</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Today was the day WH turned in his keys. I stood my ground--no readmittance unless he gives up OW and gives up booze. (But can I really do the latter--I keep going back to my Al-Anon stuff where we are taught we can't control the actions of others???!!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you are not controlling his actions; you are controlling your own. You will not let him back in your life unless he gives up drinking. You aren't following him around dragging him out of bars and emptying his liquor bottles.

Bullsh*t? Oh yes. We have that in Canada.

Coincidently, much of it comes from our MPs (Minister of Parliment)

dewt

LL - You are developing boundaries, by letting WH know what you will and will not accept. Hang in there.

Try to get the house spruced up so that when he is there watching kids, it will be a pleasant, warm place. You can be the lighthouse without even talking about it.

Today's update:

No calls or texts from WH. Since the police haven't called, I'll assume he's still okay. I did text him with info on DS's bday party tomorrow. He didn't respond. His loss, I guess.

Despite being a little chilly, today ended up being sunny. The flowers and trees are all in bloom so it was beautiful.

Got up early and took the dogs for their annual exams and shots. One loves to go. The other hates it. By the time I got her in the car I'd hit one side of my head on the wall in the house and the other side on the car door as I fell to the ground when she yanked her leash and I slipped on the dewy grass. I'm sure there was at least one neighbor who enjoyed the comedy from some window. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I then spent several hours mowing the lawn. The house looks good from the outside now. It's just the inside that is completely in shambles. I have a waterbed in pieces on my living room floor (sis delivered it today--she got a new bed, so DD is getting the waterbed). The kitchen is filled with dishes because I haven't had time to clean. And I have to completely clean and rearrange DD's room before I can move the waterbed up there.

Tonight was DS's senior prom. I must admit, he and his girlfriend looked absolutely awesome! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> He was in a black tux with a black vest with tiny gold leaves woven into it. His girlfriend was in an ivory satin halter-style dress with irridescent sequins sewn around the neckline. Her dress set off the little bits of gold in his vest and his ivory pocket square perfectly. I'm a proud mom! I took LOTS of pictures. It think I drove them nuts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sent him off in my car tonight since it's nicer and his has a headlight out. It better come back in one piece!

DD, who is WAY too young to be staying out all night, was allowed by her pushover-of-a-mom to go to the school's "after prom" with a junior friend (girl). The girl isn't the greatest example, but I feel sorry for her because she's rather unattractive and didn't have a date, and she just lost her mother to cancer a couple weeks ago. She promised that she and DD would stay safe, so they're off, too.

I'm here trying to clean because I'm going to have company in tomorrow evening for DS's 18th birthday. I went out for coffee at 10:30pm thinking it might keep me awake, but I'm exhausted. I am feeling better since taking the antibiotic, but think the infection in my lymph node kicked my butt.
------------------------------------------------
On the subject of WH and my feelings: This is almost scary but yet I like it. I feel better today (and frankly, have been feeling better over the last couple weeks) than I have since this whole thing began.

So you're all saying...okay, that's great. So?

I still can't really imagine him not being in my life, and I still don't dare look at photos or think of him too much. But I have reached a point where I can honestly say today that I don't want him back if he's just going to come back and drink himself silly and if I can't trust him. I'd rather move on to a new life and hopefully someone who might love me and treat me with respect.

I'm not saying that my love for him is gone. If he turned over a new leaf and I was sure of it, I'd take him back in an instant. And tomorrow I might take a turn the other way and be in tears longing for him. But right now I'm content. It's peaceful in the house. No one is yelling at me for things not done.

(Did I mention that last time he was over dropping things off, he informed me in his sarcastic tone, "You need to mow your yard!!")

This of course still doesn't mean I'm content to spend the rest of my life alone! I don't even know if it means I'm ready to go to Plan B. I just think I've fallen out of Plan A--not because I plan on LBing, but because don't have a desire to call him or suck up to him either. I've been content for the last few days to do my own thing and if he does call--fine, but if he doesn't--fine, too.

LL




LL

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL - Sounds like you are doing better. Hope you can spend 5 minutes a day in each room, doing a little cleaning. Make your home warm and inviting.

Glad the prom went well. I know how exciting it can be. One of my sons went to his and the other one (the surfer) had no interest.

I think you will get stronger and stronger as you work the MB program. Then you will be the lighthouse, showing the way home.

LL

I have been so busy with my own problems and my own WH I haven't caught up on you in a while. You sound so much better than you did two weeks ago. You are doing the turn around finally. I am so proud of you. You are where the rest of us are now. If you can't commit than don't come back. Yes that is a good feeling to have the power finally instead of being in tears everytime they show up. I am with you there. You are doing great. Believer is right clean a little, make it smell good, get some new curtains or something to brighten up the rooms. Even painting a ceiling helps there a little. I just wash my curtains and the whole room looks better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Keep up the good work girl, and remember you are strong, and lovely and you deserve to be happy New Outlook has reminded me about how we forget how great we really are as the BS. So look in the mirror and say to yourself I can do anything, I am beautiful and wonderful.

HINY

I talked briefly w/pastor at church this morning about my decision to not let WH back if he was seeing OW or still drinking. When we finished, I was feeling a little more unsure of everything...

It comes down to this. If his infidelity is the reason I'm keeping him away--fine. If that ends but he continues to drink heavily--my pastor is a lot more uneasy about my decision to not take him back, because God doesn't allow divorce for drinking. He allows it for adultry.

So I'm trying to figure out what my motives are in asking him not to come home unless he isn't drinking. Are they to escape the chaos that comes with it (which isn't a valid reason to split up) or are they because I can't rebuild trust (thus the affair and recovery from it is the underlying issue)?

And the problem is I DON'T KNOW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am truly so scared to let him back in and have everything start all over again that I am pushing him away right now (well, more like just ignoring him--except that I'm not even doing that because he hasn't called since Friday.)

I guess if he came to me and said, "Honey, I truly want to give OW up. I will tell her we're through and try my hardest to commit myself 100% to our marriage because I want to spend my future with you, but I'm having a problem with this drinking thing. Can we work on it after I'm back?" I'd take him back. While I was very unhappy during his heavy drinking periods, I knew Biblically I couldn't leave him and I was content with that. I just worried a lot.

I guess maybe I'm afraid he'll come back but with the attitude that I'd better be kissing the ground that he returned, and each time something goes wrong, he'll remind me he could be with someone else (he used to sarcastically joke about how he could go get some from the OW from his prior A), or he'll stay out each night late drinking and go to his friends' on weekends and drink and won't answer his phone, and I'll worry about where he is, if he's alive, and if he's being trustworthy.

Does that mean it's the A that's the problem, or just the drinking? Is it him with the problem, or is it really me?

See my dilemma??

I'm not depressed right now. I actually feel stronger and more independent than I have in a long time--perhaps ever. (Qualifying that by saying I still DON'T want to spend the rest of my life without a partner).

I'm just saying I'm starting to think that maybe there is someone else out there who could love me and treat me better than I'm afraid he'll treat me, even if he does come back. I have prayed for so many years for a Christian marriage and a H who wasn't unwilling to discuss things of God with me. But if my real reason for not taking him back is just alcohol, it doesn't matter because I can't rightfully divorce anyway.

I want him to come back because he WANTS to come back and rebuild with me. I don't want him to come back just because he's out of choices and sees it as his only option, yet that's what happened with one of the Plan B examples in SAA.

And I guess it doesn't matter his reason for coming back. If he decides he's giving her up and is serious about it, I have to take him back, don't I? Because the adultry is over. There would no longer be justification for a D.

Ugh!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />


LL

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>
And I guess it doesn't matter his reason for coming back. If he decides he's giving her up and is serious about it, I have to take him back, don't I? Because the adultry is over. There would no longer be justification for a D.

Ugh!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />


LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am also confused. Of course you don't have to take him back. I don't understand why you think you have to take him back if he is still drinking. What in the world does that have to do with divorce? The bible talks about DIVORCE, but no one has ever suggested you divorce him so its not the issue. I am not following your logic here, LL.

Of course, this discussion is all for naught anyway, because unless I have missed some recent revelation, he has absolutely no intention of coming back.

LL,

I think the drinking and the affair go hand-in-hand. I would aboslutely refuse to live the rest of my life with an alcoholic unless he could prove to me that he was in recovery (attending AA meetings, abstaining from alcohol).

He's got to make big changes before it is safe for you to let him back in, that is for sure. He needs to be the one meeting with your pastor and trying to work his way back home under your guidelines.

Has your H said he wants to come back home? Are you attending Al-Anon? That would be a good place for you to get help. All respect to your pastor, but even though divorce is only allowed due to adultery, you can certainly separate yourself from an alcoholic spouse.

~ Snow

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

LL, I just don't think he is too worried about this no drinking stipulation anyway. If he wanted to come back, even while drinking, I would bet he knows he could anyway. There is no use telling him that you have relaxed a boundary he didn't take seriously anyway. He already knew that.

All respect to your pastor, but even though divorce is only allowed due to adultery, you can certainly separate yourself from an alcoholic spouse.

Not denying this. I just don't want to live the rest of my life "separated". That, to me, is being in limbo. If I don't have him as a partner (which I think I still want, if he becomes a human being again and convinces me he wants our marriage to work), I want the opportunity to see if there is someone else who might be the Christian H that I have longed for.

I know if I live "separated" for long enough, I will start looking at other men and will myself be a prime candidate for an A even though I believe it is totally wrong. I have been with mt H since I was a teen. There are a lot of things I really like about it. I don't see myself being able to just ignore that men exist from here ever after. I know some women who have become "man-haters" after their D. I don't see myself as one of them.

ML,

WH has eluded a number of times lately about not being happy with OW long term, and thinking he will be able to break it off with her. Has he actually done that? or said for sure he wants to make a marriage with me? No, not unless I've missed something. She was still at his apartment the night before he turned in his keys.

I was going to Al-Anon. I may have to change nights although I liked the Sunday night option the best because it's close and convenient. I've missed the last three, though not just because I'm avoiding. First miss-Easter. Second miss-working outside and forgot. Third miss-took DD to zoo in Omaha. Tonight's miss-it's DS's 18th bday and I'm having people up for a BBQ.

I do need to go back. I did already purchase two of their daily reading books and try to read them at least several nights per week.

Just as a side note: I left a text for WH telling him that the time for the BBQ had changed and asked if he was planning on seeing DS on his bday. No response as of yet. Maybe he's just not checking his phone. I suspect he's at mutual person's house--and I'm NOT calling down there. I get sicker each time I think of all that goes on and of how she betrayed my trust. I'm telling myself, if he truly cares to see DS on his bday, he's a big boy and is capable of calling or stopping.

LL

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:


Not denying this. I just don't want to live the rest of my life "separated". That, to me, is being in limbo. If I don't have him as a partner (which I think I still want, if he becomes a human being again and convinces me he wants our marriage to work), I want the opportunity to see if there is someone else who might be the Christian H that I have longed for. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But as you yourself said, you can't divorce for alcoholism so that is a moot point. But I would point out that having a practicing alcoholic for a H is not having a "partner." It is having a dead man who is owned body and soul by another mistress: alcohol. That is not a marriage, that is a caretakership.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know if I live "separated" for long enough, I will start looking at other men and will myself be a prime candidate for an A even though I believe it is totally wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">huh? So you just want a drunken body on the couch so you won't start looking at other men? I guess I just don't understand what you mean, LL. How will having a drunk in the house otherwise divert you from having an affair? I don't get it.

I know I will kick myself for even wasting my time, but I will tell you something AGAIN that I have told you before.....over and over.

If you go to an AA meeting ask the members what got them there, NONE will say that they woke up one day and magically saw the error of their ways and quit drinking. None will regale you with tales of how they read a book that drinking was bad for you and decided to quit drinking. No. It was nothing like that. We got there from the school of hard knocks.

You will hear:

1. The judge threatened to lock me up
2. My boss told me to quit drinking or I would lose my job
3. My wife kicked me out
4. My H told me it was AA or the highway

You see, alcoholics do not have the luxury of reason and logic like you do, LL. That part of their brain is pickled, it is anesthetized. So they cannot look at the wreckage around them and learn a lesson from it. This is why an alcoholic must HIT BOTTOM before they are willing to sober up. And it is usually the legal system, our family, or our employer that helps us hit bottom.

My point is that your H has no motivation to sober up because there are absolutely no consequences for his actions. He knows how to perfectly play you and knows that there are no boundaries here. In other words, he has no damn reason whatsoever to quit drinking. It would be a blessing if he got caught drunk driving, because then maybe a compassionate judge would throw him in prison for awhile and force him into AA.

According to the rules laid out in the Bible, he has already 'earned' a divorce from you.

The question now is 'are we going to rebuild'. That's a whole new ballgame. You can set whatever parameters for that you want (need) and still be within the boundries of scripture.

dewt

ML,

At my risk of sounding nuts, when he was drinking in the past, we had bad times and good times. He didn't lay on the couch all the time. He just spent a lot of time not home. While having an alcoholic for a husband is not a good thing, I guess having done it all my adult life, I found it more tolerable than being single because at least someone was there with me who took me to dinner, who took care of a lot of things around the house, who went on fun vacations with me, and who is...uh, good in bed unless he's totally wasted drunk. I don't want to live without those things for the rest of my life either. Call me screwed up, I suppose... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
---------------------------------------------

Well all,

He did show up for DS's bday party tonight. He snuck in and upstairs before I knew he was here, and I found him probably 1/2 hour after he arrived, sleeping in the bedroom. I know he didn't want to face people.

But once dinner was ready, DS woke him up and he came down and ate with everyone (my sis & family, my parents, and DS's girlfriend) and people treated him like nothing had happened and he settled in okay. By the end of the evening I think he felt semi-comfortable. He was watching TV and laughing with people.

DS was very pleased with his bday in general. DD was excited her dad showed up. I was just happy that he appeared to be sober and I smelled no alcohol.

Bday party didn't end until 10:30pm and it's over an hour drive from our house to MP's house where our camper is stored. I guess that's where he's staying right now. He asked if it'd be okay if he stayed here tonight. I won't be responsible for asking someone to a bday party and then having them fall asleep on the way home, so said "yes". He's sleeping on the bed right now. I'm going to sleep on the couch.

We got along well, but I asked NOTHING about OW or drinking. I am feeling very guilty now because although it was a very nice night, I don't feel a bit of desire to lay beside him or be close right now. I'm just afraid that it's gone so far that I'll never be able to trust him again. I think that's the big fear. If he comes back, each time he doesn't call, or doesn't answer the phone, or doesn't come home on time, or goes somewhere on a weekend without me (and all these things are a 23 year habit for him), I'm going to start thinking he's somewhere he shouldn't be.

I don't think it's the issue with getting over the sex and whatever from the A, and I'm not sure it's the alcohol problem if it were just a problem with drinking to excess and being annoying. It's a problem with trust. Where does THAT come in in the Bible?

LL

ML,

One more thing I forgot to comment on...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you go to an AA meeting ask the members what got them there, NONE will say that they woke up one day and magically saw the error of their ways and quit drinking. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you.

This holds 100% true with my WH as well. Each time he's been dry for an extended period (by that I mean at least 6 months), it's been prompted by a serious life event (my filing for D during his first A, him having major kidney surgery, his motorcycle accident, etc.)

He's never just walked in the house and said, "Gee, I think it's time for me to quit drinking now."

LL

LL -
How did the party go???

Believer,

Party went very well. My post about it is further up on the page. Too lazy to type too much again. But overall, it was almost like old times. Lots of laughter, joking around from everyone and just good company. DS was very pleased with his bday/graduation gift (a nice Sony LCD computer monitor).

WH seemed to do well last night "fitting back in". He did stay the night here but he slept in the bed and I slept on the couch. By the time I went to bed he was doing his tossing and turning and complaining about his stomach bothering him. He was sweating like crazy. It was hot in the room, but I really believe he was also going through withdrawal because he hadn't had any alcohol yesterday.

This morning--things back to our "new" normal. He had very little to say before leaving. He didn't even come over to the couch to tell me good bye. He just sort of mumbled it from the door. I don't think he was putting on an act for the party, because I can usually tell, but reality must have again for him today.

I did thank him again for coming and thanked him for being sober.

One hurdle down. Three more to go in May (my trip next week to FL, and DS's graduation and graduation reception).

I don't see how I can Plan B in May with all that going on, and I'm running out of steam to keep being nicey-nice. But I don't feel like fighting or accusing. I just feel like ignoring for the most part.

I do admit, I enjoyed the friendship part of his company last night even though there were no feelings of wanting to cuddle or anything. I suppose if he did become human and give the yucky OW up, the love feelings probably would come back in time. I did still feel good having him here. It was comfortable.

I asked nothing last night or today about OW and really nothing about drinking except last night when he was sweating and nervous.

Do I just keep my mouth shut about OW and assume that if he does break things off with her, he'll let me know?

LL

A happy thing (off-topic, though):

I have been working really hard to put my weight back on that I lost when this all started. It is SLOWLY starting to pay off.

I have a pair of slacks that, although I bought them after losing a lot of the weight, became too big when I lost it all. I have been safety-pinning an inconspicuous dart in the waist and wearing a blouse over it.

This morning, I was able to graduate to NO SAFETY PIN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There is hope for my summer wardrobe yet!!

LL

Need encouragement/advice for this latest turn of events:

WH is very uncomfortable living in our camper at mutual person's (MP's) house. He has not come out in words and said "Can I move back?" but has said all he can about how uncomfortable it is and how it's not fair that I'm getting to enjoy the comforts of a home in which 1/2 of everything belongs to him while he lives in the camper.

He did tell me today that he's trying N/C with OW, but his version is just not answering the phone. I want him to tell her he wants to work things out with me and that he will not be contacting her anymore. And I told him - preferably in writing.

He refuses--says he's not going to call and tell her that because I'm backpeddling. He said I told him and told him I want him back and now I'm hedging on the deal. I told him I'm scared to death to let him back without him proving he's done with OW and without him stopping drinking because if he is still drinking, I won't be able to rebuild trust.

So he responds back, "Fine, I should have just taken care of things when I walked out the door in the first place (I think he means D). I don't mean to be a [censored], but I'm not going to live like this forever. I'm going to do whatever it takes to make me comfortable. I shouldn't have to live like this."

Then he proceeds to tell me that MP told him that now that DS is 18, he doesn't have to pay child support. (She is just ALL sorts of help, isn't she? And yet she has been invited by him to DS's graduation reception, so I have to face her.)

I informed him he'd better consult with an attorney on that one. He said, "well it stops once DS leaves for college."

Uh...wrong again. If he goes to college, WH can be socked for up to 1/3 of the college costs. I informed him that might just be more than he's paying right now for child support.

I told him it's not that I don't want him back. I do. But I want to know that he loves me and that HE wants to work on our marriage, no that he just wants to come back because he's uncomfortable or has no other choice.

He got pissed at that statement, too, and told me to ask DS how a man would interpret that coming from a woman. So, when DS got home I did ask--and he said WH is being a "fruitcake".

I don't know what to do. I don't want to lose him on one hand, and feel like I may if he interprets my hesitation as dangling a carrot and then yanking it back from him. But on the other hand, I don't want him back with his present attitude.

I'm afraid he may get so pissed he may file for D and force me to give up the house, because I can't pay for it on my own. I need his support. He also knows 1/2 of my retirement benefits are his, and I have quite a bit. He has none.

I can see myself getting screwed---and not in an enjoyable way.

LL