I debated if I needed to post today, but I guess I do. Woke up with H once again at about 3am. I could hear him having a panic attack. He told me he wishes he could cry, but he can't. H is trying to keep to NC, but this addiction is so powerful. In ChristyV's Betty Ford post I wrote an analogy about an alcoholic if anyone cares to read it. I just talked to his doctor who is prescribing sleep meds. I hope they work.

I don't know what happened to me last night, but H felt totally badgered by me. I'd ask a question, then another question. I think because his answers just aren't enough for me. For example, I finally got what he and OW talked about in recent phone calls. What a hard time they're both having. H wants to work on out M. OW's reply: I'm here for you if you need me." I said to H, "She's good! Do you realize that is EXACTLY what you told me she said when you were trying to keep the A from becoming physical?" I swear she's doing a perfect Plan B. I actually told H why doesn't he just hire her back and live out his fantasy. He didn't even say he wanted to do that. I was on a roll. He became so agitated. We ended up OK. He realizes I haven't had many of these AOs.

I do have a question about H's posting. For some reason he feels that he isn't supposed to express his feelings on this forum. This is a man who has trouble with this and I'm encouraging him to get his stuff out. Maybe it's the shrink in me. So maybe if you hit him with the 2x4's, don't hit him so hard he's going to not post. I REALLY think he needs the support. Thanks! CV

Hey CV: I have a really busy day but I wanted to just pop in and say Hi. I've had a rough couple days. I'll try to get on a little later to get caught up. Chris

CV, my kindred same initial, same terrible situation sister. I seriously feel like we are soul sisters of sorts. I laugh at your posts. We have similar ways at looking at things.

Anyway, my heart has literally been bleeding for you through all these recovery, or maybe not so recovery, posts. When I read you H contacted her, I wanted to personally find him and put on the anti-cheat collar.

I could be talking out of turn, but your H reminds me of my H. Very sensitive, needs a strong woman, just being really WEAK in all of this, while you are SOOOOOO Strong.

He needs to post. Who cares if someone blasts him. He doesn't know them, have to answer to them, or really have to read it or live by anything anyone else says. He internalizes the stuff on the board so much that he would shield himself from the one place where he can go and vent, JUST GET IT ALL OUT AND PURGE, with people who can truly get it.

That is why we are all so drawn to this site. We can talk to our family, talk to our friends, talk to our spiritual leaders, talk to everyone, and with the exception of professional counselors and people who have SUCCESSFULLY gone through all of this, they DON'T GET IT!

He doesn't have to isolate himself. This will be the freedom to express himself that he needs to heal, whatever the outcome of your M.

I will pray for you both!

Thanks Christy for your kind words about me being a strong woman. I keep being told that, especially by H. Today I feel tired. The little "B" has such a hold on H. He claims he has not contacted her since last week, but literally fights it sometimes by the hour or minute. I'm not sure I can win this battle. Probably why I caved and LBed the crap out of him last night.

We went to MC today and the therapist told H this. I'm probably going to mutilate what he said, but here goes. H was abused by his dad, who died one year ago. All the shrinks say there is a connection between the death and his A. H even recognizes that. The A began within a month. The shrink said when someone is developmentally stuck in a stage of childhood the OP often is someone who perfectly matches what the WS needed at that stage of development. He said when that happens it is a very powerful force. H just nodded, and I'm sure this is exactly what occurred. My shrink told me that when someone grows up having a bad relationship with a parent, and that parent dies, all the unresolved crap comes to the surface after the death. Thus making something like this A possible. I'm not making excuses, but it makes sense.

H is very weak now. I told him today I have to use willpower every day. Why can't he use it concerning OW? My strength has always scared him. I'm sure vulnerable little miss thing made him feel soooo strong and capable. I'd LOVE to smack the SH** out of her. Anyway, even though he is drawn to her like an addict, I think inside of him he really questions the wisdom in going to her. Of course who knows what he's posting here. Don't tell me. I don't want to know. The bottom line is only he can fight the addiction, and it really seems like an addiction to me. Shrink suggested he buy a book about being addicted to a person and how to break free from that addiction. I hope he succeeds because I think he will be a very sorry man if he leaves this family. There is obviously a lot of love and affection between us in spite of this. But it ain't stage one, which I don't think he can get out of his mind. Those chemicals must still be flowing. And he is less fogged, but it's still there. In spite of EVERYONE telling him the A is an illusion, he still wonders if it is. At least he is beginning to take the queen off of her pedestal. I pointed out to him yesterday that every conversation they had that could have had some conflict she would not respond to, or would blow it off. Nice tactic to remain conflict free.

Well, you're not the only one who writes those novels on here. Yeh, I think we are kindred spirits. I need to get more of my humor back. It is sadly lacking. Hope your H gets his SH** together soon! CV

CV:

I totally agree with the psycho-babble. I read a real enlighting book called the sexual detour, and basically, the whole deal was that As are not about the OP, the BS, or even so much the M, they are about deep-seeded issues that the WS never dealt with.

Take for example my H. His dad was an abusive alcoholic. As a young child, he got to watch him beat the hell out of his Mom. Eventually, Mom left crazy Dad, and then H had NO father, and a really, really, really bitter, needy Mom (mom grew up in alcoholic family, lots of abuse before her own M, then she lost a child due to heart complications at the age of 3 before my H was born, and the list goes on...HORRIFYING). Anyways, my H lived with his STRONG yet really NEEDY (interesting dichotomy...she is a strong survivor type of person, but still really hurting inside, under the facade of strength) and got real used to meeting her emotional needs, and not his own. In fact, he became whatever his Mom wanted him to be, and never really defined a true sense of self. So this business of lies and betrayal is old hat to H, he started doing it at a young age because he got the message from Mom that he could not have emotions (Moms were big enough for both of them) could not have different goals or opinions (don't want to hurt already hurting Mom) could not have dreams (Mom's dreams deserved to be chased first), so he started lying about who he was, what he wanted, everything to please Mom. Mom remarries, and now H gets totally emotionally unavailable step-Dad (who literally tells my 10-year old H in reply to his question of "Can I call you Dad now that you have married my Mom?" "No." YIKES.) Don't have to tell you how that didn't help him define any clearer sense of self (although a man in his life should have done that, but step-dad is not available, and just as railroaded by Mom, as H was).

So along comes me. I am confident, funny, strong, don't take no ****, like me or leave me, driven, passionate, goal oriented, achiever, making big things happen in my life already at the young age of 19 when we met, and wammo...there was attraction. I was the STRONG woman he was used to. But the attraction was deeper. He must have also somehow been able to read the "NEEDY" part in my innerds too (that NO ONE was given access to). But my H knew the "strong yet needy" language from his life experiences, so he could sense it, and probably didn't even realize it. I was adopted, had some abadonment, rejection, self-esteem wounds I never bothered to inspect, and H suddenly found himself in a very familiar place. Strong and Needy woman land. And I was opinionated, emotional, goal-oriented, and everything else enough for the both of us, so H would not have to do anything about all this past baggage, could just stay on auto pilot.

So, H becomes ever weaker. I am control freak (that way, can control rejection and avoid pain, I now realize), and H just lets me do it. He has no drive, I have too much. He has no goals, I want to take over the world. He is so irresponsible, I am responsible and very organized in my life. And soon, not only am I sorta similiar to his mom, I virtually am his Mom. I woudl literally tell people I have 3 kids, my two kids and my H. BAD PLACE FOR BOTH OF US!!!

THEN, his parents moved in with us last year (due to financial problems). So, H had TWO moms.

He went away on business, was doing really great things overseas professionally, and for the first time, people around him were really respecting him. He was away from the family, so he could be anyone he wanted to be over there. He could be unmotivated/motivated, responsible/irresponsible, goal-oriented/lazy, it didn't matter, he was left alone to just be!

Meanwhile, I am here in FL, 10,000 miles away from H, feeling guess what? REALLY ABANDONED. So I start going AT HIM. If he didn't call, keep in touch, write, etc....I started to panic. Something really PRIMAL in me just ached. I was literally having anxiety attacks. SO I WOULD LB SO HARD IT WAS LIKE TAKING MILLION DOLLAR WITHDRAWALS OUT OF THE LOVE BANK!!!! I wanted to make him hurt as bad as I was hurting.

So, H came to crossroads. He could have come home, said, "hey, while I was away, it was actually really nice, because I could be my own man, without you riding my [censored] all the time. I found out I CAN do things. I need you to be my partner, not my mother. I want to be the man of the house, I want to run things, I want to be respected. You can no longer relate to me the way you do, and by the way, let's examine why you do that. But bottom line is, I'm taking over."

And I would have said "HALLELUJAH!!!!! Because I am tired. Very tired. The burden of our whole life was eating away at me. I didn't want all the responsibility. And I really, truly, deep down in the inner recesses, wanted to be taken care of. I could have replied "By the way, while you were away, I was really hurting. I felt like you were going to abandon me, and it scared the hell out of me." And we could have SOOOOOO fixed this pattern, that honestly, neither of us wanted to perpetuate.

But instead, he meets OW. She is flattering. She tells him how much she respects him (there goes a major deposit). She tells him how she wants him to be the man of her life. The King of her home (she literally uses that term). MAJOR LOVE DEPOSIT. She tells him that she loves him just the way he is. SHE IS MAKING MILLION DOLLAR DEPOSITS.

Of course, she never got to see the real H. Just what he wanted her to believe about him in a time span of less than 3 weeks. And he is very charming. The reason I know she doesn't really know him is because H has been so STUCK, he doesn't even know himself.

What H also doesn't know is he is headed for the same inevitable outcome. Why? Well, for starters, he still hasn't worked on all that CRAP in his heart from his past (we used to lay around and talk about what happened to him, and I would say, "How are you so well adjusted, without any counseling, any scars, nothing." and he would answer "None of it bothers me.") Bull****. It does bother him, it is still there eating at him. And he needs to do the scary, hard work of facing it. And I could help him. I faced my crap...and SO, SO, So thankful for that. Because I am now just strong (and not SO needy...and I know GOD WILL NEVER EVER ABANDON ME...so I can relax). He is also doomed to repeat this from other comments he has made about OW. Like "She is very goal oriented." Uhh-O. "She is very strong." YIKES. "She is very motivated, wants to accomplish alot of things in her life." Here's the scary one....ready? "She lost a child from a previous relationship and is still really hurting about it. She didn't even want to discuss it with me." TRIPLE YIKES...THERE'S A BIG RED FLAG...someone else with deep seeded pain, so you can attend to their emotional voids, and avoid your own, be co-dependent, and eventually dissappoint her, so she will take control, and you will be back where you started, but really worse off, because you will have lost me, our kids, and everything we worked to build in the process.

FASCINATING!

CV, maybe you should focus on H's sordid, deep-seeded emotional scars when you would rather KILL him throughout this recovery. A little pity would go a long way for him right now.

And we will try and help you avoid your OWN deep-seeded emotional scars in the process!

I've corresponded with your H (don't read it). I don't think much of it sank in, but we will all keep trying. At least he is out of the fog enough to be on here. My WH still thinks he found his dream come true!

:-)

Chris, hope you got through your busy day and you are doing alright again after the card incident.

Christy, thanks for telling me your story.Like you I think I've been carrying the marriage on a certain level for years. My shrink says that I have always overcompensated for H emotionally. He always struggled with the fantasy that there shouldn't be any conflict in a marriage. Before all the crap happened last year, pre-A, I thought we finally were at a great place of being open and able to communicate. All the deaths, sickness, and stress, and of course Miss Thing put him in such a weak place. Wow, I still shake my head in disbelief that this is my life.

Truthfully I have no idea what's going to happen. At times I see signs of hope. Other times I see him hold on to the fantasy for dear life. That perfect love, even though he says he's not that naive. We'll see. My SIL invited me to a women's prayer service tonight. Once again I just surrendered this M to God, and prayed whatever the outcome is I can accept and move forward.

H told me today I am too evolved for him. So I said are you asking me to get rid of you? He stated he will never get to my level. I said , "What a crock. If you want to progress you will." I'm thinking, yeh it would be a lot easier if I wasn't sticking in here so you could be with the oh so admiring little princess.

Well tonight both H and I are hitting the meds. His doc prescribed sleeping pills. I'm so excited. Say a prayer he has no panic attacks. CV

there is a seperate board for wayward spouses at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

Maybe he would better posting there?

Here is a description..

Reclamation ~ Finding Your Way Home
A safe place for spouses actively involved in an affair who are desirous of ending the affair relationship and recommiting to the marriage. For the safety of our participants, this is a private forum.

Neverenough, thanks for the info. It seems like a good site. So far, if H is telling me the truth, he has kept to NC this time. So far! This morning he asked if I could get him this book the therapist recommended on how to get over an addiction to another person. he told me he thought it would help him. He also thanked me for not throwing his butt out because he knows I could have and probably should have.

At this rare moment in time I am feeling pretty calm about whatever happens. Tomorrow I maybe sobbing. Today i realize I can support him during this withdrawal, but he has to walk the walk. I can't make his grief easier. I can't make him not pick up the phone and call OW.

I'll mention the other site. He hasn't said he doesn't want to post here yet. Thanks again. CV

hang in there CV , you are being wonderful and yes it does take its toll sometimes .

But you made an important statement YOU CAN NOT STOP HIM FROM PICKING UP THE PHONE AND CALLING OW.

this is good that you understand it is nothing that YOU are in blame of , nothing and no a reflection of you .

This N/C can not be forced , but you are only in control of the boundery you set with it .Another words if he continues and contacts her you need to know where to go from there.

PLAN B ect.

HANG in there !DID he say anything about posting here , if he thinks it will help or if he is getting good feed back and understanding?

3isacrowd, the anniversary of his dad's death we were driving to church for a mass of rememberance. He told me that he did think some of you were a bit judgemental about OW. Please don't anyone tell him I told you that. I feel a bit guilty revealing his thoughts about this forum. Anyway he won't post here if he knows I'm spilling what he said. However, he is the fogged out one so I should have some privileges, right?

Anyway, I was laughing at that one. We don't want to be too judgemental of OW, do we now? He did go on to say that he shares or has most of the responsibility for the A. What else? Interestingly enough, the sermon at mass was about not judging anyone. I was thinking, "Darn! This would be the sermon for the day." I'm not ready not to judge OW, the little "B".

He did tell me that he thinks sometimes people write like they know his feelings, but they aren't accurate. Also, that he was told not to talk about his feelings because he is a WS. That's all I've gotten from him. I think he's still posting. I at least see folks are still posting to him.

I'm not sure what I'll do if he calls her again. The shrink said this R has the feel of a very addictive relationship. Now, if he were to actively begin seeing her again that would be a different story. At least he seems to realize that he needs more help, like IC and med eval, to get him through this withdrawal. Shear willpower and my support wasn't doing it.

Thanks for your support. I've seen your name on his thread. CV

CV - yep the sermon sucks LOL OH how people wish for a jeenny in a lamp for 3 wish and they say money, cars home ect.

NOT me ,, I want to get away with murder, then be GOD so I get to meet the one I did it to so I have the almighty power to judge them LOL

OK back to reality (made ya laugh )

I don't know who he is so if I am posting to him don't tell me the name , cause I don't want to be one sided.

Also I don't judge WS after all I had one .
BUT I love judgeing my H XOW .

BE WELL WOMEN !

H asked me to buy him the book the shrink recommended about breaking free from an addictive relationship. He's downstairs reading it as I write. I had this thought. Wonder if he reads it and realizes I'm the addictive relationship? I am the one he hasn't been able to leave for years becomes he's so glued to me? On the description on the book it talks about addictive marriage relationships. If he's still too foggy I can see this book backfiring. Oh great! One more thing to lose sleep over. CV

Funny you should say that you're in an addicting relationship with your H...I often felt that way...like I couldn't live without him.

Our IC/MC said we were co-dependent on each other.

She talked alot about why people fall for certain types...one of the things my H fell for when he fell in love me was my strength...one of the things he disliked the most about me was my control freakishness...how I held everyone around me up to my standard. He's often said to me that no other Human being could be as good and strong as me! Hmmm and all along I tried to control things to keep bad things from happening...oh boy how mixed up we were.

My childhood and personality turned out a type A control freak and his turned him into a passive agressive conflict avoider. A co-dependent match made in heaven...or would that be hell!!

Anyway..IC/MC said we made it work all these years because we were aware of each others troubled childhoods and cut each other breaks...but underneath everything...our behaviour still hurt each other.

She also talked alot about each of being made up of 3 parts...logical/compassionate adult, critical doubter and inner child. Goal of our IC was to help us understand each of these parts of us, how to recognize which one took over in certain instances and how to nuture and "grow up" our inner child.

That's why I think successful recovery takes...IC and MC.

In MC we learned to communciate with each other in a healthy manner...in a technique called mirroring.

So I learned to not be a control freak, he learned to not be passive agressive and a conflict avoider and we learned how to communcate and meet each other's EN's. All these things coupled with a strong desire on both of our parts to recover lead to a quick successful recovery.

One other thing...Plan A doesn't require you to hide your feelings from your H...remember Openness and Honesty are cornerstones of MB philosphy...key is to share your feelings and not have it turn into a LB fest...oh boy that's a hard one!!

If you're interested look up some of Kat's old posts on the recovery board about her Inner Child therapy....can any of the other old timers point her to these old threads??

ForeverTogether, actually I don't think I wrote that last post very clearly. I think that H is very addicted to OW. I don't think our relationshop has that quality to it. My fear was that he might read that book and instead of looking at their relationship as the unhealthy one, he'll look at our marriage that way. Does that make sense? It's my paranoia talking. I've had to say to myself it's just one more thing I can't control. The shrink recommended the book, H is reading it, whatever!

I have been open to him about my feelings. I just realize there are certain things that I have to put on hold until he gets through this withdrawal.if he does. I actually told him that today. I am trying to support him through this process so hopefully this time he won't cave in and break NC.

Thanks for your continued support. I hope your H is talking to him also. CV

Sorry, the above post to FT was written by CV55.

Hi CV,

a couple of things you said jumped out at me...warning: I write novels! you thought your post was long??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

if I'm trying to get across a point to someone, I think it takes a little bit of explaining...these concepts seem simple but are deceptively difficult to actually do in practice...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He told me that he did think some of you were a bit judgemental about OW. Please don't anyone tell him I told you that. I feel a bit guilty revealing his thoughts about this forum. Anyway he won't post here if he knows I'm spilling what he said. However, he is the fogged out one so I should have some privileges, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've come to the conclusion that it is NOT a good idea to tell others about what he's said to you in private...you are trying to provide a safe listening environment which means you keep things between you, unless you have his specific agreement to talk about them...

otherwise CV, YOU are not practicing what you want him to do in future...you are not being honest...

no, you do not have any special "bad" privileges because he was bad...two wrongs do not make a right...

"but he started it!" remember that line? hear it from your kids? do you believe it? accept it?

show leadership here...if you don't, who will??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A little pity would go a long way for him right now </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll back up what Christy said here but rather than "pity", think "compassion"...

{Christy -- I loved your post BTW...}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do have a question about H's posting. For some reason he feels that he isn't supposed to express his feelings on this forum.

He did tell me that he thinks sometimes people write like they know his feelings, but they aren't accurate. Also, that he was told not to talk about his feelings because he is a WS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fair enough...people can be quite judgemental on this site...actually, I hope he checks out the other site mentioned...it is set up precisely to be safe, to support but not enable, and to honestly confront WS without all the judgements...

a lot of WS are scared away by the DJs...if you are saying: "good because what they did was wrong!", then you are missing the point: we really WANT them to learn, regret, face their guilt, and make different choices in life...

we are not here to punish others...

I hope anyone reading this will agree...

here's my take for what it is worth...most WS go through a terrible time in recovery...read 2oak's post for insight...they are very tough on themselves without our help...

prior to this (ie. withdrawal), they can focus on anything and everything else in a desperate attempt to avoid facing the consequences of their actions...

some never will face the consequences...

this has absolutely nothing to do with you, nor is it "fair"...recovery is not about fairness, it is about recovery...

early on in the process, I believe it is safe to say that most of the burden falls on you, the BS...later on the burden must be shared in order for both parties to feel the M is recovering...

but for now, it remains up to you...therefore, how can you turn around your perspective? I assume you want to, that you still want to save your marriage?

if so, then you can try and look at him with compassion, as someone trying hard to break out of an addiction, as someone who cares about you deeply but went completely off the rails and is having to face an enormously hard journey to make it back to a state of health...

you can help or hinder this process...your choice...

if you choose to help, then help with a giving and loving heart...

if you choose to hinder, then I would suggest that you remove yourself from the situation altogether...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H wants to work on our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">remember when you wanted him back? do you remember how desperate you were for him to reach this conclusion?

you have him back now, broken and tattered as he is...now what are you going to do with him?

berating him for being an addict won't help your marriage...complaining about his actions as an addict won't help either...

not fair is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

this is the road you committed to CV...help YOURSELF down the road by ignoring what he's saying, helping him when you can, removing yourself from his presence if it is too painful for you to be there...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said to H, "She's good! Do you realize that is EXACTLY what you told me she said when you were trying to keep the A from becoming physical?" I swear she's doing a perfect Plan B. I actually told H why doesn't he just hire her back and live out his fantasy. He didn't even say he wanted to do that. I was on a roll. He became so agitated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

let me get this straight: he's telling you about his conversation with OW and you are punishing him severely? and you believe this will help in what way? to secure his honesty in future? to shorten his withdrawal period? to make him feel better about choosing you over OW? to regret the A ever happened?

let me see if I can translate into some semblance of WS thinking: "I think you made a big mistake coming back to me...I can't control a darn thing I say or do and you will never live this down...I am going to punish you until the day you die"

my suggestion would be to tell him how you feel, honestly, without belittling him or throwing in any other LBs...

"I'm really hurt by renewed contact but I am so relieved that you are sharing with me...thank you."

I strongly suspect that's about the extent of what you can deal with right now...talking about OW is going to be really painful for you...

come here, tell us how you feel about OW...vent and blow off steam about the basic unfairness of it all...

be very careful not to stew in it though...vent, then take a deep breath, and use the emotional release you've gained to recapture compassion for H...the strength to go yet another day...

take it one day at a time...

honestly: you will avoid a lot of problems for yourself if you can do this...a LOT of problems...believe me when I tell you that you ignore this advice at your own peril...it may FEEL like unfair advice, but your actions are working against you right now...

remember: counterintuitive...

take care of yourself...awed

Awed, everything you said is correct. I am very big on confidentiality, and so I do feel a bit guilty about sharing his thoughts about this forum. I won't do that again. At least he is still posting. I have respected him by not reading his posts, which I don't want to do.

Concerning my LBing night, I chalk that up to being human. I have been so good during all of this. He tells me that almost daily. The LBing came from being lied to for 2 weeks, while I had days of sobbing over how hard his withdrawal was. Little did I know why it was so hard. I was pissed off, and frankly the few times I have LBed it has actually served the purpose of waking him up a bit. I know that's not MB rules, but it let him know he can't continue to mess with me. My well can run dry, and so my giving nature can end.

I am not being vindictive towards him. I am putting my pain on hold so he can hopefully get through this withdrawal and we can maybe recover our M. But it isn't going to happen if he keeps contacting her. I also have not berated him for being an addict. If anything I have told him why I think this is so difficult because of the amount of time they were together.

I just started a new post that explains where I am at currently. I have not LBed since what I wrote in this post. I just hope this will all be worth it one day. Thanks for your wisdom! CV