Yes, try to make him talk to SH.

Nid...when my H and OW broke NC shortly after dday...I too didn't think they had an opportunity but they made one. Remember my H is a stay at home dad and I work in a home office..OW was next door neighbor...don't you think I watched them like a hawk? They were still able to sneak by me and make contact..3 times in person (he was driving to workout adn she met him on rollerblades and got in car and they drove out of sight down street and talked) and about 5-6 times over the phone...all in a 3 day period of time.

Then...I finally caught them...but not by seeing them but by opening a credit card bill and seeing that he had charged minutes for ONSTAR..he was using ONSTAR in is vehicle to call her! Now is that sneaky or what?!

None of what he is doing doesn't make sense unless he's still seeing her or planning to see her.

As for making an appt with SH and forcing your H to attend...hmm..tought one...I had to drag my H to things in the early days of recovery but in a short period of time, he was hooked and did things on his own.

Remember my H's post to you about WS's needing a strong BS during those early fogbound days???

Do you remember 2ofakind and other WS's similar postings?

I wouldn't keep avoiding all talks of his moving out or his vacillating...burying your head in the sand never really solves anything.

That doesn't mean you have to LB..just that you need to tell him clearly what you are feeling...Plan A isn't about hiding your thoughts and feelings from the WS..you need to share them in but in a non LB way.

I would simply telling him that hanging around in Limbo land is slowly killing you and you need his help....see where that leads the conversation.

I hope you hear from others who have experienced or witnessed withdrawal (I haven't), but this may be what he's going through - assuming he's really ended it with OW. Otherwise, it's the same 'ole fence sitting. Don't try to react to every current in the river, or make stock picks on a single day's performance. Patience, patience, patience.

Do not "make" him do anything - including talking to SH. Don't even try. Very controlling.

If he comes across as being comfortable with, or is considering counseling, you can suggest SH as a highly recommended and experienced choice. But any port in a storm here. Steve is preferred, but settle for a local if that's all he'll consider.

Oh, by the way, what's today's date, hmmmmm??? And I'm NOT referring to the fact that it's April Fools Day.

OK, you can tell me I was right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

This is an email my friend sent me today. She always has a way of reminding me of my goal. It is very long, but it makes a lot of sense to me. What do any of you guys think?:

Well, it is a roller coaster. You guys have continuously gone back and forth with your feelings and decisions. Look back and remember..... when you found out all this was going on you asked him to stop and to be honest.
He couldn't/wouldn't--for many reasons. Then you asked him directly for a commitment and if he couldn't give it you asked him to leave.

From that point you have learned a lot and grown a lot and most importantly, gained a ton of understanding about yourself, the past, your relationship, etc.

However, during this time BOTH of you have been GIVING CONSTANT MIXED SIGNALS: You have had lots of talks and lots of tender moments. Things
have gotten a lot better in many ways and there have been some rough spots too. During this time you have acknowledged that he is obviously very
confused and unable to commit. There have been days where you've been strong and said that you understand and will give him this time and space.
Then there are other days where the wheels fall off and you snap. Because of his moments of dishonesty and because of his inability to commit to you, you have asked him several times to leave---and that prompted him to move closer to doing it. However, after that you guys had several talks and lots of good moments and even though you told him to leave (and even leave early)---you really didn't/don't want him to leave. You also have said that you want him to stay (with conditions---comittments, etc.) and at other
times you try to just roll with it and keep things up-beat and give him signs that he can stay without committing right away. He's getting and giving mixed signals too--because he says he's going to move out but doesn't. He looks for a place thinking that's what you want and you get
upset.

His confusion is concerning, confusing in and of itself, and difficult to swallow I know. "Where he is" could be because of an affair he's having...or it could be from being at rock bottom and totally at the point of giving up and then finding it difficult to actually do it....especially when he started to get what he needed from you and is not sure what to do
now--and not sure if you are 'for real'. The cause of the confusion and numbness we cannot know 100% and we may never really know for sure--but a huge percentage of it we can identify the source. How can we know this.....because he told us very clearly!

This is where I said that you've got to do some serious soul searching and DECIDE what it is that YOU REALLY WANT. Once you do that---if it's H and your marriage, then you need to decide what this means, what it's going to take and make your decision and stick to it come hell or high water. You need to come to grips with your role in this...what your values are, what's most important---CENTER AND GROUND YOURSELF and act with purpose in every situation. When you do this---you will always feel at peace deep down--you will feel confident that you are a person who acts with integrity and is living conisistently with your values. And, even when other people let you down, and the winds of life blow really hard----you will still be standing---WITH your self-respect, with your dignity and with confidence--NO REGRETS. This is true in this situation and in EVERY SITUATION.

YOU CANNOT continue to react and vascilate. You cannot snap when you are not getting what you want from him and get hot and cold in the blink of an eye. Remember, that's what's been happening all along in your marriage(from his point of view). That's what he expects from you. I think if you really love him and you want to show him how much you do--then you've got to
show it consistently over time. You can't just start out on a good, loving note and then when he doesnt reciprocate or do what you want him to do---do a 180 and go the other way. You can't despearately want him one minute and then go to 0 degrees and say you'll be fine just go the next........that's conditional love--not real love. It's that hot/cold; on/off; I want you /I
don't that he has issues with way down deep inside.

REMEMBER.......you do not know and may never know what is or isn't happening. You can't control his heart or his mind or dig down deep enough
to know 100% of what he's feeling and what his intentions are------ESPECIALLY if he's not sure himself!!!! To focus on this and to try to pin him down probably won't work. If you back him into a corner, he's going to squirm, get uncomfortable and fly. Remember, there were times
in your life where he couldn't reach you. You were numb to him and nothing he did made any difference. However, you didn't stay there forever. He probably won't either. But it did take a while.....a LONG while.

The only thing you can control is you and the way you handle and contribute to the situation. We all agree that H anxiety and his numbness goes
a long way back and was a path with many distinct milestones----it's not about her---she's just a distraction. His decision to leave and his
realization that the relationship would not work goes way back---he reached that place only after a long and difficult journey. It's going to take some time for him to snap out of it, and there is a slight chance that he may not--but the odds are in your favor.

I know it seems like it's been FOREVER and that it's taking too long----but remember---it wasn't until he was in Dallas a little over a month ago that you started to really change in a way that got his attention---you started to tell him things he'd never heard you say--the things he needed to hear and get from you, etc. You guys have reached a level of understanding and
communication that you have never had (or have not had in a long time)----but it has not been that long really---just about 2 months, right?

Take her compeletly out of it for a moment-----he hit rock bottom and was convinced that you could not and did not love him and would be better off
with someone else. Because of what's happened over the years--he honestly believes this. He's getting different signals from you now and he's not sure what that means or how he feels.

Sometimes you stuggle and are distant when he wants to be close. Sometimes he's that way. You are both still on a rough road and are not always in the 'same place' mentally and physically at the same time. That's ok.

Again--you have got to really decide what you want, what that's going to take, make your decision, put on your armour and do it.

You are in an extremely vulneralbe position right now I know. It's awkward and unconfortable. But if you really want him it's going to take extreme
self-sacrifice. You're going to have to put him first and not give in to your needs and wants. That's what love is.

If you cant do that, then there's your answer. And, that's ok too. If you snap and give up because you can't take the uncertainty of what's happening or where his heart is---then that's understandable and you have that right. It's YOUR choice. But don't expect him to come back again. If you make this choice..then you've got to stick to it just the same. You can't PUSH/PULL and expect to get what you want. It doesn't work that way.

I think about the difficulties that people go through in marriages where one spouse is in a "bad place" and the other has to endure even though they are not getting what they want or need----like when someone is seriously or
terminally ill, or when someone is mentally ill and depressed for a long period of time, or when one is serving in the miliary and they don't see
each other for years. The spouse who's on the 'GIVING' end may be about to unravel themselves. They may feel fear and extreme uncertaintly. They may get mad and be tempted to give up. They think about the 'WHAT IF'S, but do
they give up? The reality is, they could give their heart and soul and everything they have and their husband/wife could still die of cancer and
they are left exhausted, disallusioned, heart-broken and with nothing. They could sacrifice everything and their soldier husband could die or meet someone else while overseas. The fact is...you could have to stand by your husband through years of dispair for many reasons. Would you give up in these situations when it got tough--even if you knew there was a chance you could lose the race? If the answer is no, then why is this situation any different?

You know what the folks on the website say and you know what happens when an affair is going on--this situation could be as they say it is. However, you also know the history, how much he endured for you and why (to a large degree) he hit rock bottom and is numb and confused. Those are the 'knowns' in this situation, but having this history and these facts doesn't make them
easy to forget or overcome---especially to a sensitive, emotional, 'feeling'type person. And, for H, dealing with the past is not so much the
issue and him wondering if the future is really going to be any different---again, I don't think he really knows if you really love him, if he can make you happy and if he's want you want or need. Not to mention his own confusion about his own feelings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The point is...what have you really got to lose? Your marriage? If you push and he moves out will you have any more answers? Any more control? Any
more resolution?

He can't take your dignity. He can't take your faith. He can't take your self-respect.

I say hang in there. Don't snap. Don't give up. I think you're right. He's testing you. He's watching you----but it may not be for the reasons
that you think.

IF, worst case....I'm wrong about this and he totally screws you.......then you can walk away knowing you gave it your very best. With your
self-respect, with your dignity and your confidence---NO REGRETS. If he is a dishonest, cheating, selfish person-----judgement day will come. At LL and, more importantly with the man upstairs.

If you can't take it anymore then make that decision and move on. I support you. Just know, either way, regardless--...you can't go back in forth with your feelings and emotions and expect to get anything different in terms of a response from him. It doesnt work that way.

I say just pray. Don't try to take matters in your own hands and force a conclusion. God has a plan. We just don't know what it is or understand it yet!

YOU WERE RIGHT WAT!!!!

If you finish reading my last post by sundown, let me know what you think of my friend's ideas.
She's the one who spent over 3 1/2 hours on the phone with him the other day so she knows his side of everything.

I won't push the counseling issue.

I agree with about 90% of what your friend is saying because, in essence, most of what she's saying is, "Plan A and stop love busting."

I perceive she doesn't understand what Plan B is - hence her accusations to you for sending mixed signals when you ask him to leave. If you've asked him the wrong way - with angry outbursts and/or disrespectful judgements - then he IS getting mixed messages. But if you calmly asked him to leave, giving the real Plan B rationale, this shouldn't be a mixed message at all. Of course, who knows how he described this to your friend.

He IS confused - we've known that all along. But his pointing the finger at you as a source of confusion is right from the WS script.

I also disagree with this statement: "You can't desperately want him one minute and then go to 0 degrees and say you'll be fine just go the next........that's conditional love--not real love."

That's maybe sending mixed messages - if you're not in control of your emotions. But that's got nothing to do with "real love" vs "conditional love." Marital love IS conditional love. Period. If anyone disagrees with this, you also have to disagree with the core MB principle of fulfilling emotional needs as necessary to "fall in love, stay in love."

But what she maybe REALLY means here - and I do agree 100% - is that you have to do a consistent Plan A, not waver, and not love bust. Patience, time, consistency. - and NOT be in a hurry.

Bottom line - your Plan A is working. But every LB and every angry outburst sets you back a step.

WAT

Thanks for taking the time to read that and respond WAT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I perceive she doesn't understand what Plan B is - hence her accusations to you for sending mixed signals when you ask him to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have explained it to her and before she spoke to my H, she agreed that I should go to Plan B. But once she heard his side, even though the story was pretty much the same, hearing how deep his feelings were about our M, she saw things in a different light. She had lost total respect for him prior to hearing his side. Now, while she thinks he is making a mistake by giving up, she understands where he is at.

No consequences = no motivation to change anything

He will keep the status quo as long as you'll let him. I don't think you'll even come close to losing him because you ask him to leave while he figures himself out. He may be upset about it initially, but in the long run, he will respect your strength and refusal to let him continually reek havoc on your emotions.

The more the MBers principles of attaining recovery are altered, the more you lessen your chances of an honest to goodness recovery. I think at this point he knows you are commited, has seen you can change but still wants to remain comfortable and in control. If he were serious about figuring himself out, and was really in such turmoil over your past A, he'd already have himself in counseling. He doesn't want to go because he knows the counselor will tell him he has to end it with OW in order to know whether he wants to stay married or not. The distance is nothing but classic evidence of contact, just like it has been every other time in the past. I don't understand why you keep asking </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is going on? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nid,you know exactly what's going on. It's just really painful to acknowledge it and deal with it.

As always, JMHO! and all the best to you!

Thanks Mthrrhbard. I don't think he is still seeing her. WAT says maybe it is withdrawal. What do you think?

I don't think so.

I think it's the conflicted feelings WS get each time there is contact that cause them to pull away in those isolating behaviors( sleeping way to one side of the bed, back to spouse in bed, refusing intimacy).

Withdrawl is more pervasive...irritable, depressed and forlorn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong>WAT says maybe it is withdrawal.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was assuming he's ended the affair. I also said I've never seen affair withdrawal, so I'm no expert. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK, nid, I'm going fishing in Fla. with my son next week. Won't check up on you until after the 12th. I challenge you to focus on yourself and YOUR son. Make yourself more desirable by feeling better about yourself. and, NO LBs!

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Withdrawl is more pervasive...irritable, depressed and forlorn.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is these things Mthrrhbard. Just last night he was extremely irritable. I thought he was purposefully trying to make me mad. And depressed, yes he is that too. Then when he acts rudely to me, later he feels bad. Almost like he realizes he is pushing me away, although I try my best not to be emotional anymore. He was really mean to me last night and blamed it on being really tired, which he was.

WAT, I am definitely taking care of me and my son. I'm exercising a lot and looking really good! I feel better too, knowing I am doing my best and trying my hardest to save my M. If I can't, at least I will know that I did all I could do. And I know I will be okay, no matter what happens.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He was really mean to me last night and blamed it on being really tired, which he was.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most WS are depressed so they are forlorn and irritable for the most part. But I have found that when there are "bursts" of irritability, meanness, and distance it is usually an indication that WS has had contact and feels guilty. To combat their guilt they have to be mean and nasty, trying to get a negative reaction out of you, so they can justify in their minds that the contact they had was justifiable and you really are an old shrew. Of course they'll use any excuse for their meaness besides the real one, which is usually continued contact. Does he have access to a phone or computer at work?

I'm not trying to burst your bubble. I do think you are seeing things through rose colored glasses due to the fact that your H has not made a single move towards recovery. He simply sits and stalls. I don't think he's going to change anything without some sort of catalyst.

He works from home and in his car only (pharmaceutical sales). So he uses home phone, cell phone, and PC at home.

I came home today and found *67 plus her phone # on his redial. *67 would block his information on her phone. My friend thinks he called her then hung up, and he's baiting me to see if I'm still checking up on him. Otherwise, he would have covered his tracks like he used to. She thinks he wants to see how I react or if I react.

I think it could also be that he wants her to pick up the phone and maybe she's ended it with him and he knows she won't pick up if he sees his number.

Who knows? I'm not going to ask or react.

<small>[ April 02, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

*67 is also the "beam me up" signal to the Mothership.

Maybe time to stir the brains some more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Explain in English please, WAT. I don't have much sense these days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry. I was just employing an absurd explanation for an absurd behavior and trying to lead you off the analysis road.

OK, I'll try another.

Time to once again dust off WAT's Word Origins.

wayward

way - the route or path to someplace

ward - loonie bin

Thanks for the laugh WAT. Mission accomplished.

No more analyzing his crazy behavior. But I'm still going to go to Radio Shack!

I'm with mthrrhbard on this one. Well, WAT too.

I think you are deluding yourself in wanting to believe the best. This doesn't sound like withdrawal to me.

His acting like that in bed and his angry attitudes all sound like guilt to me too.
I also think it means he's had contact.

This has been my experience.

Yes, you guys may have a different history than we did and that history may be have something to do with his possibly testing whether or not you can truly change for the best. I am sure OW doesn't think you can. Maybe he's pissed because
a he'd doesn't want to believe you can change and he was convincing himself the he wanted to be gone. You have been confusing him, but not consistently enough.

You really should get to Radio Shack.

You know Momof3boys's H's OW told him he wouldn't be happy if he went back to his wife. I'd bet your H's OW says the same type of stuff. She wants him to join her and head for DV la la land. I wonder how her DV is progressing?

Doesn't hurt to still do as your friend suggested until you go to plan B; if and when you ever get proof of contact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My friend thinks he called her then hung up, and he's baiting me to see if I'm still checking up on him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that or he doesn't want someone else in her household to know he's calling. Remember, she is going through divorce proceedings and his # and/or name on her phone, even if seen by her kids( who then tell their dad),could cause problems for her.

Botton line Nid, if you H is going to be testing you when he's the one who's been messing around, you are far from coming to a place of mutual recovery. Does he actually think that after what he's pulled you aren't entitled to check up on him? Most certainly you are. Does he honestly have the notion that he's entitled to some kind of personal privacy in a marriage after he's betrayed your trust? Being fully open and having no problem being scrutinized by the BS is one of the first steps to recovery and is an indicator that WS is honestly interested in repairing the emotional damage they've caused. His job in recovery is to do everything possible to make you feel secure, even if that means coming up against an occasional false accusation and some paranoia on your part.If he's really interested in a healthy recovery he'd have no problem with you checking up on him and asking questions. That's to be expected.

Honestly, I know this is hard to hear, but the chances are very high that if he's questioning whether or not he still wants to be married or not, he's assured he could have her back in his life in a New York minute, if he gave the word.

My H was fooling himself by trying to convince himself that it was more a question of "did he want to stay married" vs. "did he want to take his affair to the next level". I think he had to fool himself to some degree because he didn't have another coping mechanism strong enough to justify the wrongness of his A. In his mind, he had to make it about something else, besides OW. Mine used the "not compatible" excuse, the "not ever really in love with you" excuse, and the "can't communicate" excuse. To him it was about me and not the feelings he was having for her. He thought this way until he went to IC, stopped acting destructively and made numerous efforts to construct a new marriage.

In the time I have been on this board, in cases where a marriage has been scarred by an affair on the parts of both partners, I have seen a miniscule amount recover without the benefit of long term marital counseling.

For me, I had to refuse to let,my (and my kids) life be effected daily, by my H's destructiveness. Affair or no affair, it was not healthy to allow the destructiveness of his indecision to continue. I figured the longer I allowed him to negatively affect the marriage, the more damage it could do and the harder it would be to fix it. He had to go. I had to know, that he knew what it felt like, to be without me. I thought that if he experienced what it was like to live without me, at least he'd never have to wonder about that again.

This is just to give an illustration of one marriage's formula for getting to the first steps of a successful recovery. There are many others found here on MBers. I post with the hope that someone out there finds something helpful in my experience.

Praying for the best for you nid.