</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong> Melody, did you read both of my last posts or only the first one? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid, yes I did read the second one after I wrote my post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong>He said he will never tell anyone of our past problems, but will take the "rap" upon himself and leave me out of it when people begin to ask what is going on.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think that is the least he can do since he is 100% responsible for the affair, regardless of past problems. You were both 50% responsible for the state of the marriage, but he is entirely responsible for the affair and separation. I am glad he has agreed to leave you out of it, especially since any past problems do not justify an affair.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I seriously believe that he does have his own personal issues to resolve and it may not have to do with OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't doubt this for a single minute. This is true for most WS who are in their core, good men, but find themselves stumbling. Their A's are out of character for who they have been most of their lives. They are truly hurting and confused. I totally get you on this issue. Remember though going to church doesn't make someone anymore of a Christian or a Moslem ( insert religion of preference) than sleeping in your garage makes you a Chevy. It's a relationship with God that changes lives and marriages, not just the practicing of religious rules, guidelines and traditions. Be very careful.

To elaborate on this a little more from a personal perspective I left the "religion" of my childhood and youth to allow my FWS to be the spiritual leader in our household. Our family has now been worshiping at a non denominational Christian church since H and I first began our marital recovery. My H is a changed man. He loves and serves his Lord. It's nothing short of a miracle. God has rewarded my obedience greatly. However, none of this happened until my H repented, truly having a change of mind and not just feelings and. I hope and pray your H is on his way to such a place with God.

I haven't finished my thoughts but must go. I work tomorrow, hopefully I'll get back here by early evening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by forevertogether:
<strong> I agree with Mthrrhbard...why continue to be reactive? What good is Plan A for another week going to do?

Why not take control back..show him that he's not only one who can make decisions and give him a Plan B letter now?

If anyone disagrees with this please give specific reasons you think it'd be a bad idea for her to give the Plan B letter to him now.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the only specific reason needed:

YOU CAN'T DO PLAN B UNDER THE SAME ROOF!!!

Period. Absolute. No debate. No question. Forget it!!!

Is that specific enough?????????

If a couple jointly owns a home or jointly is on a lease, a BS can ask or compell a WS to leave, but CANNOT make a WS leave without some legal action. Giving a Plan B letter to a WS expecting that he/she will then comply and leave is naive. What if the WS won't leave? Where does that leave the Plan B letter and the Plan B strategy?? Completely undermined, that's where.

The best a BS can hope for in this situation is to allow the WS to leave or ask the WS to leave and THEN give the Plan B letter. Even then, if the WS wants to come home, nothing prevents it. That's why the perfect situation is for the WS to leave, for the BS to have a legal separation document, and THEN go to Plan B. This puts the BS in control. It was the WS's decision to separate - now it's the BS's decision to STAY separated until the Plan B conditions are met.

OK, poster formerly know as nid, today is March 22 - only nine days until the end of the month. Not a long time. I bet there'll be a few ball games during this time, huh?

Here's my suggestion, which the ticking of the clock is making more and more the only choice with each passing second, because you're so close to his self imposed timeline.

I suggest you conduct yourself as IF he's moving out at the end of the month. Pristine Plan A while planning for his departure.

Ask him how you'll split up the bills?

Ask him how much he needs to live on?

Ask him how he wants to handle custody of your son?

Ask him if he's going to get a new phone number or just use his cell phone?

If you don't have your own, tell him you need to get your own cell phone.

Type out all important contact information about your son - doctor's phone number, school phone number, friend's home phone numbers, etc., etc., etc. - and give it to him in case he needs this info.

Get some boxes for him to pack some things in.

And now the kicker - ask him for a forwarding address!!!!

Do you see what I'm driving at?????

Maybe you've already covered some of these things. But start making plans for the move to happen. Cover these things again if needed. Communicate to him that yuo're planning on him to follow up on his plans.

He's stated he's leaving. You've stated your feelings that you don't want him to leave. Your son has done the same. Nonetheless, he still sats he's leaving.

So plan on it.

Up the ante. Put the ball in his court.

You could ask him to leave today to get him out the sooner the better for your own sanity.

But this only buys you 9 days.

Why not hold him to his threats? Why not take charge and hold him accountable for his statements? I'll bet you'll find this logic somewhere between the covers of Dobson's book.

This puts the onus squarely on his shoulders to follow through with his "needs", either to find himself or be with OW. Whatever the reason, it HAS to happen.

Put up or shut up.

Sure, you can ask him to leave today.

He won't.

He may even use that against you - "she tried to MAKE me leave - hurting our son!!"

Instead, give him all the rope he needs. In effect, show him the door.

He wants you to either,

1. kick him out so he can claim you're the instigator of the separation, or

2. grovel and cry and plead and accuse him of affairs and fight and argue and generally make your home a miserable place - so he's justified in leaving on his own.

My rambling point here is to put ALL the responsibility and justification manufacturing on HIS back. He said he was gonna leave - don't stop him and don't try to prevent him - just hold him to it. You can't go on in this limbo.

Then, guess what?

March 31 comes and he's not ready to leave. I'll predict right here and now that he won't. Maybe I'll be wrong. If he doesn't, you lay down the law. You prepared for it, you were willing to give him his space, you did all you could to allow this with the hopes that it would help recover youy marriage.

And now he's not going?

OK, then DON'T go and let's get down to business on fixing this family. Make him tell his son that he's NOT going.

Oh, he isn't sure whether he should or not? He isn't sure if he should still go or stay?

Then YOU take control and issue an ultimatum. He either goes or stays - on your terms. You're getting an attorney (wish you had already taken this step) and getting a legal separation and then he'll HAVE to go or he joins you in whatever plan you have for rebuilding.

Of course, he might leave. Then Plan B.

WAT

Nid...yes he has personal issues that need to be dealt with outside of you and the OW. He doesn't need to move out to deal with those!

We all do...in order to recover my H and I had to deal with our personal issues and our marital issues.

My personal issues were that because of my horrible childhood in order to feel safe I needed to control things and people. I also held people to very high expectations. I dealt with these issues in IC.

My H was a passive agressive and a conflict avoider...he also had this great ability to not only delude me but himself. Our IC said it all starts with the ability to be honest with yourself. He had to deal with these.

In our M we had to learn to communciate in a healthy manner. She taught us the mirroring technique. We also had to work out a balanced M and partnership. We had to spend more time together (we were devoted to our kids a little too much). We had to meet each others EN's.

So yes your H needs to work on his personal issues but he wouldn't move out to deal with just those. He is moving out to try things out with the OW.

As for your friends never letting them have a open relationship...you are kidding yourself! Look around you...how many people do you know who are divorced and now with someone else who is now accepted in the circle. It's horrible but true. One of our "good" friends even helped my H to contact the OW behind my back. I later confronted him and he said he was uncomfortable with this but he was my H's friend too!!! Needless to say he is no longer our friend.

Our old couple best friends had a great M, then they had a child and he started chatting with someone over the internet ended up having an A and leaving his wife and newborn son to be with her. At first noone would have anything to do with the OW but pretty soon (couple of months) the OW had taken over his wife's spot in the circle.

Now..as for knowing your H better then the rest of us...WAKE UP GIRL...you don't know this guy who is temporarily insane and in a fog!!! You know the guy you were M to pre-A!

I have been with my H since we were 18...we were M almost 20 years before the A. We knew each other inside out...good and not so good stuff. We were close, we had a good M...we were the envy of our family and friends. We spent 90-95 % of our time together (he's a stay at home dad and I work from home office). He was and is a good guy. I could always tell when he occasionally lied to me or withheld truth about something.

He has always completely shared child duties, he cooks, he cleans, he could always be very romantic, he was affectionate to me, always willing to help someone when they needed it, believed in God, good citizen,etc, etc.

However...he went through a period of temporary insanity and did horrible things...he betrayed me, himself, his kids, his God...he lied, he cheated. He deceived. I am a smart woman, I knew him really well...I have great gut instincts, I work from home, he's a stay at home dad..OW was next door neighbor and close friend. He did this right under my nose!!!

Yes, my gut was going off but first several weeks they were going off because OW was going through a M crisis and getting to depend a little too much on my H and I knew that when a woman goes through something like that...they can easily cross the line. I warned him repeatedly but by then it was too late...I was worried that something MIGHT happen...I didn't worry that something might have already happened until just a week or so prior to dday.

Prior to dday (and shortly after A started) I knew that he wasn't happy with me...told me the old ILYBNILWY. He got my focus on me and my issues which took focus off what he was doing.

After dday when he told me he would go NC and work on our M..I was worried but I believed him. When he told me that all they had done was kiss...at first I believed him. Then when shock started to wear off a little my brain was registering this doesn't make sense.

When I would question this man that I knew as well as I knew myself...he would look into my eyes when I was begging him for the truth and tell me...honey I can see how badly you need the truth...I wouldn't lie to you about something that is so important to you. But he was lying!!

Two days after dday he broke NC and called her to check on her. Lied about that. 3 days after dday she broke NC and waylaid him on his way to work out. I was scared too death everytime he was out of my sight would sink into a trance where I would just sit and watch for him while shaking uncontrollably... He would come home find me a basket case and would hold me and reassure me that he wouldn't hurt me like that again that he was strong..he wouldn't break the NC...Again lying.

Now was he a master manipulator and liar pre A....NO!!!!! He was a good honest man. He couldn't stand liars, couldn't stand people who cheated.

An A changes people...the good ones only temporarily.

My point to all this is that you are starting to sound like you are in a FOG. You can not rely on what you used to know about him...he is not that person right now, he won't be until he ends the A and goes NC.

You have to be strong right now...you can't fool yourself, like he is fooling himself!!!

You have to be prepared to go PLAN B. He is wavering right now..maybe if he knows that things aren't going to go his way after he moves out that might give him second thoughts.

I gave my H plenty to think about while he was deciding whether to stay or go.

Your H is on the fence now...give him something to think about that will get him off that fence!

Call the Harley's ask them whether you should tell him that when he moves out that you are going Plan B (that might scare him enough to not move out) or whether you should wait until he moves out to give him the letter. Whatever you do..you can't break the PLAN B or make exceptions once you go there.

Right now in his world he will move out...see how that feels, see how it feels being with OW and know that you are there to fall back on if it doesn't work out with OW. Again...typical cake eating mentality.

Would he be willing to email my H off line?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why the perfect situation is for the WS to leave, for the BS to have a legal separation document, and THEN go to Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT, I just received some legal advice from my sister's friend who is a lawyer. She said there is no such thing as a legal separation in our state. You have to file for D if you want to make any temporary support arrangements. I'm not ready to file for D, so I need to just let it go for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for your friends never letting them have a open relationship...you are kidding yourself! Look around you...how many people do you know who are divorced and now with someone else who is now accepted in the circle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our friends were actually discussing the rampantness of divorce and separations and how awful it is to have to deal with not just for the kids but for all their mutual friends, etc. I just sat there and listened in silence. They made it clear they don't like it. All our friends seem to have very stable M's, but I guess you never know. That was one of their points, you think you know people and think highly of them and then you find out all this dirt and it makes everyone uncomfortable. So, I'm not so sure that our friends would so willingly accept this especially since they all know OW! They would be disgusted.

In the middle of the night last night, my H woke up and told me, "Don't you know I don't want to leave you?" Then he kissed me and went back to sleep snuggled up next to me. His true feelings always come out this way. He has always woken up in the past and told me he loves me. He truly is confused about himself and what he is done. I'm pretty sure he is pulling way away from OW.

When he moves out, I am going to go through with the PI just to see if this is truly about him only. If he is still in contact with OW, I will give him my Plan B letter.

As usual, my H and I talked last night. He said he wants me to have peace of mind that this isn't about OW. He said he is so screwed up right now from the past 5 years of our M. He asked me if he moved in with his mom would that help, instead of getting his own apt. He also said he would call me every night so I know where he is.

He seems so depressed lately. Do you think he is going through withdrawal? I'm just trying to be as supportive as I can right now. If he moves in with his mom, I'm not sure plan B would be the right thing for us.

My s told him last night that he didn't want him to go. I think that is really getting to him.

What do you think about him choosing to live with his mom? He doesn't even really get along that well with her. She will drive him nuts in no time.

maybe after she drives him nuts, he will realize how good you have been to him...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Either that, or he will decide to get his own place. I don't know, I just want to be here for him, he seems so confused about who he is. I want to help him since I obviously didn't do a good job of that before.

If it's not about OW and about him being so screwed up why isn't he in IC?

Why does he need to leave home to get his head screwed back on? Why would being with him mom (who he doesn't get along with) help him more then being home?

Have you really had a detailed conversation about him?? Without you coming up??

Meaning...have you asked him in detail how he felt about your A? How he tried to deal with it? What he hasn't dealt with about it? Asked him how he feels about the state of your M before either A? About what he feels now? About what he wants in life? About what's important to him? About if he was able to draw his perfect picture or life what would it look like? About how he feels about himself after having an A? About how he feels about himself with continuing to talk to OW? I'm sure you are getting the picture.

These types of talks helped my H tremendously..it also helped to get me to a state where I could feel empathy for him...not just focus on my misery.

Him moving out isn't the answer...it never is!

Push him to do something before resorting to that..call with Harley's...IC..something...ask him what could it hurt????

ditto forevertogether - and cleo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with your logic on not going to Plan B if he moves in with his Mom - assuming you're above E on your love tank. But you should have a letter ready to fire the moment ANY evidence of continuation of the affair is detected.

BUT - what's your relationship with Mom? Does she know the WHOLE score? Would she snitch to you on her baby if she suspected he was seeing OW?

Does your cell phone bill provide an itemized list of calls?

If he's REALLY interested in fixing himself and there's no more affair - he should agree to write a no contact letter. Period. If he won't, this speaks volumes to me.

The "live with Mom" thing is marginally better than living someplace else, but doesn't really mean anything regarding the status of the affair.

What became of the limited exposure? Please see Heroswife's post about exposure. She's now a believer.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If it's not about OW and about him being so screwed up why isn't he in IC?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something he has decided to do, forever. I asked him when, he said he will do it soon. He said right now he is taking one day at a time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why does he need to leave home to get his head screwed back on? Why would being with him mom (who he doesn't get along with) help him more then being home?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I don't really understand except that he wants to avoid our arguing in front of our S. I have told him that our arguements stem from his leaving, but he doesn't really see this. Plus, he is unwilling to commit to anything and he sees staying as doing that. I can't get through to him on this one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you really had a detailed conversation about him?? Without you coming up??

Meaning...have you asked him in detail how he felt about your A? How he tried to deal with it? What he hasn't dealt with about it? Asked him how he feels about the state of your M before either A? About what he feels now? About what he wants in life? About what's important to him? About if he was able to draw his perfect picture or life what would it look like? About how he feels about himself after having an A? About how he feels about himself with continuing to talk to OW? I'm sure you are getting the picture.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, we have, a lot. Apparently he never really regained trust because he was always looking for signs that I was having an A again. I never did anything to warrant such suspicion, but I think he said I stopped being proactive after a while and I expected him to just get over it and move on. I, on the other hand, felt like he was constantly punishing me and would hold it over my head forever. We just never knew how to deal with it. I didn't give him what he needed and he reacted to me in such a way that I began to close myself off to him, protection mode, you know. We have discussed all this and part of his whole problem is that I didn't start caring about our M until OW came in the picture, which I guess is true. I had become content with our life and wasn't trying to improve our M, even though it needed a lot of work. And a lot of times when we talk, he says "All I hear is ME, you're making this about YOU again and how you feel! Its about ME and MY FEELINGS." So I guess this is where I have been going wrong.

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

Your H sounds so much like mine did my jaw just drops open when I read some of your posts.

One thing I am pretty much 100% certain of is that, his A, is stemming from more of a MLC than his not being able to deal with your A (although I'm sure this is a huge part of his emotional hurt). He's avoiding counseling because then he'd have to admit the real problems and look inside and do some difficult, most likely, painful work to get out of the hole he's dug for himself. Do not dismiss the MLC "theory" due to the fact that your H is in his thirties. In the 4 1/2 years that I've posted the avg age of WS is about 35-40. In the incredibly competitive and fast paced world we live in, in this country, we're stressing about things sooner than our parents and grandparents did (heaven help our kids!). My H was in just about the same mental state as your H, questioning how to be "happy". He wanted to make sure that he was making a final, uninfluenced decision about which life path was going to bring him the most satisfaction and happiness. He honestly did this. He gave up OW, went to IC and moved out of our house.

I see your H saying the same things my H did but not acting in the way a sincere man saying those things would act. Examples.... You keep finding out about contact with OW. He's gotten sneakier about contact with OW. He used the info about "redial" against you, to allow him to get sneakier by using a calling card. Do you think it stops there? He's not overly concerned with your emotional health, he wants his cake and eat it too, cuz he's not really making firm plans to go and finally get himself figured out(and "yes" let him go to his mom's).Finally he's "taking things one day at a time" and not getting himself into counseling.........what's he stalling for? THIS IS TORTURE FOR YOU (isn't it?)(and what about your son, sitting on pins and needles wondering if and when he'll ever go or not). If this didn't have anything to do with OW, if he didn't have that distraction, if it really is just all about him and him alone, it's my opinion that he'd be acting differently. Having said that, I do think there is a high liklihood that he is depressed and that is what is causing some of his inability to act/decide/chose. That coupled with the fact that he's had no real consequences to deal with, make him stay comfortable taking things "one day at a time", all at you and your son's expense.

This "need" he has to find himself is not going to go away. It may be able to be put on the back burner, or swept under the rug for some time, but it will rear it's ugly head again somewhere down the road if he doesn't get an honest opportunity to chose. The experience of living without your family is way more enlightening than anything the imagination can create. There are nuances of that experience that a WS never even thinks of in the fog. (WAT isn't your X experiencing some of that even now?) It is my very humble opinion that you would be doing your H, yourself and your son a diservice by not insisting H has some time alone to figure himself out. Not all separations hurt, some are very helpful.

I think how you chose to respond to him, if and when he goes, all depends on what efforts he's making. If OW is gone(for sure)then that's one thing, if not, then that demands a different response from a spouse. All the best!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BUT - what's your relationship with Mom? Does she know the WHOLE score? Would she snitch to you on her baby if she suspected he was seeing OW?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I missed your post WAT. He does not want to tell his mom the whole score because that would involve telling her what has led to his state, namely, my A. He said he doesn't want her to know that. She and I are not close, but do get along. I definitely do not see us confiding about what he is doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does your cell phone bill provide an itemized list of calls?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, he sees it all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he's REALLY interested in fixing himself and there's no more affair - he should agree to write a no contact letter. Period. If he won't, this speaks volumes to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So should I ask him to do this for me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What became of the limited exposure? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not too much really, except that he's gotten some good advice and a dose of reality from a friend of ours. As for the board pres., he isn't going to do anything unless I ask him to. Not sure yet what action to take there. Once I have a PI check out if he is continuing, I will decide what to do with that. If they are seeing eachother, I will ask him to confront them and ask them to step down. He will. He also said they will not be returning next year.

A good analysis, mthrrhbard. (I can spell your name correctly using copy and paste.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>(WAT isn't your X experiencing some of that even now?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be honest, I have no idea what she's experiencing - but knowing the dolt she married, I'll stake claim to me having better experiences than she is!

I really don't think there's much in common between my WS and nid's. Not to hijack this thread, my WS, I believe, was desperately seeking a new "family" to replace the one "cheapened" by the loss of a child. OM and his children were a ready made surrogate, she perceived, to create the facade of a new, perfect little family so that she could re-establish her image of herself as the perfect Mom.

Can you say "narcissist"?

OM was her convenient idiot and OM's wife was merely expendable, collateral damage.

Fortunately, only the youngest of OM's three children fell for it, but that one plus my son - who didn't want to fault his Mom, leaving her with NO children - and marrying OM and taking his name has provided her with her storefront of a "family" - on the surface, completely intact. Time will work its wonders, I believe.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong>He does not want to tell his mom the whole score because that would involve telling her what has led to his state, namely, my A. He said he doesn't want her to know that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bull crap.

He doesn't want her to know about HIS affair!!!!!!

Did you read heroswife's thread on exposure the way I asked you to?

You can end this all today by exposure to his Mom and by asking the board pres. to fire both of them.

But I know you won't.

Make a liar out of me, please?????

On the cell phone question, I meant can you see his calls itemized to detect calls to OW? - or is this what the calling card prevents?

WAT

Yes, only the calling card number shows up. Then I notice an incoming call soon or directly after. He said she is not calling him back. Not sure I believe that, although its possible because she told me she wants out of the middle of all this.

I want to make you a liar WAT, but I really need to think this through. And I'd really like to make sure if she is still in the picture or not first. Make sense?

Yes, that makes sense.

That's why I was asking about detecting cell phone calls.

But still, there's no reason for him to resist sending a NC letter - unless either there's still contact or he thinks that a platonic friendship can be established.

WAT

I think he feels that because they are both on the board there is an occasional need to talk. I asked him to do this via email only. He hasn't. I honestly think he's more of the pursuer here and maybe become very dependent upon her for advice, hmmm...won't ever really know if that's all, will I? He did say he had no problem taking a polygraph test. Should I pursue that? Where do you do that?

WHY ARE YOU WAITING TO FIND OUT IF CONTACT IS CONTINUING???????????

Please or please give us a good answer for this one. Why won't you hire the PI now.

Aren't you able to see how many WS's need a strong wake up call to start coming out of the fog????

So far nothing in your plan is giving that call to your H...you are actually ENABLING his behaviour!!!

Please stop doing this before it is too late.

You need to make a stand on his moving out...he is feeding you hogwash....you are a smart lady..you know it's bull...we understand why you WANT to believe it but not WHY you are accepting it.

Do a poll if it will help...ask everyone on this site an in recovery...if they were able to get to recover without some sort of wake up call for the WS.

IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!

You have to stop playing his game...I'll say this once again...HE IS TEMPORARILY INSANE!!! Crazy people shouldn't be making life altering decisions like this. By his own admission he's falling apart.

HIRE THAT PI TODAY...IF HE'S SEEING HER STILL, WHICH WE ALL KNOW HE IS....ASK HIM TO LEAVE AND GIVE HIM THE PLAN B LETTER!!!