Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted in a long time, just been lurking. But I feel like I'm reaching a breaking point, and figured that meant I could use some advice.

H and I have been back together for about 3.5 months now. For the most part, things are going pretty well. We see a C every week, are communicating much better, H is affectionate again. He talks about our future now (on our anniversary last August he said he didn't think we'd make it to #7). He told me and C his goal as far as working on our communication is for us to be able to tell each other anything without getting upset or defensive. The other day I was late meeting him for lunch and he said he was almost in tears thinking something had happened to me. So what's the problem, you ask?

My problem is the continued contact with OW. The contact is through email (she's in another state) and she calls him at work every 2-3 weeks. He tells me when she calls. He says he expects that contact will just eventually fade away (her calls have gotten less frequent between Jan and March). He says each call means a fight between OW and OWH so she doesn't call often. Also, my H currently shares an office, so he can't speak freely when she does call.

We've talked about this, both with the C and on our own. H has said he's in a much different place now than he was prior to our separation. He says he knows now they wouldn't work out and he doesn't want to break up their family. His feelings are not as intense as they were before and so their contact is not like it was during the height of their A. During my IC sessions, C has admitted he preferred there was NC (has told my H there should be NC), but says he does see a difference in the way my H talks about the OW now and has tried to get me to focus on the things my H is doing that show he's trying. C has said he's worried that trying to force H to do something will only backfire. But I feel like I'm being walked on.

I'll throw in here that my H's relationships prior to M had this "hanging on" quality. Most of his ex-GFs and H would keep in touch after they broke up (H was always the one doing the breaking up). This would last for awhile and they would eventually lose touch. This is totally opposite of my experiences (and I think most people's) where any type of friendship after a breakup usually doesn't happen.

About once a month I'll have a conversation with H and ask about the frequency of the emails (to get an idea if it is dying off). In Feb, he said they emailed several times a week. I asked if they still said I love you to each other, he said yes. While the calls have gotten less frequent (only 2 in March), last week my H said they email pretty much everyday now (except maybe weekends). I should also mention this email is a seperate account that I don't have access to.

I am getting to my limit of being able to take this. I think about it now everyday and get either enraged or depressed. I end up in tears several times a week thinking about this (not in front of H). By the time we separated last October I felt completely shattered. Plan B worked for me in that I was able to reclaim most if not all of my self-esteem and self-confidence. Now I feel like I'm slipping backwards and I promised myself I wouldn't go there again.

It's also been bothering me that I feel as if my H has absolutely no idea how much he has truly hurt me. That if he did, he wouldn't still be in contact with OW. He agreed last week to read After the Affair (I thought this gave the WS a pretty good idea of how traumatic the experience is to a BS). He hasn't touched it yet.

I guess what I want to know is how others have dealt with this. He is doing alot of the "right" things that a WS trying to make it work should do. Things really are 100 times better now than they were before we separated. But this continued contact is starting to have a major effect on my continued efforts. I have lost interest in emailing or talking to him while he's at work because I feel like that's where/when he communicates with her, and I don't want any part of him then (I know, that probably doesn't make any sense). I don't want to hear him say "I love you" anymore because it doesn't mean as much to me since I know he's still saying it to her (at least as of mid-Feb he still was).

Anyway, sorry to ramble on so long. I really would appreciate any ideas, suggestions, advice, etc. (I didn't post this in Recovery because I know alot of people would say we're not in recovery since there is still contact.)

Trying

PS - To head off any questions, before we got back together H knew there was supposed to be NC, however a NC letter was never sent.

trying32,

Whew, I'd be reaching my breaking point, too.

I think it's time to be radically honest with your H and tell him how continued contact is depleting your love bank and impacting your ability to act lovlingly toward him during working hours. Also how it's cheapening the "I love you"s that he gives you.

I also think it's a good idea to review exactly what NO CONTACT is and review the contents of the Plan B letter if one was ever sent. This isn't even something you can POJA because it's not negotiable. He really needs to write a NC letter and you need to review it and you need to send it (or send it together).

You guys need to POJA how he will handle contact in the future. i.e. he will put a rule on his email so that he doesn't see her emails but they are forwarded to you. He will tell you of any contact she makes by phone. Things like that.

You need to discuss whether or not it's appropriate for one spouse to have an email account that is off-limits to the other spouse. Every person on this board will say NO, NOT APPROPRIATE but you can't just storm in demanding things from your H.

This is a tough situation - the big risk here is that he'll just SAY there is NC and will begin hiding information and lying again. That's why I suggest having the emails forwarded to you and doing a POJA wherever you can.

I hate to say it, but you might need to do a kick-butt Plan A and think about a Plan B in the future if he won't let go of her. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

trying32,
I can totally relate to where you are. I found out about my H's A in November '03. He moved a few weeks later and came home just b4 Christmas. I thought we were on some kind of road to recover and them WHAM! I find out two weeks ago that they are still seeing each other, talking to each other, being intimate together.

I couldn't even comprehend how this could happen, not once, but twice. You'd think I'd be more aware the second time around <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , but I guess not. I know this is hard...My H is very much the same way by remaining 'friends' with ex's. I really don't understand it, but it's never posed a problem until now.

I keep urging the NC and have asked him to write a letter to her instead of seeing her. Unfortunately, I don't think he's ready to do let her go, but I'm not sure. He says he loves me and wants this to work and wants to be in love with me again... but ...he's just not sure what the future is going to bring.

Then she calls and he's destroyed again! He saw her yesterday and says they've agreed it's done because 'she can't do this anymore'. Well what about ME? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Don't I get a thought in this? I want so badly to reconcile with my H and have an amazing, strong, loving M, but if she won't leave and he won't let her go I'm not really sure what to do.

I hope this all works out for you and me both. It seems we're in the same boat and it's sinking fast! Hang in there - you are a strong person (made obvious by your commitment to your M and H)!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the quick reply Turtlehead!

I've been thinking that I really need to let my H know what this is doing to me and consequently to us. I've told him in the past that continued contact hurts me, but it doesn't seem to be enough to make him stop. It's so frustrating since we've talked about inappropriate friendships and knowing your boundaries, but he still communicates with her.

As far as agreeing to what he should do about future contact, how do you get to that point when he doesn't seem to want to end the contact in the first place? It's like he thinks he can keep her as a friend. I have been working on making the changes I needed to make, but I feel like he's not really doing anything. Isn't no contact the biggest thing he could do to show me he's really serious about trying to work on things??? I think it is. So the little voice inside my head tells me he must not be really serious about it.

I am thinking about writing a letter to him. I could write it all down, let him read it, and then sit down to talk about it. That way I'd be sure to get everything I want to say out. My H says he wants us to focus on us, but I'm having alot of trouble doing that since she's still in the picture. I think this is getting to me because it's been three months and I don't really see it tapering off.

I have an appt with my C tomorrow. I plan on focusing just on this and making sure he understands how much this is really bothering me. The C gives us a topic to discuss each week, I wish he'd make this one.

My birthday's in a few weeks. My H has asked if there's anything special I want. I feel like telling him there's only one thing I want and it won't even cost him a penny to give it to me.

Trying

Hey SIL. We posted at the same time. I can sympathize with where you are with your H. Last year, 1.5 months after DDay, I found out OW was on a business trip with my H. A trip I was supposed to be with him on, but he had asked me not to go so he could have some time to think. Turned out OW met him in CA. That was just as bad as DDay #1 for me because I had started to really try and trust him again, because he had looked me in the eye and swore (several times, too!) that he wasn't meeting her.

I don't know if this will help you or not, but this is how my WH thought about it at the time: He saw it as a continuation of the same affair/betrayal/deception, and was actually surprised at how upset I got (talk about FOG!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I (just like you) saw it as a whole new betrayal and major setback.

I hope your H wakes up and sees what he's doing to you and your M. After our separation, my H said that he realized how much he loves me and that our M had alot of good in it and he's not ready to give up on it. I just don't understand how he thinks keeping her around is going to help the situation.

If I have to go to Plan B again I guess I will. Right now I just feel like if it comes to that again, I might just give up. My inner voice is almost shouting at this point that I deserve better.

Trying

trying,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as agreeing to what he should do about future contact, how do you get to that point when he doesn't seem to want to end the contact in the first place? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Writing a letter might be a good idea. I personally like writing letters because I can make an outline and fill in the details and that way I'm sure to cover all points. In a verbal conversation I'm afraid I'll leave something out or run in circles.

That said, I've only written one or two letters to my H and they made him so angry (due to miscommunications) that he forbade me to write any more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now I put my little "outline" on a sheet of paper and lay it down beside me to be sure I don't omit anything, but the actual exchange of info is 100% verbal and impromptu.

The sticky part about your situation, as I see it, is that it is over something non-negotiable (NC). So it's not like you can sit down and say "Honey, I need your help in working out a solution to this problem, a solution we can both live with." What to do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> How do you avoid making a demand?

If continued contact and the continued "I love you"s are unacceptable to you (and I imagine they are), then you need to draw some boundaries. But before you do that, you need to figure out what the consequences are if those boundaries are not respected. Also you need to figure out how you'll even know whether those boundaries are crossed.

Hopefully someone else will chime in here. I think you have to do SOMETHING because right now let's face it, he's just being a cake eater. I just don't know WHAT has to be done.

Trying,
I am really sorry for the pain you H is causing you. I will get right to my thoughts. I think you are being way to gracious on the contact. It is keeping him in the fog. Has contact ever ended? It seems to me, from a male perspective, that this is an ego boost for your H. You said he always did the breaking up. How would he feel if you rejected him? How did he feel in the first plan B? He seems to be in control.

What really troubles me is that the reason he says it won't work is that he does not want to break up another family???? He has already done that to you and OW family. Does OW H know about this? If not, you need to find a way to tell him. Also, this is happening at work, which is way outside your control. He needs to know that a betrayal is defined as doing somthing in a purposeful way to someone who trusts you. Just b/c he is honest with you doesn't mean he can continue to do it.

Also, your appeal to him about how it hurts you won't have an affect until he breaks contact. It can't sink in b/c OW makes him feel good. Since you are in MC, what do they say? Are you in separate MC. If so, I think that's a major problem. He is not being honest with you and himself. He needs to be held accountable for his actions. Is their a family member or friend who can help him be accountable? This is just way too easy for him and he is in an addiction. Please remember, there is no excuse for his behavior. No matter the issues between you and him, there is no good reason for his behavior.

Keep fighting for your M. Right now you are the only one who is thinking clearly. Let him know the contact is killing you and it is unacceptable. Ask him more often about contact. Also, try to be the one who makes him feel good emotionally. I'm sorry, but you are in a competition of sorts. You can win this. You are with your H every day. Meet his EN's as much as possible. Don't cling, grovel or beg. I know it's painful for you, but if you want to save your M, you need to do the things to win him back. He need to see the woman he fell in love with.

I see your biggest hurdle is the ease that he has making contact. He will have to decide to stop. I think he will, but it will take time. You won't be in recovery until contact is broken.

Christ's Love,
Roman121

Thanks for your post Roman. I think you are right about me being too gracious on the contact, which is probably why I'm starting to feel walked on again. Contact has never really endded, as far as I'm concerned. They may go a few days without it, but there's no attempt not to do it. My H says they try not to email as much, who really knows?

As for him realizing it won't work with OW, I didn't mean the reason he thinks it won't work is because he doesn't want to break up a family. There's alot of reasons he knows it won't work (just didn't bother listing them all out) AND he doesn't want to seperate the kids from either parent. My H's father had an affair and left for OW when H was six, he doesn't want to do that to OW's kids.

The OWH supposedly knows when she calls and according to my H they get in a fight every time she calls. I do not know if OWH knows about the emails, he's probably in same situation as me (knows they email but doesn't have access to account). I don't really consider OWH an ally. He was willing to have an open M if OW only saw my H. Last summer, my H, OW, and OWH made an agreement for OW to meet my H in CA so they could have closure (that obviously worked so well), and then called them in CA to warn them I had found out (long story how) and offered to lie to me about it. Anyway, regardless of whether he's finally grown a backbone or not, he disgusts me as much as OW. I don't really want anything to do with him.

As for the MC, we go to same C for IC and also have occasional joint sessions. C gives us topics for discussion/assignments each week. This method has seemed to work for us. C is against contact, and actually told me today it is up to me what my tolerance of this is. C knows (as do I) that when it comes down to it, H is going to have to be the one to decide to stick to NC, I can't control him. C pointed out that on the same note, H can't control what I do as far as my reaction to his continued contact (give up, leave, etc.). We both are happy with our C, he is very pro-M and continues to believe we can save the M. One of H's assignments this week is to start reading After the Affair.

I guess I am hoping that once he starts reading that, he may get a better understanding of how hurtful his continued contact is, that this is a continuation of the betrayal. I guess we'll see.

Thanks for the responses!

Hi tryin,
I just wanted to check in to see how things were going with your H? Is he still in contact with the OW? I am believing that mine isn't and hasn't been in a few days. I'm just trying the day at a time tactic and not getting to invested in this just in case the bottom drops out.

I hope that things all work out for you. I'm pulling for ya! Keep us posted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just figured I through alittle something in here. The topic of N/C and yet being in recovery was what I went through the longest .

I agree with what C said, about if you demand it that it might set WS way back and also looking at the positive that he is doing .

But trueth be told here , is there trueth at all . Is this another way to have his cake and eat it 2 . ? I know I hated that when anyone said, it to me , cause H was doing other things to rebuild .

BUT , Just in my situation I can tell ya it will never be enough as long as the contact is there.

YOu will feel human , and that is , that you will feel as if you are competeing and the longer this goes on the worse it will be for your personal recovery after N/C is in place .

I went through the SHE will fade off , when she is ready thing FOR 17 MONTHS I tried demanding , I cryed , I shut up . I did it all .

The only thing I didn't do was get tough and set a limit .

N/C by this time or your out of here see ya .

EACH time he would be nicer to me, respond to me , affection to me . He just wanted me to hang in there.

Well I did , it sucked the LIFE OUT OF ME ! its taking alonger time in my belief to heal for this reason .

CONTINUED contact is horriable , please speack to the C and your WS again then as well as you need to be understanding so does he to know that everyone has there limits . You are only human .

E-mail passwrds should be yours , nothing to hide hide nothing at all .

FREINDS don't say I LOVE YOU > all the time .

tryin & 3isacrowd,

As much as I hate to admit it, if there is still contact, there is no recovery. NC = chance at recovery. If your H, along with mine, is unwilling to give up contact, I'm beginning to think then THEY have forced us into Plan B. That's for our own safety and sanity.

Back to the old 'cake eater' tale... If he wants to have his cake & eat it too, then someone needs to take the cake away. I feel in my heart that my H's OW could never truly make him happy. If she was a kind, responsible person, she wouldn't have done this. She has a 4 y/o who has met my H as a 'friend of Mommy'. Kids are WAY smarter that we give credit for and I assure you he sees right through that. If you are a single mom, and you are dating, under no circumstances would I allow my child to meet a guy unless I knew it was definately a committed relationship.

I posted another thread and as I said, I don't think there has been contact between H & OW since this past Sunday. However, that's only based on my feelings and his cell phone records. He could be talking to her from home when I'm at work, or from his work, I don't know. I know she's e-mailed him at work before so that could be going on as well.

Hang in there tryin... you just have to follow your heart and do whats true and right for you. You'll know when it's time for Plan B (at least I hope we will). Keep believing in yourself!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />