Wow. What an interesting day yesterday was.

WH called at 11:35 in the morning and invited me to lunch. Came and got me, and we went to sushi. We are waiting for the food, and he tells me we should have gotten it to go. i said why, and he said he didn't think we could talk in there.

I told him we didn't have to talk about R, that we could just be there as friends. So, he starts talking about R.

He says he wants D. I reminded him that at MC on Tuesday he said we would work on M. He goes, "Yeah, just to see where this R is going, but not that I want to stay married! And you have hope, and that bothers me. I want D."

So I only ate about 3 pieces of my sushi sashimi combination that cost $15! Totally sucks a** because it is my favorite shushi place!

So, the argument continues in the car.

The boys had early release from school for Spring Break. Youngest was getting off the bus at 2, and I was picking oldest up at Middle school at 2 from tennis. The weather is nice here, so I had my front window open.

The argument continues in the house. WH tells me that at the beginning of last year, when he began having feelings for the HW (homewrecker), that he wished I was dead so he could be with her with no guilt, or that I would D him.

Nice.

Well, our new neighbor called the cops. At 1:20 they come pounding on the door. Domestic disturbance, verbal.

Nice.

First for me and H.

Then last night I called him after he put the boys to bed. And we hashed it out for over an hour until he hung up on me. His maturity is shocking.

I guess we are still going to MC on Tuesday. I can hardly believe he is ever going to change his mind. I think he thinks of me like an annoying smelly piece of sh** that is stuck to the bottom of his shoe.

I don't even know if I want to be with someone who wished the mother of their children was dead so they had the possibility to be with a sl** bit** who**.

That's my story.

SS

Yikes, so much for Plan A, no LB's or DJ's. What is wrong with these guys? It just shows how selfish they can be.

We almost had the cops at my house when my WH decided he was gonna move back in right before Christmas. I called them and told them there was gonna be a domestic disturbance. The nice officer told me to go immediately to court to keep him out.

But you know WS's have thought disturbances. When my WH got his girlfriend, he had it in his mind that I would just move out and she could move in. And I almost did move out to give him some space. Then I figured out his "plan".

They do see us as an obstacle in the way of their fantasy. Look at Scott Peterson. He figured all he had to do was get rid of his wife and unborn son and everything would be great. He even told his girlfriend that his wife had died - and that was before he killed her! Creepy.

Yes all this is very creepy. I told my mom like a month or so ago that I can't believe that you can live with someone for 10 years and not really know them at all. Some people live with their H or W for years and find out they are rapists or murderers.

SS

I am here for you. You can call me anytime. You have my number. And they are right, it is just fog talk. My H never mistreated me until he me OW, then he was very rude and short with me. The changes in him are unbelieveable. He is a totally different person. I think your WH is having withdrawals from OW and he is thinking that D will make him feel better. I bet you money that when he feels better he will tell you that he never really wanted you to die. You are the mother of his children, who would they have? He didn't think things through when he said that. Does OW BF know about her and WH? Does he know that she is a homewrecker?
Just wondering how BF feels about them being friends still?

NY

Spidey,

Hate to do this to you...because I know you're hurting....but somebody needs to get you back on track here. Somewhere between your explanation of what happened yesterday and the cops coming to the door, something was lost in translation!!! YIKES! The description you gave isn't very compatible with the screaming LB fest that likely encouraged the neighbors to call the cops ya know??? It is also incredibly damaging to your boys. So....he said he was wishing you would die...nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> And you said? You mentioned this was a "first" and by that I think you mean the cops....what about the screaming argument? Is this possibly one of things that made your marriage vulnerable to an affair....the way the two of you deal with conflict? Or is this sort of thing rare?

Here's the deal...you are a smart lady, so you know what Plan A is about....offering an ATTRACTIVE alternative to the affair. MCing doesn't do that. And fighting sure doesn't. Plan A does. If this situation is too volatile to do a good Plan A....believe me, you are better off doing a Plan B where the two of you can't continue to destroy your love for eachother.

We've all been there...we know how INCREDIBLY heartless and hurtful the fogspeak can be, so if you find that you are losing it...you have got to be able to separate yourself from that conversation before conflict erupts and the LB carnival begins. "I'm sorry H, but when you say things that hurtful...I feel so bad that I'm likely to answer in kind...so I'm just going to leave now".

The attitude that he "needed to hear" the aos djs etc. and continuing this argument by phone (especially when you'd been drinking) is ludicrous. You are capable (though the timing was obviously wrong) of expressing your hurt, shock, anger in ways that will not escalate to verbal abuse. And if he escalates things...you need to remove yourself before you act the same way.

Also, as turtlehead and others mentioned...it's far to early in this process to be using the D word. Recommit and regroup or consider Plan B if you find that your love for husband is in danger of being completely destroyed.

So let's backtrack a little....and think about where you were in your marriage when this other relationship intruded. Talk about the "state" of your marriage. Talk about the things that may have made your marriage vulnerable. Where is all of this anger coming from? Is it all about the affair, or has this been festering for years? What kind of destructive patterns did you see in your marriage that existed before the affair?

SS...I'll join in with Kiwij as a FWW here. Your H needs some serious help!!! I don't think that you will find many people here more obsessed with OM than I was. He must have some serious issues here than have been there even before the A, he's just taking them out on you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !! I went through a very "hateful" time during and after the A myself. I unleashed on OM though!! Your H is going to have grow up a little bit in my opinion and take responsibility for his actions not blame them on you!!! I'm sorry that he said the things to you that he did. I do have to say that one part of your thread was "priceless" referring to the sushi lunch and the waste of $15 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You do seem to still have a bit of a sense of humor here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Don't worry so much about the cop thing either...neighbors get used to it after a while.

We're regulars anymore, I think. Started with when WH was cycle riding and wasn't home by 1am last fall--I was worried about him being on a country road dead somewhere because he wasn't returning cell calls. So I called in the cops to help, in case they could put out a report on him. In our suburb, they have to show up at your house to take the report. Did this two different times.

Of course little did I know it was because he was already having an E/A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Then we had our major blowup in December when I called 911 (partly because I was afraid and partly because I was so angry and all the cursewords in the world weren't enough). That was fun (not!).

Now in the last three weeks I've filed a missing person's report and a runaway report on my DD. They have to show up to file the report, and they have to show up again to make sure DD really is okay when she shows up.

So, I think the neighbors just roll their eyes at this point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Seriously, I am praying for you. Prayed last night. My WH has never vocalized what yours did about wanting you gone, but I suspect he's hoped it (and I've even worried about it because he is an auto tech and could do something to my car and no one would know). I think they totally lose their mind in this stuation. And it does hurt.

Maybe if you two do go to MC, even though it probably won't do a lot yet toward rebuilding anything, at least you can speak in a controlled environment with a mediator.

LL

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Thank you all for your input and support.

star*fish -

First, the boys did not hear any of this stuff. Neither he nor I allow that.

Second, and you are not going to like this, our new MC encourages us to hash things out. MC thinks we should both get upset and mad and sad and experience all those emotions with each other.

I don't know. You asked some very good, yet hard to answer questions. I have discovered I am married to an extreme conflict avoider. I really did not know that until now.

But he doesn't avoid ALL conflict. It actually felt good to get him talking to me again. The affair is over. But he still has feelings for her. So, he thinks that he has none for me.

WH wants D. In Idaho, it is no fault. If he files, there's not much I can do. I was not expecting him to drop that bomb in public.

I did really good about the LB's, but it didn't matter what I did or said, he made it negative. I would smile and nod at him, and he accused me of having a "holier than thou" look on my face.

I would say, "I understand your concern" and he would tell me that I didn't, that all I thought about was myself. I couldn't win.

When we got home, I ran in my room to get away from him, and he followed me in there. Asked me if I was going to run away or talk this thing out. WH also told me that I never tell him romantic reasons why I want him back. Like caressing his face, and stuff like that. He goes, "You never tell me you miss that stuff. You just talk about money and kids and stuff if we D." So I told him all that stuff. I read him the email I had written to him that morning but not sent, filled with romance wishes.

WH and I both have voices that carry. His co-workers have told him that in meetings, he sounds like he is yelling, but he's not.

We really were not screaming at each other. The woman who called the cops said she heard a woman scream (which was me crying), and crying (which was both of us crying). We were actually hugging when the cops showed up - after he disclosed the "wish you would die" thoughts he started having a year ago.

I told the cops that we had had much louder discussions over the years, and nobody ever called the cops. WH and I shared a chuckle about that when they left.

I don't know. Maybe WH needs to get some stuff off his chest to me. I think we'll save the rest for MC on Tuesday.

We hadn't talked for so long, that I think we didn't know where to start. To be honest, I don't remember much of what we talked about on the phone last night. I must have gotten pretty beligerent for him to hang up on me, unfortunately. I have not called him before, EVER, since he moved out except boys or finances - if it was too urgent to do by email. I allowed myself, and I regret it.

Basically, he is in love with a woman who doesn't love him. I'm not telling her BF crap! He keeps her away from my WH! He's dated her before. I'm sure he knows what kind of woman she is, which is probably why he is back for more.

I'll have to wait until Tuesday to see if there was damage done, or if some of the wheels in his head are turning.

SS

SS,

Affairs and recovery are messy...and conflict is a necessary part of finding solutions and rebuiding compatibility. Honesty often causes conflict...and conflict avoiders are a particular challenge. So I am not disagreeing with your MC. Confrontation is a HUGE part of Plan A...one of the four basics. Confront him with your feelings and pain. Confront him with the consequences of his actions. Confront him with the damage this does to his children. (all without LBs of course) But one of the ground rules has got to be safety. So if you find that things are getting too emotional or it's turning ugly...do your best to get things back on track so that all of this conflict can yield results. If you can't insure emotional and physical safety...then it's time to stop talking until you can. Otherwise...it's a waste of time and energy...right? Believe me....I'm not suggesting you just shut up and be nice....PUKE!!! Nope...but make this productive rather than destructive...and it sound like perhaps some good may come of some of this...huh?

star*fish -

Honestly, I didn't know that conflict was supported on this site. I guess now that I know it is a necessary part of recovery, either for the M or just for myself, I will do better with the LB's.

Since I thought I was blowing MB by having conflict and negative emotions, I just kind-of let go at some points. Like when you eat something off your diet, so you eat more stuff, rather than cutting your losses! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But knowing now that I can do that, I will definately keep the discussions more on track. I didn't know what to do, to be honest. So I didn't really do anything for a long time. Just sat around wondering what to do, waiting for something to happen.

Now WH seems to be more open to talking. Last night when I called him, his voice was warm and welcoming and compassionate. I think he felt bad for sharing the dead thing with me.

Which I think is good. He needs to get some of that crap out of him, so he can feel bad for it, I think.

Thanks for your time and guidance today. I needed it. I honestly don't know where this is going at this point.

WH says he'll never forgive himself, and that the Bible says adultery is an unforgivable sin. I disagree, but that is the way he was brought up.

How do you live with someone who thinks they are going to hell???

SS

SS,

I want to share one of the best essays ever written here about Plan A. It was written by Zorweb who has been absent for too long...and I miss her. It will help define this for you.

((((((((((((((spidey)))))))))))))))


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is some wisdom that I've gathered from different posters and added my thoughts to. Was hoping that might be helpful to those of you struggling with Plan A and love busting.
------------------------------------

Have you read BrambleRose’s post on Plan A… it’s a must read. How to be a doormat in Plan A. It may surprise many BS as to what this means… Being a doormat in Plan A does not mean that the BS has no boundaries and allows the WS to walk all over them.

---------------------------------------------------------
PLAN A

The major mistakes I see in Plan A are:

1) The BS doing nothing to interfere or attempt to break up the affair in acceptable ways.

2) Plan A’ing for too long, to the point that it becomes a lifestyle with great payoff for the WS and little for the BS.

3) Tip toeing around the WS by not telling them how the affair is hurting the BS. Basically acting as though the BS is afraid to upset the WS in any matter. This can lead to great emotional abuse of the BS.

4) The BS does not do Plan A for the WS or for themselves. It is done to break up the affair and begin marital recovery.

5) Totally misunderstanding what is and what is not a love buster and thereby never setting proper boundaries.

While becoming a better, more patient, more loving spouse can be a side affect of plan A, that is not it’s purpose. Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. (Or perhaps to pull a spouse out of deep withdrawal, but that's not your issue right now.) Nothing more, nothing less. Plan A will not save or restore your marriage. It is simply a tool to show your spouse that you recognize the contribution you've made to the deterioration of your M, and that you are willing, able, and determined to change those things.

Plan A is also about meeting needs as much as you feel you can. If you can make love with your H and not go away angry and resentful... go for it!! But if not, then Be pleasant, courteous, thoughtful, respectful. No demands, no disrespect, no losing your temper, no dishonesty, and no doing things that annoy or offend your spouse. (annoying behavior does have a qualifier when there is an A, and we will talk about that too.) Plan A is not about being perfect, being a doormat, or being a perfect doormat!

Plan A can be done in a letter if that is all you can muster. Plan A should have a deadline, as it's not an indefinite lifestyle choice. Most women cannot do Plan A as long as men. Some cannot even do it for a day, the pain of knowing their H is with OW is too great. Most women plan A for about 2-3 weeks, most men for about 6 months. Plan A is not a life style.

When it is said that the BS should do nothing to break up the affair, it’s a bit of a misleading statement. Plan A and Plan B are attempts to break up the affair. Acceptable and unacceptable ways to break up an affair.

It is unacceptable to try breaking up the affair using tactics such as threatening or using violence, stalking either the WS or the OP.

Acceptable ways to put pressure on the affair in Plan A/B:

1) Plan A and then if necessary Plan B.
2) Tell everyone: your parents, his parents, your religious leader, your other loved ones and close friends. Ask for their support in ending the A and saving your marriage.

3) Tell the WS that they are hurting you (the BS) every time there is contact. Do not give the WS the impression that you can get by.

4) Tell the WS that they are offending you grievously, that you are hurt beyond belief and that you are in pain. All of this helps break the shroud of secrecy and protection around the affair. It puts pressure on the affair.

5) Confront the OP. Tell OP that you love your WS and that you want your marriage to survive. Tell OP that he/she is contributing to the destruction of your home and your family. Beyond this do not contact the OP. Do not set up a relationship with them. They are incidental to the problems in your marriage. Given time the affair will almost always end whether or not you and you WS remain together. Affairs are based on fantasy. Tell the OP’s spouse.

6) Tell your children. Yes... tell them. They already know, so give them the gift of honesty.

7) Now, in the interim, there are things you can do. Confront the OW.

8) If your spouse is in the military talk to the Chaplin, their commander, family support and anyone else you can to get support. Their commander can put a lot of pressure on them, change their assignment to interfere with the affair, and so forth. Criminal charges can be filed. And so forth.

This will make the WS angry. The Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply. The marriage has already been breached. Telling is a way of stopping the bleeding so to speak. A way to end the A, to pick of the pieces of the destruction he is wreaking.

Affairs do not survive in the light of day. Doing everything you can to end it is encouraged. Once again, this is against every instinct we have, but it works.

Affairs do not last long when the OP is meeting limited needs and the WS is just having a wonderful time having their cake and eating it too. All the while the BS is.

Plan B is risky. At first it will certainly push the WS into the arms of the lover. But almost all affairs die a natural death. And that is hastened by being exposed to the light of day. Affairs exist and thrive only in secret and in fantasy. Once the harsh realities of life... kids, schedules, finances, laundry (!!) intrude, they lose their appeal.

Soon the arguments set in, withdrawals to the LBnk are made and the A comes to an end.

The time to go to Plan B is when: You are LBing more? Not sleeping well? Poor appetite? Losing your ability to concentrate? These are things that you need to take into account. Plan A is not sustainable indefinitely, and the more your love bank drains, the harder it will be to continue.

The 2 biggest mistakes with Plan B are not going to Plan B in time, and not insisting on the conditions for recovery. NO ONE wants to do Plan B. It goes against every instinct we have. But MB is about going against instincts. Harley says it over and over again on every topic he covers. Doing what our instincts tell us to do only gets us into trouble.

A Plan B letter should be short and to the point. It must include these

1. I love you

2. I married you for life. I want to stay married to you.

3. This thing you are doing is too painful for me to bear; it is destroying the love I have for you.

4. As long as you have contact with this person, I cannot see or speak to you.

5. When this affair ends, I would love to discuss reconciliation and recovery with you.

6. Until then I ask that you not contact me. All issues relating to children/finances/etc should go through____ who is acting as intermediary.

There is so much emphasis on ending the A and plan A, that people lose sight of the fact that ending the A is just one of two equally important parts in rebuilding the M. The second, and probably toughest part, is recovery. If the BS has very little love left for the WS, the recovery part may already be doomed because the BS will not put the sufficient effort to work his/her part and may use the WS's equally lukewarm response as enough proof to jettison the M and head straight to divorce. This is why plan B is an important component to the goal of rebuilding the M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you look at these strategies...you can see that many of them will create conflict...and they are supposed to. How else will the WS face the consequences of his actions? Or be motivated to change? They also clear the air and the fog. So don't be afraid of confrontation....as long as you can remain in control. If you are just gunny sacking this stuff and trying to be a nice little wifey....an gasket will blow!! You are doing better than you know.

My H also struggles with guilt. After his second affair...one of the conditions I required to work on our marriage again was that he had to go to confession. He did...and the priest would not absolve him...omg...you can't not imagine what it did to this man. It put him on his knees...but you know what? It also made him realize that he was risking more than just our marriage. He was also risking his soul. Time has healed this...and your husband will heal too.

Actually if he really read the bible, adultery is in it. It is actually quite a spicy love story at times I have found.

NY

Thank you, star*fish. Great post.

Thanks NY. I know, he is a freak.

SS

Hey. Well, no more updates. I think WH probably still wants D. I'll know more today if he goes to work and sends me any emails.

Otherwise, I'll probably just talk to him at MC on Tuesday.

He is not willing to work on anything. I can't make him. Maybe he needs to D before he can move on either way.

I don't have much hope for us at this point. I am wondering why I would even want to.

Inspiration? Wisdom?

SS

SS - Hang in there. There are a lot of downs before the ups. Lots of people here have completely given up before WS comes back.

Changed the title of my thread, just in case you-know-who is lurking.

I have no idea what is going to happen. I have no idea what I want.

I will pray so hard about all of this. I need to turn it over to Him.

SS

I just remembered something else WH said to me in the car on the way home from sushi. When I told him I was willing to be a better wife, to do hard work to repair our M, WH told me it was too little, too late.

He yelled it at me. That it was not going to happen, I lost my chance.

Doesn't that suck???

SS

Ha Ha. Must be directly from the WS handbook. When I found out about the 900th lie my WH told me, he had the nerve to tell me "This is your last chance to save our marriage".

I have turned it over to the Lord. Nothing I have done has helped in the least little bit. I am done working on it.

I just had brunch with my in laws and I told them the same thing. I have no idea what is going to happen and neither do they, but I told them I have put it in God's hands now. She said that is all you can do.....so hopefully it will burn out. She said that she had an affair and she felt so guilty that it ruined the affair for her. Also she told me that she asked WH if he would feel weird doing stuff with someone else's kid, when he should be doing it with his own. She said he said yeah probably....gee I wish all this was over already.

SS I pray for you and all of my friends on the board every night and day. I wouldn't know what to do without any of you. You are in my thoughts all the time. I feel as though we are family now, strange isn't it.

NY

SS, I kept you in my prayer.

You know what my Wh still wants a D

Thank you to all of my kind friends. Through all of your words of encouragement and hope and strength, I have found my resolution AGAIN!

Apparently, this is something I will lose and find over and over again in this journey.

Now that I am becoming more aware of the entire process as a whole, it is becoming easier to stay focused on what is important to me right now. Confronting WH is as loving and supportive and safe way as possible.

He has responded very well to my kindness lately. I think it is what he craves, since everything else in his life is so sharp and painful. I so want to be the soft place for him to land.

Please continue to pray for me. I prayed at the alter today in church, and I felt Jesus wrap his arms of peace and love around me, and I felt that God is truly holding me in the palm of His hand.

We have to remember that according to the Bible, God is behind our efforts. How can we go wrong with the "Big Guy" backing us up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lots of love and hugs and support. I am going to go watch Wierd Al videos with the boys, and doze on the couch. One of my newfound favorite Sunday activities!

So many things that once seemed so pressing for me to get done, just don't anymore! I love it. I feel free from the box I had put myself in for so many years! The world is so much clearer to me for having gone through this in my life.

Love, SS