Good luck on the marriage encounter.I really hope it helps the both you and your wife.

Regarding the OW *again.If she were to repent for her "sins" and wish redemption than her actions would certainly warrant forgiveness.How can she do that? By letting you go and finding herself an UNmarried man.She has the choice,as do you,to do the right thing in God's eye's.


O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but, how convenient for you! I'll bet your wife knows better than to say anything bad about the woman who tried to destroy her life!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear the pain in your post, but I don't understand this statement.

If it means what I think it means, you've completely missed the point.

To clarify the point I think you missed:

It is not necessary or helpful to insist that your FWS come to view the OP the same way you do.

I did not say that YOU could not express how YOU felt to your H. My wife fairly regularly castigates the ex-OW. She has learned not to insist that I join in on it because it ends in a fight.

Again, your response just doesn't make any sense to me in the context of this discussion.

The tone of your post is very disrespectful and sarcastic. I've been here long enough to overlook it because your pain drives you to lash out.

I'm trying to provide you some insight into what goes on the WS head. It's quite likely that it's going to piss you off sometimes. I won't apologize for being honest. I owe that to those here who have helped me so much.

However, I'd offer you this - just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can't learn from it.

I can see that the fondness OTE still has for his OW really bugs you, but that's where he is right now regardless of whether you think it's right for him to be there or not. Any advice that can be condensed to "Hey, you shouldn't be feeling that way - stop it!" is at best useless and at worst counterproductive.

I think the best way to approach your WS at this point:

1) No LBs - listen to them
2) Acknowledge their feelings are their reality right now - make no judgements about them (crazy as they may be).
3) Continue to love them, even if you don't understand them.

They have a lot to work through to recover their sense of identity. No amount of harping about the wrongness of their affair will make it go faster.

The best way to appraoch your BS:

NO CONTACT
HONESTY
ACKNOLADGE there pain that YOU choose to cause them
COMMIT to your M
AND WORK ON YOUR M , NOT FAKE YOUR WAY THROUGH IT

On the Edge- I am happy to here that you are making a step , in the derection of MC .

But it makes me said, to here that last comment something about faking your way through it .

PRETENDING will help no one , I can understand if you are a WS that is trying and really truely commited to your M and want to move forward and get help .

BUT are you sitting there saying to yourself :

"I love OW and I always will , but hey this will hurt my family so let me LEARN to fake this M it may not be that BAD I will just HOLD on to my feelings for OW .

I am sorry but there is a difference , JMHO but if this is how your approaching it then you should just risk it all and go be with OW .

AND WHEN it fails , and your W has found someone who will respect her you can then treuly understand what you've lost.

LOW- I understand what you are exspressing but in the same respect everyone here post as they feel , yes WS can relate better to one another and have alittle more compassion to unserstand what the WITHDRAWL process is like .

JUST as a BS can point out things of FOG that they see better . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So back to OTE .

OTE-

I just wanted to say thanks for starting this thread, because I really needed to read it. I needed to be reminded of some things.

CW

sounds like I've inspired the understanding of some & disdain of others on this thread. It's good for me to hear it all. Let me say something about the "fake it til you make it" comment. OUr counselor said you can't wait for the love to come back on it's own. You have to take action through caring behaviours & then see if the feelings are there. So even if I don't "feel" like working at the marriage I have to consider I'm under the influence of the FOG. Therefore why not do what it takes to get back to the reality of my marriage instead of a foggy view. Wouldn't it be a shame if I went to the ow to find later I acted under the influence of the FOG?
Thanks for your replies.
ote

"Wouldn't it be a shame if I went back to the OW under the influrnce of the FOG:"

See this comment bothers be , it stands out to me that your trying to say " well I tryed to fact it with my W and I must not be FOG so there for I love OW "

Your not supposed to be trying to prove to yourself that you are treuly in love with OW , Your supposed to be understanding that you took your M for granted and it was your chioce to turn to OW , there for you never turned to your W in time of NEED.

It takes a bigger person to work to see what can be fixed then to look for an outlet .

I here what your saying and trying to follow you on the FAKE thing .BUT WHY do you need to fake being kind or caring .SMALL baby steps .

YOU don't have to turn around and be the OH my god I LOVE YOU H , you can cook together, clean off the table toghether , go for a walk together .

PLAY cards , ect. Do you not rember anything from the begining of you and your wifes relationship ?

Go back to those things there not fake , there the begining where the IN LOVE FEELING started.

Also think of all the hard things that happened in your M , who was always there at the end of the day .

Think of the birth of your children .

I get those addicted thoughts of OW , but I am sure if for every fun thing you started doing with her there are just as many you can stop and think of 10 with your W .

In the beging all freindships and relationships are NEW and exciting , but the point of M it is a package , the house comes, money problems, kids, illness , blah blah .

So either you understand that this is where the package is or you won't even be able to fake it and there for you will still remain in FOG .

KEEP working and reading , stay open minded and N/C at all .

GET some pictures of you and W in that office some older ones from the time you started dating then some family ones and so on .

This is a hole complete life be yourself and allow your W to be herself , if you can be yourself then you will see the love she has for you and in that the love you have for her .

DON"T make this so much about the OW , and what out come it will have for OW down the line .

YOU shouldn't be playing lets see if I can fake it and if nit then OW is standing by .
IF thats the case go to OW and play house , and see if loosing your W is worth it . YOUR W should be 2nd to no one ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by on the edge:
<strong> Wouldn't it be a shame if I went to the ow to find later I acted under the influence of the FOG? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I took this totally opposite and I have to agree with OTE. Yes, it would be a shame if you went back to OW and eventually woke up and realized that you returned to her because of the fog. You will have realized you made the wrong decision and it will be too late.

I have heard several WS saying something like, "what if I try to work on my marriage and then it fails and I've lost the OP?" Well, look at it this way: What if you ditch your marriage for OP and then find out you were wrong and it's too late to rebuild your marriage because your spouse has moved on?

What a horrifying nightmare that would be, eh? So the question in these cases, really, is: looking at your life rationally over the years, who has had more of a place in your life? Whose impact would have been more missed if you could erase them from your life as if they had never been there? Could you more easily erase your spouse, or OP?

Your counselor is right in one aspect: Love is not a feeling, it is an action. As we love our spouse, the feelings come along for the ride. As they love us back (i.e., meet out needs via actions) then it becomes easier for us to do the same (more action) and the feelings intensify.

~ Snow

I think it is important that more WS speak out on these boards so BS understand where we are coming from. I would love to sit back and demonize the OW. Believe me, I have a ton of reasons for doing so. And my W has every reason in the world to hate her and accuse her of being a manupulative wench who stole me away from her and the family. But the truth is, I was a liar. I led the OW on. I told her things she wanted to hear. At the time, I was being honest with OW. I thought I loved her. I thought she and I had a future together. I wasn't happy with my W. I was enjoying living in my fantasy world.

But then I saw the light and I broke it off. I now see what is truly important in life.

But to all BS out there; I know the truth is hard to swallow, but your WS was a 50/50 partner in the pain you are feeling now. If it wasn't THAT OP, it would have been another. Believe me. Yes, the OP might be a monster in your eyes, but your WS helped create that monster.

I understand being "addicted" to the OP. It is a tough habit to break. But it can be broken. Time is the answer. Time must pass. And you need something else to look forward to in life. Plan ahead. Build on the stable and loving relationship you have neglected for so long. Affairs don't last. True love does. Look at the OW and your W. Which one is truly the love you want and need for the rest of your life? Which is real and which is the fantasy?

<small>[ April 03, 2004, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: whiteknight ]</small>

OTE,

If it helps to hear from a FWS, here goes...

I am FWW of an EA.

I know it is difficult to stay away from the OW, but it is the ONLY way to go if you want to remain married. I know how you feel. Because the OW is meeting your needs, you feel good when you are with her, and you are addicted. The feelings are very euphoric, but the point is that they are feelings, just feelings. The longer you stay away from the OW, the less addicted you will be.
Think of it like a drug addiction...people who are addicted to drugs cannot be around drugs, they have to stay completely away from them. What helped me was staying away from the OM, telling my husband, committing to my marriage, sharing my needs with my husband and not the OM, and prayer. To repeat, it is essential that you stay away from the OW.

The FWS's here know how you feel. Our circumstances may be different, but the feelings are the same.

It is an addiction, a very strong one like you said, but you can break it by staying away from the OW. You can. I'll be praying for you & your wife.

<small>[ April 03, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Rayann ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by on the edge:
<strong> So even if I don't "feel" like working at the marriage I have to consider I'm under the influence of the FOG. Therefore why not do what it takes to get back to the reality of my marriage instead of a foggy view. Wouldn't it be a shame if I went to the ow to find later I acted under the influence of the FOG?
Thanks for your replies.
ote </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been so impressed with the intelligence and strength of some our newly recovering WS' on this board. Statements like this elicit AWE in me because it indicates a level of thinking that refuses to give into powerful - albeit wrongheaded - emotions in favor of doing the right thing. Logic supercedes emotions.

OTE, I know that you know what is right and are doing it, even though it is not easy at all. I applaud your efforts and assure you it will pay off in the end. One of these days, when the addiction wears off, you will look back and be very happy you were man enough to do the right thing, I promise you.

I applaud your efforts as well. Intellectual assent to your situation is a first step to rectifying it. I think so much of our stress and anxiety comes from the various components of our "selves" being out of sync with each other. Our intellect tells us what's happening. our emotions tell us something different and our moral selves are tossed about in the storm created between the two.

Seeking harmony in all of these should be our internal goal. Honesty with ourselves and our spouses goes a long way towards keeping those internal waters calm.

Concerning 'fake it till you make it' - some seem put off by this, but we all do this at one time or another. I go through periods when I really don't like being around my kids...but I "know" I love them and I "know" I'll get past this mood. So, I continue to act like I love them even when I don't feel loving towards them.

In a marriage, sometimes all you have to work with is the committment. You have to starting acting in a loving way to rebuild love bank balances - even if you don't "feel" the love. Create the environment that gives love a chance to bloom.

JMHO, Low

Snowbelle,
I meant the comment about avoiding making decisions while in the FOG the way you took it.
I am able to tell my wife how I'm feeling & what I'm doing to avoid contacting the ow. My w is extrordinarily compasionate for which I am sooo grateful. She had a meltdown last night which included major lovebusters but I figure I have to take my medicine. Unfortunately it set me way back but I guess that's part of the process eh? More of a bunch of switchbacks than a straight path. I'm not out of the woods..I only hope I can make amens to my family in this lifetime.
Thanks for all the encouragement.
OTE

Hang in there OTE. This whole thing hurts.

My WH made an anology to me last week, that hurt in the moment, but made some sense later.

He said he was facing so much pain and dissappointment in our M, that it was like finally, something popped. Something cracked. Like a bone breaking. Like when you break an arm. He can even remember where he was when it happened. It was just a breach, where, he was not sure he wanted to be here M to me anymore.

My reply to that, was, that at that point he had two choices.

Choice 1:
Get to a "Dr.," (God); get help "setting the break" (counseling, advice from marriage experts, pastor, supportive Christian friends); and go through the pain of physical therapy, healing etc (and I say PAIN, because, any marital unhappiness, especially situations that are so painful that you would rather leave the relationship or enter into an A, will take some time, energy, compromise, and focus to change, and change is not easy on a good day, let alone in an unhappy place relationally). After all is said and done, you will know you did the right thing. You will be healed. You will no longer be in a situation where you are in danger of breaks. You will be whole, healed, healthy.

Choice 2:
Run the "broken bone" through the shredder. Get a mallot and just completely obliterate the bone, into a million pieces. Or break the other arm too. That is what the A did to the M. Miraculously, it can STILL be healed. God can do miracles that make the mess from an A look like no big deal...raising people from the dead, instant physical healing, etc. But there will still be some pain involved in the healing...maybe more so...because the BREAK is so much more serious now. This won't be easy. But if you don't do the work of healing this, you will be a BROKEN man. I don't say this to demonize OW, or anything else. I say this so you can see how NOT ending the A will not only hurt OW, it will hurt your W, kids, and ultimately, DESTROY you. Because it will be a total BETRAYAL of the your self.

Day by Day, minute by minute, whatever it takes...you have to do this to heal yourself. A healed M will be the great fringe benefit.

:-)