OK here’s my story, sorry it’s so long.
I have been dealing with internet infidelity, chatting, and cybering for about 7 years. Of course, he said they were just his “friends” and this wasn’t in his eyes cheating. He has now gotten totally wrapped up with a married OW who lives in another state. They email, chat and call. She and I have talked on the phone too. Very surreal. Very civil conversation. I told her that I understand that she is not the problem, just a symptom.

He says he’s “in love” with her, loves me, but is not and has never been “in love” with me. He does say that I am 90% of what he wants in a woman, a great team and compatible, gee thanks. We have a 9 year old son. WH says that if we didn’t have him, he would have been gone by now. Right, I would’ve kicked him out too.
To further complicate matters, WH is unemployed (sort of looking) and drinks too much. I have been watching my codependent tendencies and have not been making an issue of that. But really have been not very diligent in trying to fill his emotional needs, just stayed out of his way, not causing confrontations or making demands. He says he doesn’t feel safe sharing emotional stuff with me. I really don’t understand why, I’ve been really pretty decent (I think) about everything so far. I brought up the MB stuff a few years ago and was blown off. We went to one MC session, neither one of us liked the guy and didn’t go back. I got him to agree recently to try an IC through our HMO, they didn’t hit it off either.

We’ve had a few talks. I tell him that if we follow the MB plan we can have that together. No commitment from him to do that. He says he does like our family life, even at one point suggested that we all live together. Yeah that’s gonna happen. I’ve even suggested that he just go, go to her, get the heck out. Then I got back on this site and started thinking that maybe there is hope and let him know that I want to really try to work it out. But that NC with her is the only way it is truly going to give us a shot. His position is that finally, he is feeling something that he has never felt before and how can I ask him to give that up.

He went camping alone this week (yes alone, this I know) to think etc. I suggested that he take the HNHN book and read it. NOPE, gonna read the bible. This is interesting, since the whole time we’ve been together, he’s been to church one time, with his grandma. But since the OW is religious, he’s gotten interested in it. He came home wearing a cross necklace she sent him with a bunch of other stuff. Yeah, great Christian woman that one. I wonder if the religion thing is something he’s going to try to use to put another mental wedge between us. I’m not into organized religion at all, have my own beliefs.

Anyhow, while he was gone I resolved to implement Plan A, no LB’s, just be the best I can be. Had the house fairly clean, cooked a nice dinner, (he usually cooks) showed interest in his online computer game, asked if he would do a puzzle with me. He did thank me for dinner, showed me how spades works and sort of begrudgingly worked the puzzle with me. At one point, he said something about how he knows I’m trying to be nice to him. We haven’t really been able to talk much since he got home, I did get from him that he didn’t come to any major conclusions while he was gone. So, we probably will talk today when he gets home from golfing.
Do I keep with my Plan A? I have printed out the EN questionnaire and would like him to fill it out, but have doubts he will. Make the books I’ve read available to him? I suspect that these will be seen as demands on my part. Just let his EA run its course? He says that he wants to see her, to see if it is real. How can I just put a bow on him and send him off? Maybe I should.
I worry about our son; I told WH that the OW is to have no further contact with him. She emailed him an e-card once. And that she is not going to raise him. WH thinks OW would be good for him! He has issues at school with social interactions and seems to be getting addicted to the net too. He has been to see the same guy at our HMO that WH didn’t like. DS has another appt. with him next week.
Wow, what a mess. If you got this far and are still awake, I would appreciate any input and advice.
Thanks!

Your H sincerely needs some help, but I don't see any indication that he is willing to get such help. He is not the one with the problem here. He doesn't have a problem with all this, you do.

He is perfectly happy sitting around all day playing on the computer and getting his needs met by TWO women. What man in their right mind wouldn't love that? He is not likely to give that up unless he has to. And since there are NO CONSEQUENCES for his actions, why should he?

I don't see that the problem here is unmet needs or a lack of education on his part. He is not interested in being educated, as you can see. Nor do most men like to talk about their "relationship." He has told you that you are meeting his needs, so you know that isn't the problem.

What I am getting at, is that Plan A is sort of useless in this situation. Your H is having a grand old time and will continue until you set down boundaries that protect yourself. I would take a very hard look at Plan B if I were in your situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ms_dian:
<strong> He has now gotten totally wrapped up with a married OW who lives in another state. They email, chat and call. She and I have talked on the phone too. Very surreal. Very civil conversation. I told her that I understand that she is not the problem, just a symptom.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whats surreal here is that you are talking to the OW as if this is all just normal. This is a woman who is helping destroy your marriage and you are being CIVIL to her? hmmmmmm She might be a symptom, but she IS the problem! And has to go.

What kind of message does it send to your H and your son that have "civil conversations" with this destructive woman? It tells them that you have NO BOUNDARIES and pretty much anything goes. I see a huge problem here in recognizing and setting boundaries for yourself. If you won't protect yourself, you cannot depend on others to do that for you. Why won't you protect yourself?

MelodyLane,
Thanks for your reply. You're right, he's got his cake and is eating it too. I really believe that he feels bad about all this, but is torn between "obligation" and "true love". Brother!
No, he really hasn't had consequences and I take the blame for that. I've been letting this marriage drift along with my head in the sand, doing more and more just to keep the peace. It has become all about his feelings and accepting things on his terms so he doesn't get into a depression.
The boundary issue is something I have been wrestling with and so far I have not been successful in defining what boundaries I want and can stick with. I had one regarding SF and drinking, and shortsightedly have not been enforcing that one well or effectively. Like telling him directly, more like being passive agressive. The one about her not contacting DS is laid in stone. He knows about that one.

The OW has told him to take his new "capacity to love" and direct it to his family. All the while, telling him how much she loves him, yadda yadda. I wonder if she's scared his butt is going to end up on her porch. I'm considering contacting her and telling her to put her money where her mouth is and disappear. But I would really like the decision to end the EA come from him.
I will think some more about boundaries.
And also Plan B. I have been doing pretty much a Plan A, not exactly, but mostly, already and that does not seem to be enough for him. Maybe a swift kick in the pants is what it will take. I don't want to be premature though. I've heard of others who went from A to B too quick and regretted it. But if A doesn't work on drinkers, why bother? What I am considering laying out very soon is: If you want to stay here, 1) Drop OW 2) Be a productive member of this family, by this I mean get a job and do your share of housework. 3)Figure out and implement a way to quit using alcohol to handle your issues. 4) Give me full access to email, computer passwords etc.
Geez, I hate having to lay out ultimatums, sounds like I'm dealing with a teenager, not an incredibly intelligent adult. I suspect that this may be too much for him to accept. In which case he has made his choice. I love him, but can set him free if I have to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ms_dian:
[QB]Maybe a swift kick in the pants is what it will take. I don't want to be premature though. I've heard of others who went from A to B too quick and regretted it. But if A doesn't work on drinkers, why bother? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you have been doing this for several years so I dont think there is any risk of being premature here. But he is not an alcoholic, is he? The danger of going into Plan B too quickly is when you haven't demonstrated your best side to them. I don't think that is an issue here because I don't think he does this out of a reaction to unfulfilled needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I am considering laying out very soon is: If you want to stay here, 1) Drop OW 2) Be a productive member of this family, by this I mean get a job and do your share of housework. 3)Figure out and implement a way to quit using alcohol to handle your issues. 4) Give me full access to email, computer passwords etc.
Geez, I hate having to lay out ultimatums, sounds like I'm dealing with a teenager, not an incredibly intelligent adult. I suspect that this may be too much for him to accept. In which case he has made his choice. I love him, but can set him free if I have to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I think this probably an excellent consideration. You certainly aren't doing him any favors by allowing him to sit at home and destroy himself, and take you and your son down in the process. You have to protect yourself and son from this.

Just lay out your boundaries and tell him what you can and can't live with. If he can live within your boundaries, then he is welcome to stay, if not, well you are sorry, but you can understand if he chooses those things over you and wish him well! That will wake him up FAST! This way, the ball is in HIS COURT.

Is he an alcoholic?

Yes I think he is. I've gone through Co D classes and have detached from obsessing over when and how much. But he seems to need it to get through life. Personally, I think he needs anti-depressants, St Johns Wort is as far as he will go.
I think what I will do first is hold off on the ultimatum stuff and keep it in my back pocket for now.
As far as his needs, I don't know if I've been meeting the ones important to him. I will first see if he is willing at all to check out this site and the concepts presented. His reaction to that will give me an idea of how quickly and which direction to go from there. Thanks for taking an interest, I really appreciate it. I feel stronger than I did this morning.

ms. dian,

You are correct to set your boundaries. Sounds like your H is also a conflict avoider. Given that and his cake eating & fence sitting tendancies, a long plan A is not healthy for you and your family. Why? Because it turns into an enabling tool for the WS.

Read up on plan B and do a good plan A first. Let him know that your family is valuable and if he wants to be a part of your family, he needs to show his value.

He may use this as an opportunity to leave. Let him. You really don't want a cake eating/fence sitting/conflict avoider in your life anyways. Let him know you want the man you married and not the one with issues who is abusing his family with his antics. Drinking to excess (alcoholism) is also a disrespectful act.

Firm but loving. Yes, this is what we normally do with our children but for some crazy reason, so many adults revert beyond their childhood to some demented state of mind. To a time and deminsion that should never exist for a human being.

Keep your family respect high. It is the one thing you can hold onto. It is his choice to join it or leave.

BS - Be strong. Be stable. Be sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

I would agree with melodylane here. It sems he is having his cake and eating it too. It's time to get tough, you have been nice, now it's time to give him that swift kick in the pants like you described. Let him know that he can't take from you without giving back.

Good Luck,

MIF?

Hi guys,
Well we talked yesterday. So far he still will not give up OW. He says he feels no guilt except in regards to our DS and my finding out. Yup, it's all my fault this is happening since I found out and didn't keep my mouth shut. He also asked why am I making such an issue now when I knew he was doing all this stuff in the net before and now that he has found somebody that could make him happy I want to mess it up (or words to that effect). I told him that it was a kick in the pants for me and that I should have been a b**** years ago and laid down the law about that stuff.

He asked what he could do to keep OW and stay here. He says he won't drink anymore through sheer willpower and will get a job. Housework? Give him a list. Typical bargaining behavior, I almost laughed.

He really is not convinced that we could work this out and he could be "happy" in the end. He says that he has never been happy, it has been tolerable.

He will be checking out the MB site and reading "Not Just Friends" and HNHN. I hope he reads these with an open mind. And once he gets a job, he may move out. He still wants to go see her. I asked how can a week with someone give any clue as to it working out with them, it would be all wonderful of course and like a vacation. He agreed with me, but still wants to do that. If they get together, she would move to our area. He said that OW would be good for DS. I about choked.
Anyhow, that's where we're at. Model husband, on the surface. I should of bought a cucumber at the store yesterday (for my eyes) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
D

ms dian

You seem to take this all in stride.. You are allowing him to walk all over you. If he was remorseful it would be different, but obviously he could care less and all he wants is his cake and to eat it too! How you can put up with this rather than telling him to get out is something I cant understand. He is so in the fog here he cant see straight but your response to the situation is what surprises me.

I hope you will stop allowing him to abuse you this way and find some strength to tell him either he stops all contact with her or he gets to find another place to live..

Sorry but that is what most in your situation would do.. You deserve so much better than this.. Take care and be strong..

Thinking of you
Lmh

Unless I missed it in the posts above, have you informed this married OW's husband? Since you spoke with her, you ought to be able to speak to him, hmmmmm?

Have you exposed this to any of your H's family?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ms_dian:
<strong>
He will be checking out the MB site and reading "Not Just Friends" and HNHN. I hope he reads these with an open mind. And once he gets a job, he may move out. He still wants to go see her. D </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dian, what happened to those boundaries that we spoke about? Those boundaries are not contingent upon the other person's agreement. What about your boundaries, Dian? And he "may" move out? huh? Is he in control of what you will and won't tolerate? Don't you have a say in all this? I think its great that you had a nice discussion, but I don't see that anything productive happened here. He won't change unless he has to and from what I can see, he doesn't have to change a thing.

Hi,
Now I'm really thrown for a loop.
But first to answer your questions
MelodyLane- I was going to see how he reacted to the reading he was going to do. If there was no response to that, I was going to plan B. I actually thought him agreeing to read was progress.

WAT- I have thought about talking to her husband, but right now he is recovering from heart surgery. HIs family lives in another state too and really anything they would say would be discounted by him. My MIL are I close and she would be supportive.

Lovemyhubby- Yes my reaction surprises me too. I think I'm pretty darn resilient and am trying to keep my eye on the bigger picture. Being practical, I would like to see him have a job so as to not totally mess us up financially. I can see where this looks like I'm letting him abuse me, but being practical is what keeps me sane.

Anyhow, today he got a email from her saying that it breaks her heart etc, but she is going to back away. He is pretty upset obviously. He told me that is my fault for being nosey! Whatever! He said that he won't read "my stuff" and will just stay here having "lost his dream" and live here waiting to die. What a lovely prospect. I don't think that is an option. I do want him to be happy and having him here being a martyr is not going to work. I think I need to step back a little and let him go through his withdrawal before instigating anything.
Well, that's where it is now. Thank you all for your thoughts. Keeping my chin up here,
D