance of a repeat offense.

I honestly think it's time for you to be proACTIVE now.

I agree with Mthrrhbard...why continue to be reactive? What good is Plan A for another week going to do?

Why not take control back..show him that he's not only one who can make decisions and give him a Plan B letter now?

If anyone disagrees with this please give specific reasons you think it'd be a bad idea for her to give the Plan B letter to him now.

I also don't agree with the advise to stop snooping. Snooping made me feel a tiny bit better..so many things were out of my control, he was so good at deflecting things back on me...giving rational explanations. The snooping and proof made me feel a little less crazy.

I would also hire the PI...now! Why you might ask...because so far there is no irrefutable proof to hit him with...nothing he can't "rationalize/explain away" (at least to his satisfaction). Pictures of the two of them together, taped conversations...those are hard even for a fog bound/temporarily insane person to deny.

My H did the exact same things her H is doing...he deflected, he blamed, he found somewhat logical excuses/explanations..he didn't stop until I had him cornered with hard proof and didn't let up on him.

My H has been trying to tell you all the same things...he was crazy...last thing he needed me to do was to buy into his craziness and allow his behaviour to continue.

Forever, you confronted the OW, right?

I really want to send her an email. I know everyone will tell me not to. But if there is something still going on between them, don't you think she would be upset by the fact that my H has been telling me he does love me and he has been SHOWING (very intimate, a lot!)me he loves me? Perhaps he has been lying to her too. I just want that b**** to know that our M is not over, that my H wouldn't be with me if he wanted her. Am I stupid?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by forevertogether:
[QB]

I also don't agree with the advise to stop snooping. Snooping made me feel a tiny bit better..so many things were out of my control, he was so good at deflecting things back on me...giving rational explanations. The snooping and proof made me feel a little less crazy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But as you can see, it is not having that effect here. It IS making her crazy. She doesn't need to snoop to find out what she ALREADY KNOWS but doesn't want to accept. It is doing nothing but upsetting her and antagonizing the situation. Snooping is usually a good policy, but not when there is NO REASON to snoop.

What about the email, Melody?

I am still thinking on that one. On one hand I think it is a good idea, but do you want her to rub your nose in it if/when your H moves out? You would be setting yourself up for that.

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I really think that you should ask him to leave now, though. Are you thinking about mthrrbards suggestion?