This thread/post is in response to this posted by my WS...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Plan B certainly does make it easier for you to date your girlfriend.

I can't believe that here in the land of MB honesty, there is still No mention of your online personal ads, your online women who answered your ad, no mention of going to meet one, no mention of driving our son to me repeatedly with said girlfriend, no mention here on the boards of motel sleepovers,...no mention of introducing her to our kids, having her be there with you and the children for a weekend visit.......

you ask for hope from me, you wish limbo to end...well, it's difficult to believe for one minute that you want to save anything when you quite frankly, have been seeing someone since February...having your proverbial amotional needs met...

When you can be completely honest and truthful...we will have somewhere to begin, perhaps...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

All things considered, this is a difficult thing to address. On one hand, she has a point, and there are elements of truth... on the other hand, there's one heck of a spin. I will do my best to not be reactionary. This will be difficult. I have, in fact, mentioned it here before. I just didn't start a whole thread about it.

After Dylan left me I was devastated. Actually, my self esteem and self worth had been suffering for a long time before she left... before even her affair. In fact, my own affair, 4 years ago, was motivated largely by the unmet need of feeling desired by my Wife. Little has changed in that regard since then and after seeing her behave towards another person in all the ways that I wanted her to behave towards me, I was pretty much mangled emotionally. That's an understatement, really.

I started surfing on Lavalife at first just to stop myself from thinking about her constantly, then I started to copy/paste everything I could find about what women want in a man (from their profiles). Then I put an ad up in the dating section thinking that dating might do me some good in terms of rebuilding a semblance of self confidence. I specified that I was not looking for a sexual partner. Probably doesn't make a difference. I didn't receive many (drop the m) emails or interest and one day came up with an idea.

I dropped hints with a friend of hers that I was on lavalife then I put up a profile for Dylan that was very specific to her hoping that it would be a fun way to entice her back. Ok, well that was a stupid idea and it didn't work. Dyl never got the message and even if she had, it wouldn't have made a difference.

I told Dylan when I left town that if she wanted me to hold on while she figured things out, she would have to give me reason to. I even gave her some examples (no contact with OW, open communication, indications that she was working of sorting out her issues, etc) all of which she pointedly ignored.

Then, the last straw broke the camels back. Dylan wanted to come pick up our son with OW. I kinda freaked, LBed big time and at that point completely gave up hope. Not only that, but rejected hope. Her destruction of me was complete and total at that point and I decided that waiting was fruitless, and not only that but stupid. How could I ever trust her as a Mother or Wife again? Why would I even want to entertain the notion? This was mid/late Feb, about 6 weeks after Dylan made it unmistakably clear that she did not want to work on restoring 'us' or saving our family or giving up OW.

Sick of wallowing in feelings of loneliness, abandonment and selfworthlessness, I wrote up a new profile, one written out of absolute truthful desperation. One specifically detailing what I want in a Wife and life partner. I specified that I was looking for 'the one' and all of a sudden, my email was overflowing. I got more replies in 2 days than I could answer.

Well, as you can imagine, my spirits soared. Feast or famine, right? Well, after a famine worse than I could ever have imagined, I was ready to feast- and with a clear conscience. There was one reply in particular that caught my attention. I wrote to her and we clicked right away. A week or so later, after writing back and forth, we met for coffee and there was great chemistry. Best of all, I could tell that she was very interested in me. She thought I was handsome and sexy and more than just of a physical level. All the emotional needs that had been starving for so long... bango... filled.

Yes it was a bit soon, but much later than I would have tried 'moving on' at any other point in my life. The fact that she lived in another city, had a career and two of her own children I viewed as a built in distancer so that we could not move too fast or let this new relationship overwhelm my own healing time...

She was introduced to my son as a 'friend', and I was very careful to not let him get any other idea. She very generously offered to drive with me to bring my son to visit his Mom when it looked like transportation was going to be a problem. And yes, we did that more than a few times.

As for the 'motel sleepovers'... that happened once and out of necessity rather than fun. I had a meeting the next day that I couldn't get out of and could hardly ask Dylan to put me and my new girlfriend up for the night.

As for asking for hope... wanting limbo to end... OW's voice is still on the answering machine, her cat is still in the house and her stereo in the bedroom. There is evidence all over the place that she is still an active part of Dylan's life... and I'm not even snooping or asking about it anymore. I haven't since the offer to drive out and pick up our son with her. After that incident I figured it was no longer any of my business.

I started posting again for a very specific reason. As my feelings for my new girlfriend, (Mary is her name) grew, I began to realize I was stuck, and the more they grew, the more stuck I became. I came and posted here because I felt I could get some insight. I wanted to know if it was over... really over, between Dylan and I. I wanted to know if I really could move on with a clear conscience. I did not post about Mary, because I wanted to look at the Deut/Dylan issues without a wave of posters waving 2x4s. I wanted to know if I'd tried hard enough, been through enough, suffered enough... whatever...

The answer is within me, of course. And though it is intensely painful I think I've found it.

On one hand, I've got an intelligent Mother of two with the same philosophies as me about loyalty and family. She's attractive, kind, generous and eager to go out of her way to make me happy. She has a full time job and has been willing to stick by me even though I've been totally honest with her about my ultimate desire to see my family re-united. Plus, she thinks I'm sexy and sends me loads of affectionate emails and wants to spend more time with me.

On the other hand, I've got a woman who has hurt me more than I've ever been hurt before. She did it cruelly and coldly and kept doing it even though she saw with her own eyes how it was destroying me. She was willing to walk away from not only me, but her son as well and has shown absolutely no remorse over what she has done. If, when I woke up alone and knocked on the door down the hall where she was having sex with OW, I was told that I was "intruding". My panic attacks and sleepless nights over her affair and withdrawl from me were just me "over-reacting". If I expressed dissatisfaction that she didn't come home from the bar when she said she would, I was "controlling".

Any sane person could guess what my choice would be. So, the question I ask you all... why am I still here? Why did I spend last night on the phone with Mary, breaking her heart, and explaining that I needed to try one last time to save my marriage? Why do I feel that I must go the extra mile, and then two more if need be?

dewt

dewt:

I don't know. Why?

I've often wondered if some As are even survivable. But the truth is that they have 2 be. Or, at any rate, the INDIVIDUAL must survive, rather thrive. Coming here is just one possible way for a person 2 recover themselves, learn about themselves, make themselves a better partner for either their own WS or someone else.

What I think you've found, more than anything, by this experience is that it's true that it's dangerous 2 get involved with someone else while you still hold out hope for rebuilding the M. Mary sounds like a wonderful person. But you must have known that, by getting close 2 her while your M was in 2rmoil, you were bound 2 hurt her.

So much of what you are asking about and talking about with this post is about your integrity. And there's simply no better way 2 either repair your M or start over than 2 live up 2 your own standards of what a H should be, need, do...

I wish you well,
-ol' 2long

Why? Ok, because I've loved Dylan for almost 20 years. Loved her to depths and through hells not explainable in words. I lost her once for almost a decade and in all that time never got over her.

If this A is not survivable, then so be it. But I will not let go or give up until there is nothing, and I mean NOTHING left in me... Dylan right now seems pretty intent on seeing that happen, but the way she's acting it seems like it's more of a subconcious effort than a concious one.

Mary is indeed a wonderful person. Awesome, in fact, and if it weren't for that I'd probably not be here right now. But because she is so great in so many ways, my feelings for her wanted to go in a certain direction and were blocked by my own inner self who knew that things with Dylan were not yet resolved. If Mary had been anything less, it would have been a pleasant distraction with no personal crisis attached. Make sense?

When I was getting close to her, I honestly thought things with Dylan were done. Over. And that I'd have to start moving on. I did not envision hurting Mary or even consider it as a possiblity until it was too late. I'm feeling big shame over this, but must act according to what I feel is right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So much of what you are asking about and talking about with this post is about your integrity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. That's partly because this post was spawned as a result of an attack on said integrity. I am by no means perfect, and make plenty of mistakes. In the past, my integrity has been tested and been found lacking. My prior experience here at MB as a WS had a big role in changing that on some very fundemental levels. Again, I'm by no means perfect, but integrity has become VERY important to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And there's simply no better way 2 either repair your M or start over than 2 live up 2 your own standards of what a H should be, need, do...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. That's why I had to break things off. I have very high standards and if I can't live up to them, how could I ever expect anyone else too? The karmic kick in the head to all this is that my love for Dylan is primarily raised these standards so high. Four years ago I hurt her very badly with my affair and seeing that pain in the one I loved forced me to re-evaluate my ways of thinking and behaving. Karma sucks.

dewt

Deut,

How to say this nicely... you're a frickin' idiot. You talk the talk, but the walk isn't really for you---because you know better.

My advice is for you to drop the affair, completely. Not partially. Not "maybe if the reconcillation doesn't work out, we'll pick up where we left off..." Quit. Prepare the way for doing the REAL work to reconcile your marriage. You have a child to think of.

When Dylan takes the same advice, the two of you need real, professional help. Cerri or one of the Harley's. No excuses about money---you need to do this right.

It'd be laughable that the two of you, participating here for years and seeing everyone else's mistakes, would choose to repeat them---except that it's not funny. Quit the excuses and do the right thing.

This is just so out of hand it is almost incromprehensible...

how people get so lost in this world at stabbing and grabbing and filling needs as though it is the be all and end all of what life is about....
as long as we feel good via what ever route it takes and at whoevers expense...

usually the most innocent victims are the children...

Then I put an ad up in the dating section thinking that dating might do me some good in terms of rebuilding a semblance of self confidence.

perfect example of searching out there to fill yourself up....
futile
nebulous
and false...

you want to write something that builds your self confidence...
be you WS
be you BS
be you human..

write you epitah
write your obituary..

Now there's an exercise in defining WHO we WANT to be...
then read your epitah..
read your obituary...
and where you aren't living up to being the person you want to be
CHANGE YOURSELF...
NO ONE will ever be satisfied or at peace with themselves based on any other person in their lives....

It has to come from within first....

and all this using of other people is shallow, cruel and manipulative...

. I am by no means perfect, and make plenty of mistakes. In the past, my integrity has been tested and been found lacking. My prior experience here at MB as a WS had a big role in changing that on some very fundemental levels. Again, I'm by no means perfect, but integrity has become VERY important to me.

failing to see the learning curve here...

I see post stamped with the victim all over it...

In fact, my own affair, 4 years ago, was motivated largely by the unmet need of feeling desired by my Wife.
right she made you have an affair...that's what I read here...victim...

(no contact with OW, open communication, indications that she was working of sorting out her issues, etc) all of which she pointedly ignored.

besides the request for no contact...see nothing of Plan A in there...see lots of blame and finger pointing...and posturing...

I wanted to know if I'd tried hard enough, been through enough, suffered enough... whatever...

victim victim victim....

On one hand, I've got an intelligent Mother of two with the same philosophies as me about loyalty and family.

(oh my God is that not fog talk...how is a women messing with a MARRIED MAN...share the same philosphys of loyalty....)
illogical at best...

On the other hand, I've got a woman who has hurt me more than I've ever been hurt before.

AND then there is the other hand...
exactly what do these women have in YOU...

someone who keeps running running running to fill needs never stopping to reign it all in back to you..

and YOUR role in any and all of this...

sorry DEWT but I can't see where you have learned the values of

honesty
marriage vows
etc...
as you seem only to value them when YOUR needs are being met...
quit meeting YOUR needs and suddenly these things don't matter...

I hope all three (4) of you quit the
blame games
quit the using of others to fill needs inside of you that feel empty because you haven't placed enough value on yourselves in the first place...but as long as it feels good or better than being alone..then that's all that is important...
quit the seeking out there and bring it back internally...

and most importantly
stop the chaos you all CHOOSE to bring on to these children...

ARK

Having browsed a few of your posts from January and read your most recent post "fessin' up" I have to be honest here and go with 'K' on this one. You should have known so much better than to actively search out ANY type of relationship with somebody new (or even an old dear friend for that matter) when your emotions and love bank was at such an all time low. The mere thought of having somebody meet those emotional needs would have been enough to get your juices flowing again - so to speak. I feel for Mary and the hurt she must be feeling at this time - although if what you said is true she went into this with completely open eyes and knew that your ultimate goal was to save your marriage. How could you think for one minute that you could save your marriage or that Dylan would be interested in leaving OW and working on your marriage while you were actively pursuing a new relationship

Putting your relationship with Dylan and the rebuilding of it aside completely, what kind of partner do you think you would have been to Mary in the end? When Arik left, I took a year to heal myself, look at the scars, the problems within me, the whole package, before I even thought about pursuing a relationship. I knew I was no where ready to be a partner or to have the right mindset to find the right partner when he left. I don't want to sound like I am chastizing you because that is not really my intent so please accept my apology if it sounds like I am.

Now as for you and Dylan, again I would have to defer to K, I think you both need to get some sort of counseling, both individually and then as a couple. I know after speaking with Dylan before that there were issues in your marriage that neither one of you would or could address, maybe you both just didn't have all the tools to address it - I'm not sure. You both carried around a lot of hurt for all those years that you were trying to rebuild and that must have made things even more difficult. I know finances have always been an issue for you both but there is a lot of help out there that does not cost a lot and some of it is even free. Churches and different community organiziations offer counselling both individually and in group sessions.

Dewt, there is not a doubt in my mind that you and Dylan love each other, I know you both have a profound and deep love for each other. I know you both love you boys and want what is best for them. The question here is what are you both willing to do to make your family complete.

What are Dylan's emotional needs Dewt? I think she knows what yours are... I know she had struggled for years trying to figure out how to meet your need to be desired even when she didn't desire you. What kind of "Plan A" are you doing - Remember Lostva? She said Plan A was not about your spouse, not in the least bit. It was about you. I called my Plan A - "Plan Nicole". How is your "Plan Dewt"?

You do realize that you have to start all over again ... how can you say you are ready to move into "Plan B" when there was never an effective "Plan A" to begin with? There couldn't have been, when you were surfing dating sites and trying to have your emotional needs met by somebody else.

Please Dewt, don't take this post the wrong way ... I don't want to sound like I am placing this on your shoulders entirely both parties are at fault for the atmosphere that creates an affair - but the fact is in most instances when an affair occurs a lot of the work is placed on the shoulders of the BS in the beggining. Look deep within yourself and see where you have been faultering in meeting Dylan's needs and trying your darndest to met them. Remember "Plan Dewt" ... and you will be better for, your son's will be better for and Dylan will be better for it regardless of the outcome of the marriage.

You know I care so much for you both and it breaks my heart to see you here under these circumstances. Please take care of you, take care of those boys, and remember, remember, remember "Plan Dewt" (I guess I am sounding a bit like a broken record here but I think that - and the counselling you both need - is a key element).

Love to you all

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Patient Love ]</small>

Thanks all for your replies. There's a lot to digest here, but I asked for it, so I will try to get through this one reply, one point at a time.

K ,

How to say this nicely... you're a frickin' idiot. You talk the talk, but the walk isn't really for you---because you know better.

It occures to me, at least 2-3 times a day that indeed, I am an idiot. I'm trying to walk the talk... that's why I'm here, posting... that's why I 'fessed up', and that's why I'm replying now. It's also why I'm going to take what I learn here and make my best effort to use it in my real world over here. (not to imply that you are all imaginary)

My advice is for you to drop the affair, completely. Not partially. Not "maybe if the reconcillation doesn't work out, we'll pick up where we left off..." Quit. Prepare the way for doing the REAL work to reconcile your marriage. You have a child to think of.

Advice noted. Consider it taken. She is coming tonight so that we can give each other our things back.

I'm afraid of what you say about "doing the REAL work", because throughout most of this, I've felt like I've been a gossamer thread away from cracking. Anyway, fear or no fear, I hear what you are saying and am digging in.

When Dylan takes the same advice, the two of you need real, professional help. Cerri or one of the Harley's. No excuses about money---you need to do this right.

If Dylan comes back to me and gets a full time job, we will have no need of excuses. We won't be rolling in dough, but we will make sure there's enough $$$ for counselling.

It'd be laughable that the two of you, participating here for years and seeing everyone else's mistakes, would choose to repeat them---except that it's not funny. Quit the excuses and do the right thing.

Yes. Not funny. The giggling you hear is hysteria settling in. I, for my part, will be doing my absolute, profoundest best, not to make any more mistakes. No excuses.

dewt

She is coming tonight so that we can give each other our things back.
Remember, this is not to be a time of "I'll miss you", any regrets, "if in another time", blah, blah, blah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
For everyone's sake, be firm (but gentle) about it. Let her know solidly it's over.
This gives everyone a "clean" break and allows them to deal with it. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

ark^^

This is going to be a tough one...

how people get so lost in this world at stabbing and grabbing and filling needs as though it is the be all and end all of what life is about....
as long as we feel good via what ever route it takes and at whoevers expense...

I do not feel this is entirely fair. Yes, I made a mistake, but I did not make my decisions consciously disregarding others expense. I thought I was acting honorably. I see now that I made a horrible mistake and am taking the steps I can to get back on track.

usually the most innocent victims are the children...

Yes. Agreed. I see it everyday in my own son.

perfect example of searching out there to fill yourself up....
futile
nebulous
and false...

yes
yes
yes

you want to write something that builds your self confidence...
be you WS
be you BS
be you human..

write you epitah
write your obituary..

As of right now, it reads, "Well, he tried really hard, and had some success..."

I'm trying really hard right now to make the changes in me required to change that prediction.

Now there's an exercise in defining WHO we WANT to be...
then read your epitah..
read your obituary...
and where you aren't living up to being the person you want to be
CHANGE YOURSELF...

Agreed. This is a good idea. I have an idea of who I want to be, but I've never actually written it down.

NO ONE will ever be satisfied or at peace with themselves based on any other person in their lives....

Perhaps not, but I've found that it's possible to to be dissatisfied with yourself based on the actions of others in my life. Very possible. Particularily since I wasn't a shining example of self confidence even before all this started.

It has to come from within first....

Yes, but in my opinion, married folk should be boosting each other up, constantly spurring each other to greater heights.

and all this using of other people is shallow, cruel and manipulative...

Yes. That is one of the reasons I had to end things with Mary.

failing to see the learning curve here...

Naturally. You do not know the whole story. I may not be a shining example of self confidence, but in the past four years I have come a long way. A very long way. Appartently there is still a long way to travel. Fine. I've stumbled but I've picked my sorry butt up, dusted myself off and am ready to keep going.

I see post stamped with the victim all over it...

no kidding.

I said, "In fact, my own affair, 4 years ago, was motivated largely by the unmet need of feeling desired by my Wife." and you replied, right she made you have an affair...that's what I read here...victim...

Oh no, the affair was my own choice, and mine alone. Bad choice. Stupid choice. Shallow choice. I paid for it and learned from it. I swore never again to break my vows of fidelity. As big a mistake as dating was, when Dylan and I split up, I told her that I was not planning to be celibate. Before you jump all over me, let me do it myself. That was a stupid thing to say. It was a stupid thing to think. It was a stupid thing to do.


besides the request for no contact...see nothing of Plan A in there...see lots of blame and finger pointing...and posturing...

Can't argue this one.

I wanted to know if I'd tried hard enough, been through enough, suffered enough... whatever...

victim victim victim....

Yes, yes, yes. I do absolutely feel victimized. I wish I could flick switch and not feel like a victim. Please keep in mind that my Wife had been having sex down the hall with my room-mate while I was having severe panic attacks. It kind of upset my natural tendency to be ok.


(oh my God is that not fog talk...how is a women messing with a MARRIED MAN...share the same philosphys of loyalty....)
illogical at best...

I considered myself at that point, (wrongly) to be unmarried. I do not claim to be free of wrong thinking. I do not claim to be ultimately wise. Fog talk, yes. Illogical, yes. If there was any logic in any of my thoughs over the last 5 months, it must have been hidden under the piles of panic. Again, that's why I'm here. Because I realize I have not, am not thinking clearly.


exactly what do these women have in YOU...

Mary had someone who was overjoyed to finally be cared about. The other had a panic-ridden, frantic boy for a husband. Either way, I think I'm missing your point. As of right now, I'm a celibate Father who is trying to put the peices of his life back together. Doing ok in some respects, not so great in others. Trying to improve both.

someone who keeps running running running to fill needs never stopping to reign it all in back to you..

Agreed. (I forgot to add that)

and YOUR role in any and all of this...

sorry DEWT but I can't see where you have learned the values of

honesty
marriage vows
etc...
as you seem only to value them when YOUR needs are being met...
quit meeting YOUR needs and suddenly these things don't matter...

Ok. Points taken.

I hope all three (4) of you quit the
blame games
quit the using of others to fill needs inside of you that feel empty because you haven't placed enough value on yourselves in the first place...but as long as it feels good or better than being alone..then that's all that is important...
quit the seeking out there and bring it back internally...

Ok, more good points. Very good ones, actually.

and most importantly
stop the chaos you all CHOOSE to bring on to these children...

I will do my best. I love my son more than life itself and will continue posting so that if I start to stray off track in my thinking or feelings again, someone can come along and help steer me straight. Again, thanks for your reply.

dewt

DEWT...

I hated my post to you..
I almost deleted it several times...
I really unloaded on you...
and the irony is that I don't even have triggers...neither BS or WS am I...

I am just amazed at the amount of chaos people invite into their lives...
and so very saddened by it...

DEWT...I believe in you and I don't even know you....more than you believe in yourself....

I believe in your ability to not be fear driven to the point that the thought of a spouse "leaving" somehow brings you to the point of giving consent to swinging or bringing a third person in to a marriage...

I believe in your ability to find yourself..to let go of this self doubt that is so known to you...partly because of it just being familiar to you...

that you fear the unknown greater than the known...even when the known is more painful...ie your wife with another person in the next room...

You shed your fears by conquering them not giving in to them...tiny scrap of control by tiny scrap of control gained..is how you move yourself forward...

where you say...I am afraid of losing my spouse...but not so afraid that I sell my own true beliefs...
your beliefs are valuable because they are yours...
you alone validate yourself...

you have that much power...if you begin to believe it...

define here and now what you expect from YOUR marriage and claim it...

and none of that is an ulitmatum or has anything to do with your spouse...it is what is acceptable in your universe...and you only control your actions....

are you one something for the panic attacks...
are you praying to God...and can you feel His presence?
And if you can't spend time each day...alone with yourself....seeking it...


You need to get in touch with that....
seek God's Grace...
God's love is infinite...

ARK

Nicole,

I'm so grateful that you showed up. I know you have moved on but to see a familiar face... man, that feels good. Ok, so I've never actually seen your face, but you know what I mean.

You should have known so much better than to actively search out ANY type of relationship with somebody new (or even an old dear friend for that matter) when your emotions and love bank was at such an all time low.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending myself here... which in a way I guess I am. (I just don't want to sound like it) I really thought it was all done. Everything pointed towards the end. Heck, it still does for that matter... but I know I'm not ready to move on yet. Even if she doesn't come back... Gaaah... I'm as confused as ever.

How could you think for one minute that you could save your marriage or that Dylan would be interested in leaving OW and working on your marriage while you were actively pursuing a new relationship?

I didn't think that. I thought she wouldn't either way. I didn't think OW would last. But I didn't interpret that as hope for the marriage. The very fact that Dylan hadn't (still hasn't) apologized or shown the slightest remorse for the hell she put me through made me think that I wouldn't want to be with a person like that anyway. I'm still struggling with this. I never, in my wildest nightmares ever thought she could be so heartless or cruel.

Putting your relationship with Dylan and the rebuilding of it aside completely, what kind of partner do you think you would have been to Mary in the end?

Not a very good one. That is one of the reasons I had to end it. I still don't have much hope for Dylan and I. But I realize that this journey will ultimately be my own. I'm here trying to save my family and my marriage, but really and truly I need to save myself.

When Arik left, I took a year to heal myself, look at the scars, the problems within me, the whole package, before I even thought about pursuing a relationship. I knew I was no where ready to be a partner or to have the right mindset to find the right partner when he left.

Yeah. I get your point, and you don't sound like you are chastizing me. (Even though I would mind it if you did) I made a mistake in deciding to date, not only in terms of going the extra mile to save my family, but also, as you say to heal properly and completely.

Now as for you and Dylan, again I would have to defer to K, I think you both need to get some sort of counseling, both individually and then as a couple.

For myself, I have always enjoyed counselling (with a good counsellor) I plan on getting some help there asap, though circumstances may make that difficult. I won't give any excuses, I'll just say that it is on my priority list.

I know after speaking with Dylan before that there were issues in your marriage that neither one of you would or could address, maybe you both just didn't have all the tools to address it - I'm not sure.

I'm not sure either. Some counselling might clear this question up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


You both carried around a lot of hurt for all those years that you were trying to rebuild and that must have made things even more difficult.

I used that hurt to motivate personal change. In many ways I fell short, but in many ways I excelled. As for Dylan, I don't know. I wish I did know. Any kind of understanding of what this is all about would go so far in helping me deal with this.

I know finances have always been an issue for you both but there is a lot of help out there that does not cost a lot and some of it is even free. Churches and different community organiziations offer counselling both individually and in group sessions.

I'm planning on seeking a local pastor. The church I go to is too long a drive and also long distance by phone, so it's not very practical. There are churches all over the place though, and my loyalties lie with God and Jesus rather than any specific congregation so I've got options there.

Dewt, there is not a doubt in my mind that you and Dylan love each other, I know you both have a profound and deep love for each other. I know you both love your boys and want what is best for them. The question here is what are you both willing to do to make your family complete.

That is indeed the question. I've got a growing resolve to do whatever is necessary. I'm sick of being a victim though. I have a tough time accepting that to save my marriage I have to allow myself to be treated like this. I've always believed that to save a marriage, you need two people working on it together. Dylan has shown no interest on working on anything. I'm not saying she has no interest, just that I haven't seen any.

What are Dylan's emotional needs Dewt?

I have been trying to figure that out. But everytime she's promised to talk to me about it, something 'more important' has come up. I can't think of anything more important than the integrity of our family. To me it seems like she can't think of anything less important. Again, I'm not saying that's a fact, it's just how her behaviours have made me feel.

I think she knows what yours are...

Oh, she knows all right. How else could she have so effectively done the opposite. I'm sorry. That was kind of childish, but you know what? The pain I'm feeling right now is so primal and deep that rational thought and patience sometimes slip and I need to vent.

I know she had struggled for years trying to figure out how to meet your need to be desired even when she didn't desire you.

More petulant venting... I gave her lists of things to do. I gave her examples. Examples she used on OW right in front of me.

What kind of "Plan A" are you doing - Remember Lostva? She said Plan A was not about your spouse, not in the least bit. It was about you. I called my Plan A - "Plan Nicole". How is your "Plan Dewt"?

I'm in Plan B right now. For myself. If I had to spend one more day on the rollercoaster of hope/abandonment/hope/abandonment I would start forgeting how much she means to me. It's bad enough already.

My Plan A, according to Dylan, sucked. It is exceptionally hard to take this critism from her when OW is so plainly still in the picture and she is so heartlessly dismissing my love. She knows all about MB principles and if I saw her at least trying, I'd take the comment to heart and try better. But knowing what she knows, her saying something like that was another ultimate insult and was one of the things that helped bring Plan B about. I did the best I could. I really did... and all things considered, there are only a few people on the face of this earth who could righteously say I should have done better. I've nowhere near the stregnth of character those people have. Not yet anyway.

You do realize that you have to start all over again ... how can you say you are ready to move into "Plan B" when there was never an effective "Plan A" to begin with?

No, there was never an effective Plan A. I'm reading, and posting, and trying to learn, but I still feel I'm missing something. My biggest anti Plan A thing was my constant need to understand what she was thinking... grasping for an understanding, some hope, anything.

At this point, I can't start all over again. I'm in Plan B not as a manipulation device, or a stage in a plan, but simply to protect myself from starting to really hate her. She's playing with my feelings, my most profoundly sensitive and defenseless emotions. Whether she realizes it or not, whether it's on purpose or not is no longer even relevant... the effect will be the same. And at least this way, one of us still cares how things turn out. If I can breathe a bit, get some help here, some fresh perspectives, maybe I can find the stregnth to be put back onto her twisted roller coaster again and Plan A my little heart out, but right now I'm too raw and wounded by the tidbit of hope/neglect cylce to do it.

There couldn't have been, when you were surfing dating sites and trying to have your emotional needs met by somebody else.

By the time I started dating I was already convinced it was over... for both of us.

Please Dewt, don't take this post the wrong way ... I don't want to sound like I am placing this on your shoulders entirely both parties are at fault for the atmosphere that creates an affair - but the fact is in most instances when an affair occurs a lot of the work is placed on the shoulders of the BS in the beggining. Look deep within yourself and see where you have been faultering in meeting Dylan's needs and trying your darndest to met them.

I am, and have been. It's a confusing issue. Our lives sucked together. Drug abuse (both of us have been chronic pot smokers for most of our adult lives) and a complete failure to 'walk the walk' on both our parts perpetuated this. Other factors are there too, but I've got a growing belief that her affair was specifically designed to throw a huge wrench into the gears moreso than meet any ENs she had. I could be wrong.

And yes, a lot of work has been placed on my shoulders. I've quit smoking dope. I'm 'walking the walk' in real life, paying the bills, taking care of the boy, keeping a spotless house, etc... (and it's one heck of an etc...) I'm here now too, trying to 'walk the walk' in terms of getting her to come back, or at least making myself worthy of coming back to, or well, whatever... Still working on exactly what it all means...

Remember "Plan Dewt" ... and you will be better for, your son's will be better for and Dylan will be better for it regardless of the outcome of the marriage.

"Plan Dewt" right now consists of 'walking the walk' in my daily life. No contact with Dylan will protect me from her and give her the space she needs to figure out what she really wants. She knows I love her. I hope she reads this and sees that I've broken up with Mary. I don't think it'll change her position, or anything, but at least she will take it as a sign that I really do want her back and that my family really is that important to me.

You know I care so much for you both and it breaks my heart to see you here under these circumstances. Please take care of you, take care of those boys, and remember, remember, remember "Plan Dewt"

Plan Dewt is still very much under construction. Might even make a good thread. Hmmmmmm....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know you care, and I'm so glad you came and posted. I hope you know how much I appreciate it.

dewt

Dewt ... I didn't even read most of this thread. I'm a newbie by most standards, and a tired one who needs to get to sleep.

But I want to thank you. I recently joined match.com, before fully ending my marriage (we're both women and WP is now with a man, in eery parallel to your situation). Cerri and HoFS convinced me not to take that any further... and your posts reinforce that with rather painful clarity. I know it doesn't help your situation any, but it points me back toward a straight and narrow path.

It's a path that's making me crazy, but it's about the only path available to where I want to go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> DEWT...

I hated my post to you..
I almost deleted it several times...
I really unloaded on you...
and the irony is that I don't even have triggers...neither BS or WS am I...

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Phew... thanks for the above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I must admit I was kinda hoping for a bit more sympathy, maybe some positive reinforcement, a gentle nudge in the right direction... but... God's grace helped me put aside my intial reaction and reply with and open mind and heart and I found as I did that your post did a lot for me. So while it wasn't what I was originally hoping for, it did the trick and I owe you a big thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am just amazed at the amount of chaos people invite into their lives...
and so very saddened by it...

Ya, me too. Particularily when I fall into that category.

DEWT...I believe in you and I don't even know you....more than you believe in yourself....

More than I believe in myself? Well, that's not very hard. Even so, I've come a long way in the past few months. Faltered to be sure, but seriously, the steps I have made are awesome. I'm still human though, and new in my faith in God. His voice doesn't always come in loud and clear and sometimes I get wrapped up in myself and forget to listen for His prompts.

I believe in your ability to not be fear driven to the point that the thought of a spouse "leaving" somehow brings you to the point of giving consent to swinging or bringing a third person in to a marriage...

Ya, that was kinda stupid wasn't it?

I believe in your ability to find yourself..to let go of this self doubt that is so known to you...partly because of it just being familiar to you...

I'm starting to share this belief. God has helped me work miracles in my life. It's a process, to be sure, but it is happening. The doubt was there because to this point, anything I've accomplished hasn't had the firm footing that permanent success needs. I see that changing in myself daily on so many levels... little bit by little bit, mind you, and I'd sure like for this to go quicker, but hey, God has his plan and my job is to follow it according to His schedule, not impose my own. (He has more experience with this sort of thing - I'm only brand new)

that you fear the unknown greater than the known...even when the known is more painful...ie your wife with another person in the next room...

Not really the case. I lost Dylan once before. I know already what it's like to lose her. I know the feeling never goes away. My Wife in the next room was less painful than her absence from our room, if that makes any sense...

You shed your fears by conquering them not giving in to them...tiny scrap of control by tiny scrap of control gained..is how you move yourself forward...

er... not sure what you mean...

where you say...I am afraid of losing my spouse...but not so afraid that I sell my own true beliefs...
your beliefs are valuable because they are yours...
you alone validate yourself...

you have that much power...if you begin to believe it...

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up. Yes, I'm getting to that point. And yes, it's bit by bit. I'm finding Plan B is helping me with that somewhat. Without the daily influence of her voice and hoping that it will say certain things, I'm less subject to the roller coaster thing. That's enabling me to focus on acting rather than reacting, if you catch my meaning, which is allowing me to excersise my personal power, which is helping me to believe in it...

define here and now what you expect from YOUR marriage and claim it...

Define? That's easy (but would require a new thread)

Claim it? Er... any insights on this one would be really appreciated.

and none of that is an ulitmatum or has anything to do with your spouse...it is what is acceptable in your universe...and you only control your actions....

Yes. I get what you are saying. I think that indeed a new thread is in order.

are you on something for the panic attacks...

Yes, Plan B. It's working great too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Seriously, the panic attacks stopped when my son and I left town. Being helpless and in pain is what brought them on more than anything else.

are you praying to God...and can you feel His presence?

God came into my life about 4 months ago, took me by the ear the way a fed up parent would take his child and started giving me His word. He made his presence known in ways even my sceptical mind could not ignore. I pray daily and read the Bible every night before bed. He is hard at work in my life and making a big difference.

You need to get in touch with that....
seek God's Grace...
God's love is infinite...

I did not seek God's grace. He brought it to me. In ways that are miraculous and soooo beautiful. As I learn to actually listen to Him, He is guiding me with a skilled hand.

His love is indeed infinite, but apparently, as far as I am concerned, his patience is not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Good thing too, because I was doing a horrible job of it on my own.

Thanks again for your replies. You are a voice of wisdom and reason. I'm grateful that you did not delete your first post.

dewt

Chris -CA123,

Thanks for showing up. It was difficult to say the least, and I probably could have been firmer... but we both know it is over. My resolve in terms of what I have to do is growing clearer and more solid each day.

Just J,

Sleep? Wazzat? I heard rumours about sleep once. It's like a Ukranian pasta dish or something... isn't it?

It's a path that's making me crazy, but it's about the only path available to where I want to go.

There's another eerie parallel.

Ya, seriously, that dating thing was a huge mistake. All else aside, Mary is a really great person and (sorry Chris) if things had been different, we would have made a great match. But things aren't different and as a result I've inflicted a load of pain on an innocent woman who really didn't deserve it. Four years ago it was I who cheated and I wrote a 'no contact' letter to the OW. It was a very different experience. In my heart, I felt 'well, that's what you get for messing with a Married man.' In this case, I believed myself to be single and though many here would disagree, I never felt Mary to be in any way an OW. I still don't... she was an innocent woman who got caught up in my own train wreck. She knew I grieved for my family and wanted my Wife back, but I portayed things as 'over' because that's what I believed.

I'm glad you avoided that trap, and if it helps point you back to a straight and narrow path then I've done some good today and that helps my situation more than you could even guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

dewt

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

You don't know me... I've been around the MB block for almost three years...

One word STUCK out in MOST of your posts.

TRY.

I think we should BAN the word try from our vocabularies. It is such a victim's word... a defeatest's word.

There is no TRY... there is DO or DO NOT...

People who try allow themselves to avoid the responsibility of choice. "I tried," they say in that defeatest voice.

Be INTENTIONAL with your life, dewt. Don't allow life to happen to you. Don't take away your choices. Live w/ intention.

Cali

Dewt,

I had to chuckle a bit when I read Cali's post ... TRY ...

I noticed that too.
I remember years ago, you posting to Arik that "try" was not good enough in your books whenever you heard him say that.

Just food for thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>I think we should BAN the word try from our vocabularies. It is such a victim's word... a defeatest's word.

There is no TRY... there is DO or DO NOT...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wax on... wax off. You are of course entirely correct. I will not use the the word again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll be honest. Right now I do feel victimized. I do feel defeated. Crushed. Broken. I will start, this morning, to stop acting that way, though. I will grow through this. I will progress. I will be intentional with my life, in all aspects of my life.

Nicole

er... eh... ahem... well, yes... I suppose that rings a bell... [embarassed grin]

dewt

Mary is a really great person and (sorry Chris) if things had been different, we would have made a great match.
I didn't write you couldn't feel that way.
Only that you should not voice that to her.
It would simply reinforce what you did have and make it harder for you and her to "just get over it". <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Dewt... other people have been caught in my train wreck, people who I never wanted to hurt. And my own train wreck has been made worse by my honest, and completely naive, opinion that the rules did not apply to me.

I could love more than one person. I was doing so openly and honestly. So that wasn't adultery, right, and wouldn't hurt anyone. Right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And I thought that my WP and I were immune from jealousy and hateful behavior. Because we'd never exhibited it in the past. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And I thought we could survive anything, because so many many people had told me that I was different than everyone else. And I am. But not different enough. Some basic things still apply to all of us.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this nor how it applies to you....... except that I want you to know that I understand about the things that can happen when you are honestly and innocently going about trying to build a life that you think will work. It can cause godawful pain, even when you think you're playing by the rules.

So... I hope Mary finds a good support group and recovers from this.

I hope you and I recover, too.

We all grow up with wounds, we all acquire more of them along the way.

A beautiful body is not necessarily one that is unwounded. The same is true of a beautiful soul. Sometimes it's the scars that make us uniquely and beautifully human. And it's the strength that comes with the pain of healing from those wounds.

Chris,

I get your point. I guess according to MB philosophy I didn't handle the whole thing perfectly, but anyway it's over now and I can't go back and change anything.

Just J

Dewt... other people have been caught in my train wreck, people who I never wanted to hurt.

It's amazing how far reaching the effects of these things can be. And I think it's safe to say very few people start off with the intention of hurting someone. I never did when I was the wayward one.

And my own train wreck has been made worse by my honest, and completely naive, opinion that the rules did not apply to me.

Hey whaddya know, they don't apply to me either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I could love more than one person. I was doing so openly and honestly. So that wasn't adultery, right, and wouldn't hurt anyone. Right.

I know what you mean. Live and learn, though... as long as we learn, something can come from these train wrecks.

And I thought that my WP and I were immune from jealousy and hateful behavior. Because we'd never exhibited it in the past.

Ok, now you're freaking me out. I was actually really glad to find out that I did have feelings of jealousy. Previously, I thought myself to be immune as well. Now I realize I'd been emotionally stunted by past experiences. In a way I'm grateful though, because though my wife's affair did hurt, it's been very easy for me to 'get over'. Her abandonment of the family unit... that's another thing all together.

And I thought we could survive anything, because so many many people had told me that I was different than everyone else. And I am. But not different enough. Some basic things still apply to all of us.

Sheesh. You are quoting me and we've never met. I too thought we could survive anything. Gaaahh... live and learn...

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this nor how it applies to you....... except that I want you to know that I understand about the things that can happen when you are honestly and innocently going about trying to build a life that you think will work.

Having someone understand is a huge help for me right now. You don't really need to go anywhere with it.

It can cause godawful pain, even when you think you're playing by the rules.

Uh-huh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So... I hope Mary finds a good support group and recovers from this.

She is surrounded by family and great friends. She's got awesome kids who will shine with extra light during the next little bit. She's hurting like heck right now and I feel horribly because it's all my fault but I know that she will survive though, and get over it, and move on.

I hope you and I recover, too.

Well, you know we will. Even if it doesn't seem like it right now.

We all grow up with wounds, we all acquire more of them along the way.

I think the trick is to learn from these experiences. Wounds can be an awesome source of wisdom. They can also cripple us. It's important to make sure it's the former rather than the latter. Thank goodness we have some control over which it is.

A beautiful body is not necessarily one that is unwounded. The same is true of a beautiful soul. Sometimes it's the scars that make us uniquely and beautifully human. And it's the strength that comes with the pain of healing from those wounds.

For about 15 years, I've been collecting tattoos as memorials for my trials and tribulations. My emotional scars and victories are etched forever on the outside, so that I can keep them from accumulating on the inside. I'm pretty unique. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks for posting. I'd like to read more of your story. Is there one particular thread that would bring me up to speed? If so, would you mind posting a link? I think I could learn a lot from your experiences too.

dewt