TogetherAlone felt this issue was getting lost on another thread and I agree totally...this is a critical issue and one that folks tend to skirt around in order to justify their behaviour...

WS use "feelings" to justify A's, continued/renewed contact, wiffle-waffling over M commitment, etc.

BS use "feelings" to justify LBs, continued LBs, ever-worsening LBs, lack of personal recovery, etc.

Here's some of what TogetherAlone had to say about feelings...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If our feelings make us uncomfortable, we may feel compelled to take an action that relieves the feeling of discomfort. We feel it's RIGHT because it reduces the pressure and makes us feel better.

If consequences generate further discomfort, we look to act on that feeling by doing something to lessen the pain...vicious circle.

If the feelings are a temptation to do something that we think will make us feel 'better', they seem very 'true'. We tell ourselves that we're 'entitled', that our feeling better will be positive for everyone else intimately connected to us.

We usually find a rational argument for acting on feelings. We can tell it's a rationalisation if we imagine our spouse (or mother, or someone else we value and need) doing the same thing and making the same argument. If we imagine that scenario, and feel the slightest indignation or contempt, we are not being honest with ourselves. We are doing Special Pleading, excusing ourselves beacuse we have 'special circumstances' which don't apply to others.

If we frequently act on feelings, the muscle that pushes against emotional pressure gets weak. We forget it's there. We do what our feelings tell us, and use justifications to shore up our decisions.

So perhaps this thread could usefully generate some pointers as to why feelings are not reality, and what we can do to build up our resistance muscle? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">anyone want to chat about this??? have any strong feelings ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> awed

P.S. TogetherAlone: if no one else jumps in here, my hat's off to you...I think you raised some awesome points that were lost in the "shouting"...

Good topic awed, I find myself letting my feelings get in the way but right before I talk to my WW I say to myself it's not about my want's, desire's, and feelings, it is about my WW's be nice and let her see the nice person you are and don't LB. This usually helps me out and keeps me very calm when I talk to her.

There's a good book out there called "The 5 love languages" which I liked. Chapter 10 is titled "Love is a choice". The synopsis of the chapter is that every relationship has an "In love" stage that lasts up to 2 years or so. It's characterized by intense feelings of excitement, euphoria, newness, etc. What almost always happens is that this "warm fuzzy" feeling disappears and you are left with the realities of the relationship and what you do at that point with decide if the relationship survives (See His Needs/Her Needs as well). So to the person who has just started an affair, I think the feelings are very real, but after that, Love becomes a choice that you make each day, a comittment that you make to your spouse. I think this scenario is why most affairs usually don't last.

Johns98ck good for you! that's a good tip for other BS to use too...

InGreatPain I've heard that a lot of people like that book...I'll have to check it out...

further to what you said, even if the "feelings" are "real", should they be acted upon? many of us would argue that it is the acting on the feelings in the first place that allowed them to become so intense...either for the BS or the WS...

as TogetherAlone said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "If the feelings are a temptation to do something that we think will make us feel 'better', they seem very 'true'." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not arguing that a BS is angry/hurt or whether they have the "right" to feel that way (of course they do!), just is there any point to taking out your feelings on your WS? does it really help you in the end? although you think you will "feel better" by your outburst, do you?

many don't...perhaps even most don't...and many regret these outbursts later on because they do not help to save your M...

and as for the WS, they act on their feelings in order to have the A...how many "feel better" in the end?

good topic. maybe i'm going to be real off base here but i can admit that maybe i am still in the wrong for wanting to fight for my M. i fee really convinced that if my H gave our M another shot that we would be happy. but are his feelings of that he can't go back and that it's just too late and that he would be miserable if he came back (because that's not what he wants) any less than what i'm feeling. why am i feeling that fighting for my M is more important that what he's feeling because that's how i feel because i know he's in a fog.

i hate seeing my H in this turmoil but you know i'm in turmoil too, so who's feelings are more important. mine to work on our M or his to not be married to me?

sometimes i feel like i'm being consumed by these forums but it's because it is helping me so how can i blame my H for what he is doing to help him?

<small>[ March 26, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: roughroad ]</small>

Hey roughroad! good on you for exposure...you handled a tough situation really well!

listen: there's nothing "wrong" with feelings...the point of this post is to explore how you handle feelings...

you are upset with your H (understandably) because he is not telling you the truth, he's not handling the situation between you with dignity and respect for you, he's engaged in an A while M to you...

but instead of screaming abuse at him, you are showing love and compassion, you are treating others with respect and quiet, calm words...

see the difference?

it's about whether or not we let feelings drive our actions...

not whether or not your feelings are more important than your H's...

BTW: it's terrific that these forums are helping...I remember thinking they were responsible for keeping me sane in the early days...

and don't "blame" your H, try to understand him instead...understand the pressure he is under...I found that compassion was what helped me remain calm despite the crap I was handed on a regular basis (like the re-writing of history between us, the re-writing of OW's character, the lies, etc.)...and like you, I had lots to reproach myself with in the past...

it's who you are NOW that counts...it's how you handle yourself NOW, under this extreme pressure, that will define YOU in future...

keep up the good fight RR...and don't forget to care for yourself...awed

i know, i know but wouldn't i be showing him love and compassion if i "let him go?" he says that if I love him that i will let him go, i said that IT'S BECAUSE I LOVE YOU that i want to fight for our marriage.

going to be doing a new post to review before i leave this weekend. thanks awed.

I haven't read any of the other responses yet, so if this was mentioned...oh well!

I think our feelings are always connected to our conscience (for the most of us.) I don't think we can feel something without ALSO making an immediate inner decision of it's goodness or otherwise. When we go on to weigh it on the 'balance' or 'scale' of our conscience, we then make a decision to act on our feelings or not.

I think suppressing our feelings (as if they themselves are not good) IS not good. Working through the consequences of our possible actions based soley on our feelings is where our rational mind/conscience comes in.

We are just not ALL feelings. We are people who make decisions and we have a conscience. This is why the legal system works (hopefully, most times.) Because people are responsible for their choices, what they DO with what they feel/have felt/have thought. Unless one is declared mentally imbalanced, of course. WS's with no remorse alarm me perhaps as much as a serial rapist with no remorse.

Feelings feelings feelings. Very powerful, especially in crisis.

I am amazed at how I can feel so "right" about my anger, my words, my feelings. Then when I vomit them out all over WH to make myself feel better, I only feel better for an instant.

Then I regret.

So, now when I feel so justified and sure about my anger and words, I talk to a friend, email a friend, or come here and post my feelings.

All I can do is remember in the special place in the back of my head, that little voice in those intense moments, that tells me to not let my feelings out on WH, to do something else with them. Because that little voice reminds me of my past, and reminds me that later, I will know it is not OK to dump on other people - especially the person you are supposed to love and protect above all others.

Because even though he did not do that for me, protect me, I promised to do that for him. And I will do my best.

That is what I tell my kids. One will say, "He called me stupid!" And the other will say, "Yeah, but he called me dumb first!" And I'll ask how that made him feel, and he'll admit it didn't make him feel good. So I say, "Then why did you do it back, if you know it doesn't feel good when someone does it to you?"

That is what I remember when the LB's come upon me.

SS

rough road,

"i know, i know but wouldn't i be showing him love and compassion if i "let him go?" he says that if I love him that i will let him go, i said that IT'S BECAUSE I LOVE YOU that i want to fight for our marriage."

Sometimes, fighting for your M in the most powerful way, is through letting them go their way till they have had their fill of the filth they desire. Giving them the freedom to hit rock bottom and come to their senses.

rough, one thing is true. We really cannot change our spouses by demands. I learned this one the hard way. What we can do is be who we are, set our boundaries and make those boundaries completely clear to our S's. The hardest part of doing this, is not so much making those boundaries clear to our S's, but clear to ourselves. We have to come to terms with what we can and cannot live with in our M's. (This applies to all relationships, really.) What others do may or not be acceptable to us- it may not be something we can welcome and applaud and support. Perhaps because it hurts us directly, perhaps because it hurts our kids, or perhaps because it hurts the person themselves.

We can state our opinion of it. We can say (without LB) how/why we feel as WE do about it. Then, and STILL, the other person has the right to either agree, or disagree.

Getting back to fighting for your M. What I really want to say about that is that there is not only one way to drive that fight home. Here, there's Plan A and B--and from what I've read so far about them--good plans.

In the midst of all of this chaos, there is still YOU to consider. Sometimes, as BS's, we tend to take last place in our own considerations. Value you. Learn to do that more and more and others will (even WS) eventually step up to *that plate.

Get to know your own boundaries in R's and that what others do NEVER define you. Only you get to define you, regardless of what any OTHER does.

I know you want to fight for your M and I respect that.

This is the greatest leap of faith that love takes, if ya ask me. When H said to you
"he says that if I love him that i will let him go, "
I'd say to him,

"Go."

We need to make a very VERY important differential here.

A WS's feelings are often voluntary. They do not require or compell a WS to take action on. And they are negotiable pre affair.

A BS does not enjoy any of the above.

All the trauma about discovering an affair is unvoluntary. It requires indeed demands action of some kind. And those feelings are non-negotiable.

So when talk emotions and feelings being used to justify behavior we need to distingiush between feelings a WS had and could have acted on in a wide variety of ways versus feelings thrust upon a BS which by their very nature forces a betrayed spouse to deal with things they did not volunteer for or chose to have.

Last_Straw: thanks for specifically pointing that out...

no one should feel they must suppress their feelings...that would be unhealthy and very stressful...

I was hoping people might post their coping methods for dealing with releasing the intense feelings so that their BRAIN can kick in and drive the action/reaction...

I'll try to find some of the myriad of suggestions I've made in previous posts...

Spider Slayer: good on ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> that's an excellent example...how do we teach our children to behave...

that "little voice in your head" is handy to have during intense discussions...and that technique is also one I used...to remind myself that two wrongs don't make a right...just because he was not honouring our wedding vows did NOT make it right for me to do the same thing...

and like you, I like myself a whole lot better later on too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SDFR: I am sure you do not mean to suggest for a moment that the BS is justified in acting/reacting based purely on emotions???

if so, that would certainly run counter to all Plan A behaviour and everything that a BS is encouraged to do on this board, during Plan A, withdrawal and recovery!

please do not take the comparison between a WS and BS to mean their actions or feelings are comparable...this thread is meant solely to discuss the idea that ACTING based on FEELINGS will lead you down the wrong path, regardless of whether you are a WS or a BS.

as TogetherAlone put it: "So perhaps this thread could usefully generate some pointers as to ...what we can do to build up our resistance muscle"

hopefully some other people will post with their techniques for calming down emotions, getting a grip before you spew, stopping the LBs, resisting the urge to contact OP, etc.

hope that clears the confusion for you a bit...if not, please start another thread...I don&#8217;t think confusing newbies with esoteric debate is helpful...awed