<small>[ April 13, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: craving_peace ]</small>

Part of the issue here is that you have rationalized or changed the definition of the word love...to fit into your plan of causing pain to your children your wife, the other person and even yourself...

love is not meant to be had at any price...
love is not meant to be used at the cost of bringing great pain to others...

love is not meant to be used to justify your actions....



think there is hope for any marriage...a lot depends on what you expect from it & what it is capable of giving back.

well the truth about marriage is that it does not depend hardly at all about what you EXPECT from it....but what you PUT into it....

and not what it is capable of giving back...but what you are WILLING to give it..

marriage is not an IT...marraige is not an entity... YOUR marriage is exactly what you make it be...
you will never have a marriage as long as you continue to steal energy, emotion, and honesty from your marriage and give it to another person...

you will only have graspings and shadows of what is good in this world...
your moments of escape and feeling good will be fleeting...

they will make enemies out of the one on this earth you have vowed to love...
and the children will be drowned in the wake of pain by your actions
the children that you brought to this world...only to be hurt by the ONE person on this planet that should be protecting them...no matter how good the OW makes you feel...

you are no victim to the OP..
you choose that route over and over again..to fill what is missing in you...based on your own actions....

her words (the OP) do not have value because of you...her word are valued regardless of you...your finding such value in her words and actions is all because you place your energy and emotion into that value...
you choose to create this OP into who and what you want...
you choose to create your wife into the "opposites" to justify your continued contact with the OP....

You alone choose how much you value and cherish those in your life...
you are no victim to your choices....

I don't want to give up the OW.
You should leave your wife...
you should stand up and be decent enough to stop the pain you CHOOSE to bring to your wife each and every day....with your continued contact of pain....

You are running from yourself...
you are running from the person who could not "make" their marraige work to someone else...and rationalizing that IT is something better and special...
all on its own..

problem is where ever YOU go...
there YOU are....

ARK

My FWH's A started out as a friendship...we were next door neighbors...our families were close friends. My H and OW were stay at home parents...an appropriate friendship came way before the inappropriate part.

He never even felt attracted to her in year he knew her prior to the A...then when her M started going bad and she started confiding in her...he started feeling really bad for her (so did I), then she started asking him for adice (white knight syndrome), then looking for comfort, then she started flirting, then she started pointing out similarities between her H and me, then started asking him how he handled how I treated him...starting to get the picture???

Meanwhile..for the past year of our M we had drifted apart a little, went through a number of family crisis's, I went through a work crisis, he experienced an identity crisis....in other words (words Steve Harley and our IC used) he was a good guy who was in wrong place at wrong time and who was ripe for OW's attentions.

They both said he was not the type to have an A and would never have one again...but everything just lined up this time.

Anyway...back to H and OW...once friendship crossed line (she followed him one day and kissed him)...he started the good ole self justification thing...I was treating him badly, I didn't need him anymore, I was mean, I was selfish...she was nice, she understood him, she listened to him, she made him feel good..then at first he said to himself..well as long as we don't have intercourse then what we are doing isn't so bad.

He too felt for a short period of time that he'd met his soulmate, that they could talk about anything, that she was the best listener he'd ever met, that she thought he was awesome, that he knew her like he'd never known anyone, etc.

After dday when I started questioning my H about the specifics of his relationship with OW and specifically why he felt so close to her and how well he really knew her.

Funny thing was...in reality (much to his shock) they only had a superficial relationship. He didn't know her bday, favorite color, favorite food, maiden name, how many people she'd had sex with, how old was she her first time, what her child rearing beliefs were, etc.

IC said was all typical for fantasy land....it "feels" like you are really close to the A partner but in reality...you don't know them nearly as well as your spouse...nor do they know you as well as your S does.

Other thing was..he felt she only had his best interests at heart...thought that when he talked about his feelings or thoughts that she always gave him great advice...that she really only cared about what was best for him.

In later dissection of that with me and later his IC...found that she never gave advice that was in is best interest...only hers.

She never once said this might have a terrible effect on our children...we need to plan for this...she said they are kids..they will be so happy to see us happy again that they'll be over it in no time. Hmmm...our kids didn't know we weren't happy...our older ones always told their friends they wanted a M just like ours.

When he talked about how he felt bad for what he was doing to me...she would say that he shouldn't feel bad...after all he'd put up with my treatment or she'd just skip to another topic.

Once he asked her how she could not feel bad for what she was doing to me when I was always so worried about how her H treated her and how I always defended her..she said..because I don't really consider her my friend (this was something that struck in his craw and helped him into light a little).

Anyway...sure you're getting the idea...don't be fooled by what you are thinking now...you are in the FOG...when you come out and look back and analyze everything with a clear head...you will be shocked and amazed...you will feel STUPID...you won't be able to believe what you fell for.

My H feels like an idiot, feels guilty...is terrified by how close he came to losing me and his kids.

Feels horrible about possible long term effect on the kids...he wants to be a good example not a bad one.

He went from thinking OW was his soulmate to being disgusted by mere thoughts of her.

If you want more on his perspective...he posts under "tellthetruth".

Keep posting here...we'll try and help you clear the fog.

Wonderful post, ark!

on the edge, what you need to realize is that you're hurting EVERYONE involved by maintaining contact. You, your W, your children, and the OW. Once you really begin NC, it'll hurt you and the OW for a while, but the longer you maintain, the less the pain will be. And by making this decision, you'll stop hurting your W and children. It always amazes me that people who would have no hesitation about taking a bullet to save their children can repeat the same actions every day that cause them the most harm.

In case you haven't read the statistics, you and the OW don't have a future together. The chance of a lasting marriage growing from an A is less than 5%. Unfortunately, you probably thought "but we're different" when you read that. "We're different" is the battle cry of everyone who's in an affair. They all think it. And they all do the same things and use the same excuses.

I hope this tip is constructive for you. Don't worry about having NC for the rest of your life right now. Send OW a NC letter after you let your wife see it. Then get thru NC on that day. Wake up the next morning and repeat. Your W will help you if you let her.

Been trying very hard of how to express this without it sounding like a 2x4 or me getting one back from anyone here LOL

I want to start by saying , by being here it is a great sign, and I haven't read every response in deapth .I am sure after being here for 2 yrs they are all wonderful and anything I say could not compare .

This is alway said, to be an addiction , ok I can see that and I did plenty of drugs in life to know the cold turkey thing .
LIKE a drug you go through the withdrawl , so that is the first part N/C everyone has said, it .

I only want to add I do not think it is as hard as its made out to be . (SORRY) I get the you are IN LOVE THING ,,, But if thats so true and you REALLY REALLY belive that then you would have to be gone filing for D .

That is JMVHO , When in love , "with the ONE " no one or nothing can change that you would stop at nothing to be with that person . You would fight to make it work give all sacrafice all ...LIKE YOUR W IS!

I know every WS needs there time , but a WS needs to really understand that while doing that you are in serious danger of losing you S .

YOU may not totally understand that , this OW will wait for you ,, a M man who is telling her he wants his M ?? BUT she is a peach right? NOTHING wrong with that ? She is not out to destroy your wife and children ? NO not her /she a victom right ?

YOUR guilt I am sure is eating away at you , I saw my FWS the same way , but do not give your W pity thats low . If you are there you are there for HER !

The only resaon some one touched your heart is cause you opened up ,,, you are not opening that heart to your wife .

Your W is the women who got /gets all the real things the bills , the kids , the fixing of the house your hard day at work your mood swings ect.

Do you think through all the years these things have been something to ma turn on to her ? I don't think so .

SHE is the real ONE the one who picked up peices of your life for you who raised your kids and stood for all your mood swings and hard days .

Do you not think it wouldn't have been just as much fun and romantic for you to call yur wife to have lunch or go for coffee or come home and have sex in the afternoon on lunch . all these things that this OW is/was your W could have been all that and more any of us can .

YOU need to turn to HER and put all your efforts in to HER ! OPEN your heart to her , so she to can touch it again in away that I am sure she has touched before .

Do not think about OW emotions think about your wife , do you know who she is , ? reconnect with her .

You said in a hard time you both turned away from one another , well this is the hardest time you will ever face so turn to HER now .
What do you see before you when you look at her , ? You are in pain that I understand but if you feel hers and be with hers there is no way you can tell me that , that alone can not consume enough time for you to make OW a distant memory .

JMVO if we could learn to get as nearly ingrossed with the person right infront of your eyes this A would not be an issue ever again .

And the only way for that to happen is you need to not look around but right infront of you .

Figure out what you need from your W , and I am sure she will be more then willing to work WITH YOU to give you the love and happiness you BOTH deserve .

ote...

I see so much of myself in what you wrote. I remember the agony of making the decision you have to make.

Let me ask you a question...why did you come back to your wife? Why didn't you leave? Why do you want to give your marriage a chance?

You mentioned a "shrink". Is it yours, hers, or a MC? I'd recommend you seek good IC as soon as possible. The effect of the "addiction" can be overcome with cognitive therapy.

Keep posting. You'll have a lot of pain and confusion. Many of here have been through it.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm starting to realize I'm seriously addicted to my lover. I have promised my wife "no contact" but I've failed to keep the promise. I love the OW & have been friends for 5 yrs & lovers for a year. I really thought we had a future together. We would both like that but I want to give my marriage a chance. How does one resist this super strong addiction? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I already posted, but I want to point something else out. You could be getting a lot better advice from me and people like me except for one thing --- this site does not want to see any real POSTS about how WE feel or felt. There are just too many BS out there reading these and they have been hurt so much that they don't need to read anymore about how wonderful it felt / feels to be with someone who you think is your "soulmate" and so we all just offer advice on how we got to the point we are right now.

I had the A. I am the lowlife in my relationship. My W did not deserve what I did. I am going through a terrible withdrawel right now. It's been 5 months; but my situation is different. She's causing me legal head aches and is making efforts to destroy my business and slander my name and I can't do anything --- yet. I want to let go. I want to forget. But SHE won't let me. She has drained me of so much of my time that I ****ing hate her guts right now. I wish she would go to hell and say there.

I read some posts earlier about some WS who do not suffer from withdrawel. Personal,,y, if my W cheated on me, I don't know what would upset me more --- if she was in withdrawel for months or if she did not care at all. I mean, I think I would at least be HAPPY that she cared anough for the OM to be upset about it. What kind of jerk/***** doesn't go through withdawel? Damn! They should have just went to Vegan an screwed a prostitute!

Anyway, I wish there was somewhere people like US can post; but there isn't. So I'll offer what everone else if offering, because for the most part it is true. Your OW is a dime a dozen. So was mine. Yes, she smiles and laughs and you confide in her. But you ned to fast forward your life and look back. You need to stand at the top of your mountain and view the landscape. Where are your priorities? What is important to you? What do you have to give up in life and what to you have to fight for? What do you truly want to posses and be able to truly call your own?

I want my honesty back. I want my dignity back. I want to be in love with someone who loves me back the same way. I want someone who wants me and needs me equally. I want someone who can look me in the eyes forever and say, "I know why I am with you." I THOUGHT I LOVED THE OW. I was happy when I was with her. But there were a heck of a lot of things I did not like, a lot I did not know, and now that we are apart, all her shadows are falling over me, and I want out. I want my light back. I want to climb out of the quicks ALLOWED HER to drag me into. I want my time to be my own again.

And guess what, my friend, soon you will too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm starting to realize I'm seriously addicted to my lover. I have promised my wife "no contact" but I've failed to keep the promise. I love the OW & have been friends for 5 yrs & lovers for a year. I really thought we had a future together. We would both like that but I want to give my marriage a chance. How does one resist this super strong addiction? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I already posted, but I want to point something else out. You could be getting a lot better advice from me and people like me except for one thing --- this site does not want to see any real POSTS about how WE feel or felt. There are just too many BS out there reading these and they have been hurt so much that they don't need to read anymore about how wonderful it felt / feels to be with someone who you think is your "soulmate" and so we all just offer advice on how we got to the point we are right now.

I had the A. I am the lowlife in my relationship. My W did not deserve what I did. I am going through a terrible withdrawel right now. It's been 5 months; but my situation is different. She's causing me legal head aches and is making efforts to destroy my business and slander my name and I can't do anything --- yet. I want to let go. I want to forget. But SHE won't let me. She has drained me of so much of my time that I ****ing hate her guts right now. I wish she would go to hell and sTay there.

I read some posts earlier about some WS who do not suffer from withdrawel. Personally, if my W cheated on me, I don't know what would upset me more --- if she was in withdrawel for months or if she did not care at all. I mean, I think I would at least be HAPPY that she cared anough for the OM to be upset about it. What kind of jerk/***** doesn't go through withdrawel? Damn! They should have just went to vegas and screwed a prostitute!

Anyway, I wish there was somewhere people like US can post; but there isn't. So I'll offer what everone else if offering, because for the most part it is true. Your OW is a dime a dozen. So was mine. Yes, she smiles and laughs and you confide in her. But you need to fast forward your life and look back. You need to stand at the top of your mountain and view the landscape. Where are your priorities? What is important to you? What do you have to give up in life and what to you have to fight for? What do you truly want to possess and be able to truly call your own?

I want my honesty back. I want my dignity back. I want to be in love with someone who loves me back the same way. I want someone who wants me and needs me equally. I want someone who can look me in the eyes forever and say, "I know why I am with you." I THOUGHT I LOVED THE OW. I was happy when I was with her. But there were a heck of a lot of things I did not like, a lot I did not know, and now that we are apart, all her shadows are falling over me, and I want out. I want my light back. I want to climb out of the quicksand I ALLOWED HER to drag me into. I want my time to be my own again.

And guess what, my friend, soon you will too!

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: whiteknight ]</small>

thank you all for the support. i'm working at no contact. i had contact recently & told my wife. the problem with the final contact is that it doesn't feel final. so, the desire to go back & corrrect that...which I know is stupid ...is strong.
one more thing. i can't judge another person as poison etc....especially since i was an equal participant. so i have a little difficulty with the judge,jury executioner attitude i am getting from some on the board. perhaps you need to create a monster of the ow in your head in order to separate...or perhaps you have a different type on your hands.
i am so lucky that my wife is supporting me thru this. we are up in the middle of the night regularly dealing with this. we both need sleep.

Just wanted to quickly tell you that you did a great job by telling your wife about contact. You're being accountable with her and the two of you are starting to be a team again! I think that's wonderful. Keep it up!

OTE

You said you were having problems with judging another person as poison etc....especially since you were an equal participant. Try another angle.

Your first priority is to protect your wife and family - which you have not been doing during the A. The OW is someone who has intentionally sought to harm and disrespect your wife, marriage, and family. It doesn't matter if the OW regrets hurting your wife and family, because her actions speak much louder than words.

If you're uncomfortable judging the OW, at least stay away from her as a means to protect your wife and rescue the man you deserve to become.

I'm rooting for you.

ok so if its to soon for you to really wake up and see OW for what she really is fine .

How about lets talk about your wife . Alittle bit if her PAIN , while she IS being strong for YOU .

You said, she being great , and supporting you . Are you thanking her? are you at all trying to ask her some questions ?

Are ya asking her how she is holding up ?

are you turning any of your attention to YOUR W at all ?

Or are you making sure you only KEEP yourself busy to think about OW ?

Theres no easy way to end CONTACT , except to do it . One last ggod bye , thats not going to happen , thats putting to much time and effort into expalin to someone who in JMO has no commitment to you who you OWE nothing to .

Did you bother sitting your W down and asking her permission to have an A ? Did you say good bye to her with affection and attention when you thougth of leaving ?

If you are truely seriuos in the statement that you are goin to work on your M , could you doing something positive in that direction . In stead of only saying how much you miss OW .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The OW is someone who has intentionally sought to harm and disrespect your wife, marriage, and family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this will always be a bone of contention on this board. regardless of how it actually happened, OP's are perceived as scheming manipulators. Maybe they even drew up a plan of attack complete with Powerpoint presentations and everything!

What the BSs so often fail to see is that we, the FWSs, are the only ones that really know how it went down. We know who pursued whom, who kissed whom, who called whom.

The reality is that the FWS is reluctant to demonize the OP because they know they are every bit as culpable.

Our thinking goes: If we acknowledge the OP was a scheming manipultor, and we behaved in the same manner, doesn't that make us scheming manipulators, too? If I am a scheming manipulator, then I am a danger to my family and they might be better off without me. Maybe I should leave and hook up with another scheming manipulator like the OP, because that's all I deserve.

So, bottom line. It did not help me AT ALL for my wife or anyone else to run down the OW. Not because I still cared for her, but because I saw myself in what she did. I applied everything that was said about her to myself.

Low

Low,

I actually thought I was suggesting an alternative to demonizing the OW by focusing on protecting the spouse and family.

I'm a fresh BS, DDay 2-13. I'm pregnant too so let's just say my hormones are out of wack. The A has made me feel that if a burglar broke into my house, my WH would throw me in the path of the bugler to save himself. Breaking NC would make me feel disposable as well.

Sometimes helping other people is a good way to heal. It would be nice if protecting the BS from further hurt could be motivation for NC, but this is probably naive. I don't know...

The difference I think that some of us BS's feel in relation to our WS's and the OP is this:

Yes, we may find that the OM/OW are contemptable,abhorrent people and yes we are angry but we have not "invested" years and years of time,love,caring,memories,children,dreams and prayers,etc with the OP.The action(s)of the OP is a direct affront to the very wellbeing of our marriages,our children,our families and our selves.If they were not such people they would take a stand and walk away from our married spouses and not enter into a relationship with them or end one that they are in.

Yes,our WS's haved committed the same acts more or less BUT we have made committments to those that we love and for better or worse we will always place them first in our hearts and minds,bodies and souls.The very nature of what brought us together as a married couple is that for which we FIGHT FOR.The OP has no "rights" to anything in an A.

As long as you try to paint this OP as a saintly,goodly,moral woman etc etc,then you fail to realize what her true intentions are.You cannot dismiss what she has been a part of and continues to help destroy.


O

Well put OCTOBER.

Other issue brougt up is veiwing your self the same as OP (WS) .

Yes I can unserstand that very well , H always says OW had no committment to you or our children , so she is a very nice person who fell inlove with the wrong one .

I get it but , its just another illusion for the WS to not see the OP , charactor .

On the EDGE said, this OW said, she will wait for him .

This is a statement of someone who is knowingly seeking the destruction of ones M .

This IS someone who is making a statement that they are knowingly and willing wanting to be part of the pain to his W.

HOw can a WS not see that this person is SELFISH .

It all comes back to DO YOU WANT TO WORK ON YOUR M OR NOT ! ?

If you are then you need to through yourself into the repair of it , and sorry but the biggest part is , STOP worring about OW .

If she was SUCH a big girl and knew the fire she was playing with then she needs to deal with the possiable out come of a MM may leave as fast as he came .

He could of been the one who presude this , but either way OW whent in with eyes open , He was MARRIED , it is that cut and dry . FOG OR NO FOG the facts .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she was SUCH a big girl and knew the fire she was playing with then she needs to deal with the possiable out come of a MM may leave as fast as he came .

He could of been the one who presude this , but either way OW whent in with eyes open , He was MARRIED , it is that cut and dry . FOG OR NO FOG the facts .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent points, 3. I agree 100%. One of the most difficult things for me after the affair was learning to let the OW own her own part in this...her own pain.

This is a very astute statement on your part.

Just to clarify something earlier as well. I wasn't meaning that the BS shouldn't see the OP as a danger to their marriage. Of course you're rightly going to. I was only meaning to say that I don't think it helps the WS if you insist that they have to see them the same way in order to recover.

My OW also told me that she would wait for me. The 'grapevine' has it that she hasn't been involved in any serious relationships since our A ended. I have to be vigilant about NC and not let my guard down. I am thankful that OW has chosen NOT to actively pursue me. Fending off attempts to see me would've made NC harder than it was...and it was hard enough.

I don't dwell on what's happening with her anymore. I did go through a time when I worried if she was ok. But then I realized the very thing you said...she was big girl and knew what she was getting into. She's a big girl now and can take care of herself.

Low

So EDGE - where are ya ?

I hope you are still reading and going to post .
The thing about being here at MB is to know there are many who have been in both you and your W position and opoins and veiws of others who share in what the 2 of you are going through can open up many doors for you in your recovery .

The things I liked the most is it is not out of the BOOKS (ic) counsoling . Many may think that weird but I relate to people better when I KNOW they been there done that .

YA know ?

So hang around , and exspress yourself , none of no one another so say anything you want .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> [QUOTE]


Our thinking goes: If we acknowledge the OP was a scheming manipultor, and we behaved in the same manner, doesn't that make us scheming manipulators, too? If I am a scheming manipulator, then I am a danger to my family and they might be better off without me. Maybe I should leave and hook up with another scheming manipulator like the OP, because that's all I deserve.


Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but, how convenient for you! I'll bet your wife knows better than to say anything bad about the woman who tried to destroy her life!

When I think about the differences between myself and my husbands OW there is one thing that really strikes me as a huge difference. I sat accross a table from her telling her that the things my h was saying to her were untrue. I showed her a card (a very loving card) that he had given me just 2 weeks prior to me finding out about her. I told her that we had problems but they were fixable if she would stay out of our lives. With tears in my eyes I begged her not to take my husband. I told her "I can't lose him". She said that his plan to leave had nothing to do with her, that she wanted nothing more than his friendship (what she wanted was his PAYCHECK) she said that the things he had written me were "personal" between my husband and I and that she didn't want to read anymore. I knew that she would have to admit that our marriage WASN'T over if she read the letter he wrote me, and she wouldn't be able to claim "friendship" if she knew that and still wanted him to move in with her. If ANY woman sat accross from me with tears in her eyes and begged me not to destroy her life there is NO WAY that I would do it! He could be a butt nekkid Brad Pit clutching a million dollars and promising me forever in the life of luxury and I would still say NO, absolutely NO!

I'm taking the AA approach to this NC by taking things one day,even one minute at a time.Sometimes the one minute approach is the most effective in resisting making that fateful phone call. I am in total sync with the one who said we the WS can't condemn the ow beause we are juat as guilty of the crime. also, ( I hate to mention forgiveness)if you are Christian for example you know that God Himself does not condemn so who are we?
I am not yet 100% committed to the marriage working but I am in the fake it til you make it mode. We,at my encouragement signed up for Retrouveille(sp?) a marriage encounter for marriages in crisis. Wish us luck.
Thanks to all for your support.