I don't know much about going through this devestation. I've dealt with it amazingly. I didn't have MB when it happened. Chasing for answers after the affair I stumble here. Wow
this GREAT. Thank you guy!

What are signs of fog? What is the fog. I want to know more on how to deal with my H problem. He's not a talker I have to spoon feed everything out of him.

I want to believe and I see he is changing I just realize that the ow works in his work area. She ofcourse is giving a hard time! So I do not want to push him away. What's the FOG and How do I deal with it

Spacecadet,

As I understand it, "fog" is a catch-all term used to describe the illogical things a WS will say. Things like "I love you but I'm not in love with you" or "We're just friends" or "I didn't buy her a gift that was just a sweater".

Heh, this could be a fun thread if we post our most humorous fogese sayings here. Our most outlandish, unbelievable ones. Let's see... mine would probably be

"How could I send her chocolates? She's diabetic!" (he did, 'cause he didn't know)

Well, if you want to know what the fog is, keep reading here.

WS's continue to say things that don't make sense to a normal person. They are addicted, and act like an addict. The most important thing for them is getting their "fix". They will give up their spouse, children, anything to maintain contact.

They will rewrite the marriage history. They will blame spouse. The list goes on and on.

Here are some of the FOGLAND lines I got...

I never loved you

Our marriage was never good to begin with

I love you but not like THAT

We never had anything in common and the OW and I are soulmates

The sex is GREAT with OW

I never want to see my kids again

I married you because YOU wanted to get married not me

I had kids cuz YOu wanted to have kids not me


Those are just a very few of the lines I got from my WS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

This was posted on Way2's website. It's the best explanation I know:

When the 'dumb answers' thread was started, I had trouble restricting myself to two posts. There were about 137 dumb answers I could have dropped in right away. I notice the thread is still growing healthily, so clearly 'fog' is a universal mirth-maker.

I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.

So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myself wondering just how WS's get into
that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.

So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.

And it's LONG.

To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality. "Reality" for each of us, consists principally of two things: our
"life model", and our value system.

The "life model" is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things: how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we've made the model, how much we've tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered "shrewd", and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It's the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe
will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set “what's best for ME", can revolve around the family, or can be very broad “what's in the best interests of the community (town,
nation, world)?"

Some of our values are personal: we've learned hard lessons from our own experience. “Don't steal, or you'll get a record." Some we've unconsciously absorbed from our parents “It's wrong to steal". Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals “Her son was done for burglary, isn't it awful?"

When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it's innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will
be able to "trust" -- to confidently predict the other's actions and opinions -- and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.

Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our
values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the
values system so that we don't appear to have breached it.

When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved -- for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system “when the WS says "I didn™t think", that's exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be
deliberately ignored. There is a "fantasy leap", almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says "I want some fun / excitement /attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it."

The "denial" mechanism can't operate for long -- the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure
oppose pain and discomfort.

For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the
WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess -- but of course it's not
something trivial they'd be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.

I suspect that most WS's begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it's too big -- like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain -- perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.

So the WS's position metamorphoses: 1) It's wrong to have an affair. 2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage. 4) The outside relationship "brightens" me, and is therefore good for the marriage. 5) Other people are inexperienced. They don't understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is. 6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.

The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much -- the fact that TWO people are involved.

Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they're doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they're justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they're involved with someone whose values system is easily changed -- that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are "growing", becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral /emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.

In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the
dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other "in" the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other's personal investment.

The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.

By this time, the WS's values systems are a LONG way from where they began.

Think back to what a values system is. It's a set of beliefs based on a life model -- the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values
system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won't hurt my family).

The problem with the altered life model is that it's not realistic. It starts from a premise that's innately flawed -- that it is OK for
this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.

Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it's a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn't have to personally prove it. We can
see that skydivers don't appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that's just because they don't get high enough?

Once you're working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they're supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft -- at that height the trouble would be getting them
down!

The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense. This is "fog".

The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it's put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions
that cannot easily be denied or ignored -- the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother's face, the lash of a lawyer's letter.

So what's happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?

To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It's an escape. But, as the two realities diverge,
there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is "having" to lie and deceive. If only the BS's could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS's were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS's are happy! It is
infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS's would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other¦

There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.

So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.

The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to betray.

By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished -- the WS's have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses -- that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the
marriage. Both WS's are locked in a death-spiral -- each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.

So what about the "fog"? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a "flickering" effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to "see" the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to "see" the old reality clearly too.

WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a
well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS's deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as
keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.

And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair's life-model.

For the first time, the illogicality of the affair's premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing
a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble -- the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the "dumb answer" threads.

At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge
that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they
have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they've done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.

There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.

Has anyone reached this point without unconsciousness overtaking them?

TA

Fog: mental confusion (Webster's definition).

An MBers expanded version: 1. the state of mind and heart that loses focus of reality and mental clarity. 2.Creates an environment where selfish attitudes dictate actions designed to inflict great pain and anger upon family, self and friends. 3.Causes disorientation to the WS and all their contacts (pets included). 4. A state of confusion.

I could go on but I think you get the pix.

WARNING: Stay OUT of the FOG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

(Some of the following copied from another thread:)

Biologically, there is no difference between the Fog and “falling in love”. Everyone goes through what we call the Fog when they fell in love with their spouses. In a 'normal' relationship, this 'fog' isn't a problem. And as the relationship progresses, the chemicals that cause this feeling eventually 'dry up', and if the relationship is to continue, then another kind of love takes it's place. A committed, stable affection that can grow deeper throughout the years. This is the real glue that holds a relationship together for the long term. And it's based on trust, truth and respect (among other things). But another dynamic comes into play when an affair takes place and we call it the Fog instead:

In an affair, biology takes the reins. Both the WS and the OP are riding that chemical wave. Physical attractiveness isn't usually an issue because the affair started through an emotional connection. Romantic love is an extremely powerful emotion, people lose their spouses, their homes, their children, their jobs, their self respect, dignity and the respect of those around them to experience that feeling of romantic love. Once the feeling of romantic love is established, everything else goes out the window, and this is what the BS calls the 'Fog'. Inevitably, those chemicals will 'dry up' too. When the WS starts to lose the feeling of romantic love with the OP, the WS will think back and reflect on what has happened. They start to realize all the pain that they have caused, all the things that they have given up and then the Fog starts to clear.

The Fog also has much to do with infatuation where:
- One is totally occupied and fascinated with the individual.
- The partners feel intense emotional states filled with excitement, urgency, impulsiveness, and confusion.
- The relationship is based on very few accurate perceptions and little authentic knowledge about the person.
- They put each other on a pedestal while belittling or putting themselves down. One depends on the other for self-esteem.
- One has more to get from the relationship than give.
- One is jealous of the other person’s activities or interests beyond the relationship.
- Both can’t admit to normal human weaknesses in the other.
- They function less well than usual at school or work or home because of the relationship.
- One is terrified by the possibility that the other person will lose interest.
- They think only of the other person.

With MATURE LOVE (such as those that developed during a long, stable relationship and which is the total opposite of the Fog):
- Each person is an individual apart from the other.
- Neither depends on the other to feel complete, worthwhile, and important, secure in self-esteem and what they bring to the relationship.
- The two people can accept the fact that neither is perfect. They don’t try to change or blame each other for the differences between them.
- The relationship and the partner become only a part of one’s life, not all of it.
- The relationship remains strong in painful, difficult times as well as happy.
- They share fears and tears as easily as they do happiness and laughter.
- Each person has more energy to devote to other parts of life.
- Their love opens them to new experiences instead of shutting them away from the rest of the world.
- The two are close friends. Physical attraction is only one aspect.
- Each person continues to grow as an independent person.
- Each person gets as much joy from giving to the other as receiving.
- Both are secure in the belief that their love is as important, meaningful, and valuable to the other partner as themselves.
- Honesty and trust are openly shared as they respond to each other’s intimate feelings and concerns.
- The partners feel a responsibility for each person’s well-being and act in ways that will protect and nourish them both.

Therefore, the WS in the Fog must realize that real love is more than riding off into the sunset, more than feeling tingly all over when your lover walks in, more than passionate sex. Understanding the depths of mature love and its requirements may help build a lasting relationship that meets many needs.

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

I think Suzet's and A.M. MArtin's posts are excellent (and respectful) explanations.

I just wanted to offer a little warning about the "fogfest" of threads I'm seeing lately.

No one would deny the "fog" happens. But I am concerned that if the BS is too quick to label the WS's communications as fog, they allow themselves to ignore what's really being said. I can see that it would be easy for a BS to do this because it's an effective defense mechanism to think that the WS "doesn't know what they're saying" or "they're in the fog"

So, rather than discount what your WS is saying and come off as disresepctful (a LB by the way), I think it's more important that the BS learn to "interpret" what's being said.

A great source of anger for me was when my wife refused to hear what I was trying to say. Admittedly, some of it was obviously fog driven, but I found it infuriating to be completely blown off. There were some legitimate issues tangled up in all that "fog".

Just something to consider...

Low

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

A. M. Martin - long but EXCELLENT post! That's one worth bookmarking, I think.

I've always felt kind of uncomfortable by the term "fog" - it seems disrespectful of the WS, dismissive somehow. Also I have never seen any difference between the fog/infatuation of an affair and the fog/infatuation that precedes "real" love. I think that's one reason affairs are so terrifying for the BS; we fear the A will turn into "real" love.

OTOH I can't help but laugh at some of the things presented as logical arguments by the WS. It's frequently one of those "laugh to keep from crying" situations. Personally, I'm the type to cry when it's said and then laugh later when looking back (from a safer perspective).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never seen any difference between the fog/infatuation of an affair and the fog/infatuation that precedes "real" love. I think that's one reason affairs are so terrifying for the BS; we fear the A will turn into "real" love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Turtlehead, I can understand this fear, but remember, "real" love is based on trust and respect (among other things) and 2 people involved in a affair can't have the trust and respect found in a "normal", long, stable and lasting relationship. A strong relationship with "real" love cannot be built on a foundation of lies and deception and pain towards other people. The WS and OP had to lie to themselves, each other, and everyone else in order to be together. These lies will be exposed when romantic love starts to fade. This is why most affairs end within 6 months after being exposed. Why only 3% of people who started their relationship as an affair end up getting married and why 75% of those marriages fail. Isn't the BS faithfulness and unselfish love towards their WS the perfect example of "true", agape love and wouldn't any WS (when the Fog starts to fade and they can see more clearly) rather be with someone who have revealed the real meaning of "true" love towards them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>