I don't want to come across like this is a joke because of my question; but I am so lost and confused and I am at the end of the line. Especially since these thoughts led me to have an A with OW.

Here's the story. When we first went out she was 18 and I was 22. I was the first guy she ever had sex with and she was "into it" back then. 1 year later I broke up with her and went away to college. I had 2 nice girlfriends in college and afterword, but things didn't work out, and I had 1 nutcase girlfriend (doesn't every guy?)too. It was then that I realized how great W truly was, so I contacted her. The first thing she said to me was, "WHy are you contacting me now; when I have finally gotten over you?"

Needless to say, we started going out again and I confirmed my belief that she truly was the sweetest person in the world. So kind and quiet and gentle, great work-ethic, etc. I appreciated her so much more than I did years earlier.

To make a long story short, we finally got married. And then sex prety much disappeared. Don't ask me why. I don't know. She is very pretty and I am sort of attractive. Not that these things matter; but it's not like one of us put on 300 pounds or did anything to turn each other off. She just lost interest. And it's not that I was terrible in bed or anything. Although after awhile, when I saw that she was mainly having sex out of some sense of duty or something, I lost interest too. I am sorry to say that sex with her became one notch above masterbation. Since she never liked to kiss or touch, I basically couldn't wait to get it over with.

Oh, and as far as I know, she was NEVER molested as a little girl, so she doesn't have any sad issues like that.

There really is no excuse that i can think of that keeps her from wanting to have sex.

By the way, I found out that in the years we were apart, she only had one other boyfriend. Her mom said that she went out with the guy because she felt sorry for him. She doesn't have any sex toys, so it's not like they are distracting her from me. She is NOT having an affair. She simply does not have the time for that. I know where she is every second of the day. She is either at work or home or with her mom or with one of her two best friends. She doesn't drink or do drugs and really doesn't like too many people. She liked being at home and reading and doing her crafts and watching TV. I don't worry that she is out partying when I am not around.

A few years ago I got sick of practically begging her for sex all the time. I decided to stop asking her. Following that, we had sex 3-4 times a year at the most; and usually because we were on vacation and she probably felt obligated because we were in a hotel room.

We have NO children. She does not want any. She also refuses to get any type of birth control, so at my age I am still putting on a condom to have sex with my wife.

Last year I had an affair. I don't know what came over me. I own a company that allows me to hire independent contractors periodically. I hired a very pretty girl who was always staring at me. She told me she was in the process of getting divorced from her husband --- who coincidentaly, never wanted to have sex with her.

I was stupid. I did not use a condom. I am ashamed to say I had the best sex in my life with her. We kissed like I hadn't kissed since I was in college. My girlfriend NEVER suspected anything was wrong until she accidentally heard one of the "sexy" messages the OW left on my cell phone. My W started crying. I made some lame excuse and my W bought it. She asked me to fire her but I refused to. The A lasted 11 months.

I secretly hoped my W would find out so we could talk about this. Interestingly, my wife allowed all of 2003 to go by with our having sex once! She did not find it suspicious at all --- or she didn't care ---- that I did not ask her for sex!

Anyway, I finally realized enough was enough and I broke it off with the OW. My W still does not know anything about the A.

I read some super freaky e-mails from BATOUTOFHELL and KNEWBETTER about the psycho OW and OM they were involved with, and I have to add myself to their group. My story isn't as bad as theirs; but The OW is going nuts and hired a lawyer to sue me for Emotional Distress! Don't ask me how in the world she has been able to do this, but it is ugly. Thankfully we are both under a court order to not contact each other, etc. so I am not worried YET about her telling my W.

But I am amazed that her H has not called my W to tell her yet. He has known about the A since it started. She used to rub it in his face. That was another reason I finally broke it off with her. I am not interested in knowing people who can be that ugly. Even if he deserved it (he was/is abusive) her personality needed (needs) a major overhaul!

I have found out that she has been calling my customers and tearing me to shreds. I tried to get a Restraining Order against her but I was turned down. It's not as easy as people think. And besides, why would I want to provoke her anymore? A restraining order is only a piece of paper. It doens't stop anyone from doing anything. I jsut want her out of my life.

Do I tell my W about the A? If I do, we can finally try to tackle why in the world our sex life has gone down hill. I have asked her (even yesterday!) if she is a lesbian and she just clams up. Doesn't argue. Doesn't deny it. Just doesn't talk to me.

If the OW tells her, my W probably won't believe her because she already thinks the OW is psycho.

Am I married to a lesbian? I already told her I won't be mad if she is. I won't throw her out or tell anyone. I just want to know. We are the best of friends. She can have anything she wants ... but I do not want to live the rest of my life with someone who doesn't want to have sex and I DO NOT want to have another affair! And I have to say --- it is very tempting!

Incidentally, I am NOT some sex maniac or pervert. I just want to have a NORMAL sex life with my wife, and it is so bad that I am actually wondering if she doesn't even like guys! This is so sad, and there isn't anything funny about it at all. I suggested counseling. She looks at me as if I am an idiot. Is it possible that she has zero sex drive?

NOTE: 4 years ago her parents got divorced. We just found out 2 years ago that her father is gay and "involved" with his "roommate" I have respect for the father for not wasting any more of his wife's time and finally doing what will make him happy. My W tells me that her father is happier than she has ever seen him be before.

I am sorry for the length. Any advice will be appreciated; but please no biblical quotes, no religious talk and please don't pray for me. I just want some feedback and ideas that I can put to use ASAP.

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: whiteknight ]</small>

My H and I have had some interesting discussions about sex. For what it is worth, I have heard Harley on his radio show say similar things, but my H is more blunt. He has said that "sex is a physical drive". For women, it is much more about a relationship.

I felt as though I had a religious duty to be available to my H whenever he wanted sex. I was concerned about his so-called relationship with OW but thought that his religious convictions and his own openess about his struggles with talking with OW meant he wasn't having an A, but I had sex and hated it. In fact, I felt like he was defecating into me. At the time, I was less graphic and told him I felt violated when we had sex, but I went ahead anyway.

We went to two MC after the A was exposed, and both told me to not have sex because it is an accuarate reflection of the lack in our M. Well, we had sex perhaps 10 times in the first year and none in the second year. Then in December I sat my H down, told him that the second MC was telling me the concept of care doesn't make sense to him, and said I was ending MC but was open to MB.

Guess what was the first change with MB? Have sex. I said I would feel like a whore and basically I was told that within M that was OK because I am trying to rebuild a relationship with my H.

Am I a lesbian? No. I am a woman whose H treated her so badly that she became repulsed by sex.

Is your W a lesbian? Possibly. I don't know her. However, I think it far more likely that her lack of interest in sex stems from the quality of your relationship and not her sexual orientation. I think that the wisest thing you can do is admit the A and get into a program of recovery. My H and I are having a bumpy ride in MB, but he's also been physically abusive (broke my arm when we were arguing about OW). I would definitely recommend MB. In my view, the program ends a bad marriage. Either the program is followed and the H and W meet each other's needs, or someone opts out.

And, FYI, Harley does have a religious bent (he is a guest on his wife's radio show twice a week, and it's on a Christian radio show) but his view of sex is that the only ethical way for a married person to get sexual needs met is with the spouse, so it is a very important step for the W to be willing to do this. I never had any problem with sex, but I also had no problem with having no sex. For me, it's an expression of care and love. Without care or love, why have sex? It's meaningless.

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Thank you for your comments. I understand exactly what you are saying and they make sense. Unfortunately, the quality of our life has not changed at all. If anything, it has gotten better. I am a work-a-holic but anytime she ever called me --- I drop everything. When she comes into my office; nothing is more important than her. When she wants to go somewhere or do something; that is fine with me. It has always been like this. I never wanted to be a jerk like my dad who always left my mom alone. I am very affectionate and fun and interested in her day.

I am more than willing to live my life like a Wrigley's gum commercial. She can jump in my arms anytime and I'll spin her around and bring her to the grass and kiss her. No problem. But sh'e just not interested.

Maybe she has zero sex drive. She has told me a few times that she doesn't even think about having sex. It is never even a thought in her head.

The only good thing that I can say came out of the A is that I don't feel like I'm ugly or that I suck in bed anymore. Pretty pathetic, huh?

Hi whiteknight

I don't know if your is lesbian or not.

I suggest you, you read this site, especially the need's part.

SF need

A thing that you posted poped up my eyes...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am a work-a-holic but anytime she ever called me --- I drop everything. When she comes into my office; nothing is more important than her. When she wants to go somewhere or do something; that is fine with me. It has always been like this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know about your wife, but for a lot of women (I include myself in that combo) sex is part of a romantic relationship. Like you said, your wife was always looking for you, and there you went. How about trying to look for her? Maybe she got tired of it over time? What are the romatic things you do for your wife?

I don't know.... just throwing some things here.

If she doesn't want a counselor, how about reading "His Needs/Her Needs" together and then completing the little assignments that go with it? At least you will get a better understanding of what is important to the both of you. I know that you feel things are great between you except the sex part, but if it really was, there would have been more sex and no affair(provided she's been truthful about her sexual orientation). My H and I were best friends and he still had an A. Turns out, after taking the ENQ, we didn't really know what eachothers top 3 emotional needs were. You may be suprised.

You both need to be honest with each other. At the very least, she needs to know about the A and you need to know her sexual orientation.

Glad you found the board.

whiteknight,

I want to bring a couple ideas to the tabel for you to think over.......keep in mind these are just my thots, ok? Nothing set in stone here, and I could be way off base.

First of all, when you and W broke up after a bit of relationship, you broke her heart. OK. it's possible she "got over it" and fell back in love w/you, but it's also possibel she still harbors some anger.........

Next, You say she was into it, but afteryou got m'd it sort of went by the wayside........there is a sense of "forbidden fruit" element.

You say she doesn't want to have children, which makes me think she has "hang ups" about the whole reproductive part of her body, and sexual organs. I can't tell you if this would qualify her as a "lesbian" or not, but it certainly is not a normal, healthy way for a young woman to feel about herself, her future, her M.

Speaking of hang ups, I kinda wonder if "Mom" had drummed some stuff into her head. Since "Dad" turned out to be gay, I'm wondering about that. Let me explain.........

Many years ago, my mom used to say stuff to us (two little daughters) all the time. Stuff like" Men only want one thing." "Men ar pigs" "A man can do it with any slut, any time, anywhere......"

Secondly, she used to say, "he's a homosexual, I think."
NOW, being older, I think she was probly repulsed by his request for oral, which I think she didn't want to give..........so she figured that must mean he's gay. I know what you're thinking.............."that really isn't something a mother ought to be talking to her (teenage) daughter about." Agreed. But it happened. I can't change that. I have no idea why she said thos things, but those are the reasons I think she did.

See, what those comments did was corrupt my (and my sister's) minds against thinking of sex as a beautiful thing to be shared and enjoyed by a H and W within the confines of their M.

I was watching Dr. Phil one after noon, and this very subject came up, and he said the same thing! The woman didn't want to have sex w/her H and it came out that her mother had told her the same stuff as this her whole life. When she got M'd she thought it all the time, whenever her H wanted to have sex, she thought he was a pig, and rejected him!! till he had An A. Dr. Phil told her to change the tapes she listened to.

Whatr could the tape be your W is hearing? is itpossibel her mother "knew" about H's "orientation" a long time ago, and somehow gave that message that men are animals, or only men get to enjoy sex, etc. to her daughter?

Here's another senaraio (cause this happened to me, also): Your story of how you two dated makes it sound like your W didn't "date around" very much. It's possible you are the only guy she has had sex with!

You say you don't want "preachy" stuff, but truthfully, it could be part of the problem as well......is it possible she learned that "God doesn't want people to have sex unless they are M'd?" Then even after they get M'd, the "good girl" can't let herself go and enjoiy it.

If you're her ownly partner, great!! But also, not so great. Meaning: if she is not "experienced." I know how this goes.......I was that person. I sometimes think my H made too many "assumptions" that I knew more about making love than I did. Yes, I faked a lot. I read a little, I "satisfied" him (he was easy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) He loved me a lot.

However, since I 'didn't know what I was doing" - I admit sometimes I didn't want to do anything, since I was very inexperienced, I felt awkward, stupid, like I wouldn't "do it right".

Have you "taught" her things? Does she really know what she's supposed to do? See, knight, I DIDN'T WHAT TO DO, DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO KISS RIGHT!! Probly still don't, but now it doesn't matter..........no one to kiss. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

H never said a word. He was just thrilled to be having sex.

However, i feel like if he just would've helped me LEARN stuff, I wouldn't feel stupid, and wouldve liked to try new stuff. As it was, I felt stupid, and I just hid it from him by pretending to NOT want to have sex.

See, the "tapes" my mom gave me about sex, plus my own lack of experience (or technique), plus not having EN's met.............

WHAT A FORMULA FOR DISASTER

almost sounds like your story.

Hope this helps you find a place to start looking for a solution. btw, I personally think you two need counseling to explore if any of the above thots could be really happening w/your W.

AND I vote you must tell her about A. Another good reason to start counseling.

Great advice from everyone. I started a subscription to PLAYBOY 6 months ago (for the articles, of course!) and W doens't even look at it. I would think if she was attracted to chicks, even if she is deep in the closet, she would look at the pix, but she doens't. But then again, beither do I. I don't know what kind of kick Hugh is on these days, but those aren't the types of girls I would like. I guess they appela to someone.

Anyway, some excellent points were brought up. Yes, it is true that I work a lot and am gone a lot on business; but I DO approache her every chance I can, and I sot with her, etc. And she knows she can get me to drop anything, anytime, if she really wants or needs me for anything.

A better point was what kind of relationship she has with her mother. Her mom is NOT a happy person. She doesn't trust anyone. In addition, when I broke up with W way-back-when W told me the mother was very mad at me and said some terrible things about me; even though I never found out what those things are. So, yes, there might be some hidden anger still in there. But I feel I have more than made up for that.

Another great point is her lack of experience. That does make sense. She never really did kiss anyone before. She is VERY QUIET during sex. Not to make a joke but, someties I feel like a necrophiliac (sp?) She may as well be dead.

HOWEVER, the OW was very inexperienced too. She was upset by this. She had sex with 10-11 guys in H.S. and college and then got married to th guy who never wanted to have sex with her. She told me her sex life has been pathetic. Before marriage, the guys just did it for a few minutes, very boring, and her H was not interested in anything, and never lasted very long. She was very eager to kiss right and do all sorts of things right. She would beg me to teach her stuff that I knew. So IF that theory about my W is correct, than that really sucks that the OW was te same way --- but she wanted to make the effort to do things to make me hapy.

In reference to telling W about A ... Of course I don't want to; but it seems like the right thing to do. Unfortuantely, I feel like if I tell her now it will be for the WRONG reasons; which include I want to beat the OW to the punch, and in some way I kind of want to tell my W, to sort of "show off" that I don't suck in bed; because W will likely ask for details, and I'll have to explain doing some OW 5 times a night, etc. So guess I need to figure out the REAL reason I want to tell her, and it has to be a reason that beefits the M, and doens't just cover my butt or fuel my ego -- because that won't accomplish anything then.

Does anyone else have any advice on how to deal with a wacko OW or OM? I am not interested in restraining orders or getting the police involved after reading some other posts; especially the Batman's. It seems liek that will just fuel the fires and create a potential monster and more resentment from OW.

WK,

I know you don't want it to seem that you are telling your wife in an effort to preempt OW, but who would your wife rather hear it from? Most likely she will find out at some point. It's better that it's you for obvious reasons.

What does your lawyer think about her suit? Is it something generated soley to get your attention or does it have any merit? Is there any contact at all? in any form? Do you think this gives her the feeling of being connected to you somehow(i know it's sick)?

*forgot something - I know you said that you feel you are doing everything you can to meet her needs. I think it's wonderful that you are so attentive. I am willing to bet, though, that aside from her "issues" she does have certain needs that are not being met. I'm saying this because I thought I was a very attentive wife. I was very serious about learning what my H liked and working to make things exactly how he wanted them. I was suprised to learn that I had been attempting to meet needs that I thought were important but were really low on his scale. Most often, our ENs are very different from our spouses. Please dont stop short of taking the ENQ at least once. It can give both of you very valuable input such as what needs, how often and specifically what actions meet those needs. It's a great start.

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: cleopatra ]</small>

I am amused in reading your post, in part because I asked myself "What planet are you from?" and then realized that the names of popular books on differences in the sexes implies the same questions: Mars and Venus.

You are subscribing to Playboy and evaluating whether her lack of interest in the pictures is a clue as to whether she is a lesbian. How about questioning if your interest in porn is a turn-off for her?

Nearly a year after D-day, I finally started to feel receptive to my H's interest in sex, and we had sex 3 times in 9 days. (That was times 7 through 10 after nearly a year, so it was a big increase in frequency.)

I take my daughter on a playdate, my son is at a birthday party, and my H is home with our two toddlers, ages 4 and 1. I am not very savvy on the computer at all, but I notice something that leads me to realize that he had been using porn.

Ugh! I confronted him, he admitted to it, and that was the last time we had sex until we got into the MB program 11 months later.

My guess is that your W is repulsed by sex with you, not sex in general. From listening to Harley's radio program, it sounds like people in really bad marriages can actually switch sexual orientation, at least temporarily. I remember one guy in particular who had an affair with a woman, married her, and 10 years later she ended up having an affair with another woman. But it sounds to me like your W is acting very much like a woman whose H has done things so disgusting and repulsive to her that she has no interest in sex. If she is very quiet, it may be an indication that she is enduring rather than enjoying sex.

Look into Harley's program with the MB weekend, because he has quite an emphasis early on on sexual enjoyment, since that is the one emotional need that cannot be ethically met by anyone other than a spouse. But, if you choose MC, my recommendation is that you pre-quality the MC by making sure that they don't want you to hold off on having sex, like our two MCs did. I can't say that my interest in sex is as great as it was prior to the A, but I can say that I am being more vocal about what I enjoy or don't enjoy or simply don't find exhilerating. In 11 years of M, we have had one very short conversation about sex, which I brought up. He said, "I'm satisfied." He never seemed to care about whether I was.

WK -

I'm in a hurry and truly astonished at your post. Here's a brief summary:

- You had an affair
- You're reading pornography
- Your wife spends all her time with other people

And you wonder why she doesn't want to have sex with you????? Criminy, buster! Would you please spend about a year looking at your own actions and reactions before you decide she's a lesbian?

*mutter*

I promise I'll write more when I can be slightly more coherent. But PLEASE. Learn to treat your wife with respect and dignity. I think you'll find that you have a long way to go there.