I haven't power-struggled yet over the car. I just don't like him driving it while I'm gone because I'm afraid of what might happen. I don't even have a set of keys to his truck anymore because he gave them to MP for safe-keeping. But I'll keep my mouth shut on this one and just let him have the car while I'm gone.

As for Plan A, it's difficult when he won't answer his cell phone when I call and doesn't return the call. The only communication I have with him right now is via text messages or on a rare occasion when he calls me.

I will see him briefly tonight. He is supposed to stop by the house later to change a headlight on DS's car. I will do my best to make things calm and comfortable, despite my headache, puffy eye, itchy skin, and general icky feeling due to that stupid med. Any great ideas on winning "brownie points" from a guy who is so uncomfortable he has problems just setting foot in the house now.

(BTW: Dr. is switching me to augmentin for my lymph node infection and telling me to drink apricot nectar so that I don't get diarrea from the med. I want to worry about that when I'm stuck on an airplane next Monday??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Sounds like LOADS of fun. I'm half-tempted to just take my chances and not take the meds and see if the infection goes away on it's own. I'm not sure it's not a virus anyway. It hasn't improved all that much on the stupid other drugs.)

LL

Oops! Double post.

<small>[ May 05, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL, I know what you mean. But be calm tonight. I hope you feel better by next week.

If you see my recent development, I am very very frustrated and mad and sad too.

I do hope you have a good evening.

We just keep swirling faster and faster down the drain....

WH did show up to put DS's headlight in. I could just stop the post there, because that's the only positive thing that happened.

He is angry--very angry--at me and at the world. I tried to remain calm though I'm sure I came across as aloof. I wasn't all warm and cuddly. He made it very clear that his views and my views are very different and that just because I see my requests as reasonable doesn't mean he or anyone else does.

He reminded me that his drinking wasn't a problem 20 years ago before we were married. I reminded him that since that time we had children and grew up.

I explained, again, calmly, that the reason I'm asking him to quit is because if he ends the A, there is a lot of trust to be rebuilt and I don't feel I can rebuild it with drinking still going on because it convolutes his thinking.

He also reminded me that I asked him to leave the house (this is slightly rewritten history as you may know if you've followed my posts. He was already gone every night during January, and was asking for space to "think" so I forced his hand at signing the lease).

And he's angry because he says I wanted him back and now I'm throwing in all these rules. I thought the rules were clear in the beginning, though I admit I did sway back and forth a few times. I may be guilty of confusing him, really.

Before he left, he also reminded me of my incident with the pastor and asked if I'd like for him to tell the kids, since we were discussing HIS issues out in the yard and DD happened to open the door to check on us.

And then he threw how he's not the guy at church. And I had to remind him AGAIN that I cited that merely as an example that there are others out there to MP, and that I'm sorry I did, and that she is twisting it into something it's not.

This whole time I'd not said one word about OW, or asked the status. Finally, after making a comment that he was not going to let anyone make him out to be an A** (he's doing a good enough job himself--no, didn't say that though), he eluded that he was gitting rid of me, and I said (LB coming...) "I didn't ask you to have the affair." He said, "And I'm getting rid of her, too."

If nothing else, this confirms that she is still in the picture along with his drinking. Nothing has changed, even though he's whiny and uncomfortable in the camper.

So tell me again...why is that I'm putting effort into this? He's made it clear that she and the drinking mean more to him than I do. I'm not expecting him to come back and be grief-stricken and sorry. I'm just wanting him to show me he's willing to do his part to try and repair the damage.

I think he's still stuck on the fact that he's the man and no one is going to tell him what to do, even if it is in his and his family's best interest.

Oh, and I got caught in another something that looks really bad to WH but isn't: He picked up the mail one day and got our savings statement. He happened to get the month where I transferred out several thousand $$ in to an account in my name only, so it looks like I"m trying to take his money. It's not his money--it's actually my money. It's the child support piece from his xmas bonus, plus my 1/2 of the tax refund, plus my company bonus. And I transferred it into a new account in case he got angry and decided to pull joint money. I want it for the June vacation and home repairs, car repairs, etc. But now he thinks I'm playing secret money games.

I would post about a rather strange happening earlier tonight and ask for opinions, but for some reason now don't trust MP and am afraid she and/or WH may be on here checking up on me, so will only post what I don't care if they read.

LL

I know they're in a fog. I keep telling myself what Jennifer told me--that he's thinking only with his emotions now and he can't help himself.

But it is hard to not let it knock you on your face when you try to stay calm and reasonable and every other word out of their month is "F" and it's primarily directed at you. I don't think he said one thing to me tonight without a "tone" in his voice.

I will be glad when next week's trip and DS's graduation are over. It really is easier anymore just not talking to him. I like doing texts instead.

LL

LL -

Given his anger, and the new situation with money - you feeling the need to shelter money from him which is rightfully yours, BTW - I think it is time you sought legal advice. This would give you reassurance when you next have to speak to him, if these things come up.

As to the car - if you don't want him to drive it, leave it at a friend's house and do not give him the keys.

Take steps to protect yourself, LL. If you don't, no-one else will.

Praying for you.
LIR

soooo
the plan is to just continue with verbal tangos and feeding into and off of eachothers chaos...

so for the third time the question is asked....(lovingly)...what plan are you in....

you can't have it both ways...
you can't give someone boundaries and then beat them over the head with them....

you can't control any elses drinking...
you can't ask/request him to stay in the house to watch his own children...then try to control anything...
and the more you try to control him..

IF you believe that he will drink if he stays when he watches the kids...then you never should have asked him in the first place...

it is unrealistic....
to try to control what you can not..

and lordslady...you are accountable for your own ifnidelities...and you have some...and it is serious ...

what is your plan for being accountable to those indegressions....
if you defend yourself in that at all...

you need to apoligize sincerely without using any of his behaviors to justify or rationalize yours....

I honeslty don't understand what you are doing...it is a never ending battle between you two like two children..

he said
she said
blah blah blah...

if you want reconcilliation YOU have to do work...not engage in nonsense....not create nonsense....
not perpertrate and continue nonsense...

use your logic....

if you asked him to stay at your house...and can not accept that he right now is who and what he is...YOU never should have asked him....

you are just as much in a fog as he is...
if you think your behaviors are working either...

text message after text
phone message/call after next
face to face after next

all non-productive
all non-marriage building...

when are you going to stop..

and if you dive in to plan b without a good plan a...
bllllucccchhhhh

ARK

I do have past infidelities, and I agree they are serious. I know how easy it is to get pulled into something you never intended when you are weak. I have tried to keep myself accountable. My way of doing that right now--never lie about anything. I do not tell lies. If I do, I feel very guilty. I even feel guilty from lies of omission.

Not telling him years ago about what happened was a lie of omission. When he brought it up, I was truthful. I do question if he and I end up not together, if anyone will be willing to have me after my past is brought to light, and I would do that.

The only thing I will say is that any A is painful, but what I did I did with massive guilt both during and after. I did not want to hurt him. I did my best not to throw things in his face. His A (actually both this one and the one 12 years ago) have been in my face. He finds nothing wrong with walking out on me to be with her, and he even takes her to his friends' and family's houses with no apparent shame. This is what makes me wonder about his commitment level to a marriage.

As for my Plan A, I may be way off base but I really have been trying my best to not engage in battles. However, I don't feel it's wise to back down on the "you need to stop drinking before you come back" issue because if I let him back this way, nothing will change. His statement about not being made to be the "A**" was interpreted by me to mean he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong here and, if alcohol is still involved at it's current leve, he will have no problem doing it again.

I don't EVER want to go through this pain agin. I told him after the 1st one that I wouldn't stick around if it happened again. I guess I was wrong.

But overall I am trying to be nice. I worked hard to keep my voice at a proper level last night, to get him everything he needed to work on DS's car, and offered to cook tacos if he'd stay. He didn't want to.

As for him staying with the kids next week, it wasn't so much that I asked him. It was just the natural assumption by him and by me. I don't have family in the area who could pitch in. I am not aware of anyone else who could stay, unless I asked my parents to come up for three days, and that is difficult with my father the way he is with alzheimers.

I'm fairly certain that WH will drink while in my house. And I'm resigned to the fact that there's nothing I can do about it, thus I haven't even brought it up. Other than morning transportation, there is no reason either child will be in a car with him. DS has a car and a license and can drive DD wherever she needs to go. If DD was more responsible and was a few years older, I'd have just left them by themselves for the time. I mean, DS is now legally an adult. I really want their father there just so they're not alone at night and so that DD has a way to school in the morning. He won't cook. He might or might not buy them fast food.

So, I am trying to be reasonable and not fight. I just think that because I've lost so much steam in this relationship at this point, I'm not coming across as all bubbly and lovey and wanting him back in the worst way anymore.

LL

OK, if you have lost steam and cannot do a stellar Plan A, then it's time to move on.

How much more steam do you have? Can you give it one more go before you leave? Can you drop by with brownies, can you be pleasant and give him a hug. Can you send a message or two that says you miss him. Send him a thank you!

Then when you get back from your trip...Plan B? It's time, you know it, you can feel it, but you had to get here before you could do it. Then get on the Plan B support thread.

Go see a lawyer to straighten out the child support and finances...time to sell the camper before it gets trashed...

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

then I don't understand...

you made arrangements for him to come to your house and watch the kids while you go away on business...and now you are telling him he can't drink while he does this...

but the reality of his drinking existed long before you asked him to come stay...
you never should have asked him in the first place...as this was all set up and doomed to fail.....

ark

I hope you don't misunderstand me...

reconcilliation is way different than him watching the kids for a few days while you are on business....

are you applying the same boundaries for staying in your house watching the kids...as you are to reconciliation because I don't think they are the same...

you knew what exact behaviors to expect from him when you asked him to watch the kids...and if you expected to change or control his behaviors then you were wrong here ....

do you think this man will drink and drive with your children
do you think he will put your children at any risk...
if you answer yes then seek other routes for the kids....

if you believe he will behave himself for three days...then plan A your butt up to and while he is home...

make going back to that camper more depressing than the thought of chocolate being made illegal...

ARK

Ark,

Yes there are different rules for the 3 days with the kids than for reconciling. I would like him not to drink, but I have NOT asked him not to while he takes care of the kids. It is not a requirement for that time period. It IS a requirement for reconciling.

Will he drive drunk with them. If they get in the car with him, maybe. But DS drives his own car and DD probably will have no need for a ride except to school in the morning, and he'll still be sober then.

I don't expect to control his behaviors while he's watching the kids (except that I DO expect him not to bring OW to our house). Maybe I shouldn't make the drinking thing a stipulation of reconciliations either? But if I don't, how do I learn to trust him again? How do I know that he won't go out drunk some night and decide to see OW again?

SHMI,

Can you drop by with brownies, can you be pleasant and give him a hug. Can you send a message or two that says you miss him. Send him a thank you!

Not sure where to drop the brownies. I WON'T go to MP's place to see him in the camper. I'm feeling mighty good not speaking to her anymore.

I can send the messages. I can send him a thank you for working on DS's car.

Hugs...a little tougher, too, because when I move close to him, he moves away. I don't want to force something on him.

I have actually spoken to an attorney a couple months ago. I know what would need to happen, but it would take a legal separation or filing for a divorce to force the child support issue. There is an agreement he can sign voluntarily that would allow child support to be withdrawn from his paycheck, but I'm not sure he'd agree, because now he still has control. Then he wouldn't.

I'd like to sell the camper, but since he's living in it and it's in both our names, I'm stuck there, too, unless we legally separate or D. That's really the only way to force things to happen with our assets, unless he again voluntarily agrees to sell it. If I get him to agree to sell it, I'm sure it would involve him coming home to live. If he's still seeing OW and still drinking, I don't want that. Too painful. I like him better out.

How do I Plan B with graduation and reception (2 different days) coming up? Ideas? He has to be at both, and we have to be social, at least at the grad reception at the house.


LL

LL, your issue is to hard for me to give you any advice. Send you my prayer.

BTW, how to you edit/change the existing topic ?

LNH,

I read some (not all) of your posts as well as your email. You are going through the same pain I was going through before my WH moved out, when he said he was going to break things off and was working on it, but each night would either be gone all night or would come home at midnight and just drop in bed and fall asleep. He didn't sneak, though. He just did whatever he felt like doing.

It hurt so bad I could barely work, could barely concentrate because all I could think each night was "Is he coming home? Is he safe? (because I worry about drinking and accidents). Is he with her--what are they talking about--what are they doing? What if he leaves me for good? Why is he doing this?"

Once he moved out, I was freed from those sleepless nights. I've not had a great deal of trouble sleeping since he left, because I no longer expected him to come home. The wondering was over.

However, I had pain for a long time after that.

And now I'm finding a new problem. I went from thinking I couldn't live without him and missing him terribly to really not missing him at all and not caring if he does come back -- in about TWO DAYS TIME! When it happens, it happens very quickly. I'm having a hard time putting my all into a Plan A. I'd rather just ignore him completely. So I'm learning the hard way that when you start to get really frustrated, it's probably best to Plan B then.

I definitely wasn't ready back in February when I initially tried it. But I am almost past ready now. I should have done it March 31, once I found out he didn't end contact with OW. I might have more love left for him now if I had done it.

But I know because Jennifer told me his love can come back, that mine can, too, if he really decides to commit to the marriage and start meeting my EN's.

-------------------------------------------
As for changing the subject line, that is easy. Go to the very first post of the thread. When you have it open, click on the icon of the pencil writing on the paper (I think it says "edit" if you hold your curser over it). At that point, you can get to the subject line.

I did find out you can only edit it for a period of time. I tried a couple days ago to change mine again and couldn't anymore. The time had elapsed.

LL

Okay, I laid down tonight for a while because this stupid allergic reaction to the meds and the itchy hives I have is making me bonkers.

I was in that place between awake and asleep and my mind was wandering and I found myself thinking about WH. I do still care. I do feel a sadness and a longing for what's not here anymore. I realize that what I miss are the memories, and that he may never be that person again, and that we had a lot of bad memories that I tend to forget in leiu of the good ones. But I do still have feelings and want the best for him. They're just mixed with a ton of anger and hurt right now at who he's become.

He's always been selfish and immature. It's always been a little difficult. People have asked me for years how (and why) I put up with him. I always responded, "Because I love him."

But he's that times 100 right now. Each time I'm around him he gets in a few more jabs as I try to stay cool, calm, collected, and caring. He's really worn me down. It's like he's so angry at me it's his mission to cause as much pain as he can. I wonder if he's causing the pain because I have unknowingly made his life so miserable through the years and now he's getting back at me?

I guess I'm posting just to acknowledge to myself that there are still feelings for him. I have just set boundaries (finally) and set them so solidly that I may be forcing him away forever.
Am I expecting something out of him that is impossible?

LL

Maybe it is impossible...

That would be very sad.

But... you have to realize that you deserve a sober, faithful husband. And while it may be impossible for him, it is not an unreasonable thing for you to ask or expect.

I hope you realize that...

I really hope you do.

I feel for you in regards to the jabs. That isn't fair or right... I pray for patience for you and the fortitude to let those jabs roll right off your back. Just remember that it's his guilt speaking and you are getting the brunt of what he's not pointing at himself.

dewt

dewt

Dewt,

Maybe that's what I was asking...not is it impossible, because who knows for sure, but is it unreasonable?

I did ask him that very question last night after he finished DS's car. His response was the comeback about how 20 years ago his drinking sure wasn't a problem for me.

This is where the dilemma lies...

He's right. I was 19. I was drinking right along with him. We weren't married. We weren't parents. I wasn't a Christian. Most of our dating life centered around drinking, hanging out with friends, or making love. It seemed fine at the time.

Fast forward a few years: We got married, had kids, and somewhere in there I found Christ. Thought he did, too. Now not so sure, but not my place to judge the heart.

I gave up the drinking and partying when I got pregnant with DS. And my behaviors have continued to change over time as I grew as a Christian.

On the other hand, WH is still for the most part, stuck at 19.

So I'm trying to bring him along into responsible adulthood and fatherhood and hoping for a caring marriage partner, and I often question if it's really me who is in the wrong because he's not the one who changed. I did.

He married who I was at the time. I am no longer that person. I married him and he really still is the same person, although his anger has increased over the years and taken over his good sense of humor, and he continued to spend less and less time with me in leiu of spending it with his friends who still live like he does with the drinking and recreational drug use.

So I ask myself...who is really in the wrong here? Maybe it is, in fact, me who is 99% to blame.

The question: Is it my responsibility then, to just accept him for who he is with the alcohol, off-and-on meth use, internet porn, and his habit of staying out late and not calling to check in? This is (if you take away the meth and substitute Hustler magazines for internet porn) the man I married at 19, for better or for worse.

I'm thinking too much again...

LL

Nope, won't believe it, nobody is THAT much to blame...

OK, so you changed the rules as the M went on...yep, that's what happens. That's one of the reasons we fall out of love...we are both changing each day.

So he has a decision to make, and let me tell you sister, he is feeling GUUUUIIIIILLLTY about his lifestyle now. His anger towards you is not about YOU, it's about HIS guilt and anger at himself. Are you being unreasonable? (heavy sarcasm) yes, we all want a drunker, adultering sot for a H, when you're done with him can I have him?

He knows what he is doing is wrong, and his anger is all about the child inside of him, stomping his feet not wanting to do the work he knows he needs to do to make the changes in his life...no one can make it for him...he's got to do it on his own...and he knows it.

Plan B seems inevitable...it will give him time to work on this alone, not have you to blame (how can he if you are not effecting his life). Go through the DT's and traumatic life change of figuring out why he drinks (dealing with the buried emotions) and getting rid of the OW, and he's got to do it alone...

It will give you time to stay out of the chaos, the drama, not get baited into arguments so he can use you as a verbal punching bag when he feels like beating himself up instead.

It will give him a chance to look at his pathetic life...a 40 year old man living in a camper, drinking himself silly, and cavorting with a worthless OW...acting 19 again. Losing the respect from everyone but the unrespectable...

Did I say it will give you time to relax?

But it will be important to not engage. Each time you meet, talk, text, you are fulfilling LU$ in his LB$ and it enables him to keep sitting on the fence a little longer. Stay DARK!!! And when those shallow, hollow LU$ are getting filled by OW he will begin to be STARVED for you and WANT to make those changes!!! or not!!! And there is always the chance the WS will not pull their head out of their behind...and I'm sorry. That's your greatest fear. That's what the sadness and mourning is about now, preparing for that...

But spend time in Plan B with a good book, lots of activities, spending time with the kids, and going on about your life...it's time for LL. It's time for LL to get to know herself, instead of being tangled with a man... This is an opportunity.

Graduation and other events in May? It's not like at these events you really talk with him. And in Plan B you can very handily ignore him and MP, but have 911 on speed dial in case there is drink and one or the other get out of hand. No need to say anything to them...no need to stand and take verbal abuse either. Get an ally or two early on at the party that can watch out for you and save you...

OK, so you changed the rules as the M went on...yep, that's what happens. That's one of the reasons we fall out of love...we are both changing each day.

True, but I don't want to change them back again and he doesn't want to move forward. We're sort of stuck.

yes, we all want a drunker, adultering sot for a H, when you're done with him can I have him?

Certainly. I'll even provide the ventilated box and pay for shipping. Where do you live?

It's time for LL to get to know herself, instead of being tangled with a man... This is an opportunity.

This is what everyone keeps telling me. I admit staying busy (especially doing physical things) does help and spring and warmer weather has been beneficial. I still don't really have friends to do things with though. I still think a lot about what WH and I used to do together (the cycle rides, dinners out, etc) that I can't do easily on my own.

And in Plan B you can very handily ignore him and MP, but have 911 on speed dial in case there is drink and one or the other get out of hand.

My sister who is 5'11", larger than me, and afraid of very little, has already offered to "escort" them to my door if either of them causes problems.

My latest development is that my cell phone has gone missing as of last night. I am afraid my DD took it downtown with her and lost it. Expensive mistake if it doesn't show up, but it also makes communicating with WH more difficult as text messaging (which has worked well for us) is no longer an option.

I had to call him today from my work phone to make sure he was set to pick up DD from school at noon. It's not an every-Friday deal so it's easy for him to get messed up on the dates. Surprisingly, he answered, but was VERY cold and aloof. I tried to make small talk to no avail. I finally told him I was thinking of him. He just answered a cool "uh-huh.."

I'm not going to bother him again until I have to coordinate his kid-watching and my trip-going Monday morning.

I do fear him not pulling his head out of his behind, and that's a very painful thought. But if he really does, I also am not sure I want him back for fear he will change back again.

LL

Lordslady -

Glad you are still doing ok. Hang in there, you can do this. It is a long, hard road we travel, but things will get better. Hugs to you.